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@Glau , the whole thing about staff is to make Fog based spells easier by one category. Whispers are fog based apparition. If there is any apparition which can be discounted by our staff, it's that. And, well, if it is, who wouldn't want to be able to cast a Pit of Shades somewhat reliably, even if they aren't a Battle Mage. Being able to cast a Pit of Shades is reliably is just a nice thing to have in your back pocket.
 
I don't necessarily want this to be our BM, but in general I do expect that the next time we know we'll end up in a big battle it'll probably be too late by then to make/learn more BM.

Once we're done with the Riders, I wouldn't mind putting in some AP now and then to make a Mist/Fog BM. We've got some good possibilities at this point.
 
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The expectation that we will know before hand that we are about to go support war effort, and that we will have time to learn/make some battle magics for it, seems optimistic at best.
 
I know a lot of people are talking about binding a Whispering Darkness, but there is a very important question we must answer before going after it: how would we subdue it for binding? It's not like you can punch a cloud into submission. Well, not normally. Maybe magic hands can punch out fog. But if Johann can't, what would we do?
 
I know a lot of people are talking about binding a Whispering Darkness, but there is a very important question we must answer before going after it: how would we subdue it for binding? It's not like you can punch a cloud into submission. Well, not normally. Maybe magic hands can punch out fog. But if Johann can't, what would we do?
Make a magic vacuum?

If Jades use it then there must be some way.
 
I know a lot of people are talking about binding a Whispering Darkness, but there is a very important question we must answer before going after it: how would we subdue it for binding? It's not like you can punch a cloud into submission. Well, not normally. Maybe magic hands can punch out fog. But if Johann can't, what would we do?
That's a good question. Our books on apparitions should have some information on how to deal with a Whispering Darkness that's hunting you, which would probably give us some ideas.
 
Also no, being able to affect two completely different parts of the battlefield at once is not "a small benefit."
In a world where orders are send by message rider to be shouted at the troops being able to intervene across the field is worth it's weight in gold.
Again, [citation needed] for the long difference in time between a penumbral pendulum's casting time vs a BM charge cast. The difference is that the Pendulum does its damage quicker than the charge does.

Also, Penumbral Pendulum and Pit of Shades both also do stuff at range? So the second sentence isn't helping your case much here.

Duel has the way higher chance that whatever priority target we choose it got a way to deal magic damage. The big thing our riders can do is not care about any nonmagical attack. If we send some to break a formation they have virtual no way to deal with it aside from calling in magical support.
You completely ignored the list of shortcomings I provided. Every spell has drawbacks. An appararition's draw back is that you withstand the hit, dodge, or kill it (yes, killing it is rare). This is a slightly more ergonomic screwdriver when again, you are missing a saw. Even making the caster waste time casting to deal with the apparation, or have to fight it in melee, is still a benefit to a dueling spell, a spell type that is completely absent at the BM level from the grey wizard spellbook.
 
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Ok. When is he coming, and where are they going to be attacking?

This feels like wishful thinking honestly. The answers to that could very well be "Right now" and "he's attacking now".

Cause at that point I don't feel an argument like "Mathilde needs to study battle magic instead of going to battle and helping save lives right now".
 
OK, I have finally made it through the thread. Y'all are chatterboxes (he says, openly hypocritically).

After reading all the discussion, I'm content with my knee-jerk reaction of Bodyguard/One. The fact that we've still got Gambler activation ready to help determine spell difficulty is a strong incentive for One, because the odds of nailing it enough to be FC are better, and that makes it part of a basically safe buff suite to be applied out of combat and even in combat: the combo of "invoke Apparition + weave that into a smoke and mirrors + teleport into position for a gank + Apparition pops out to help when we engage our target + repeat until we have enough salsa for a party" seems really good for our fighting style.

As for Bodyguard, people have made sad noises about the Dammerlichtreiter form, or the Rider in Red in general, not being ideal for that, and I see the argument but also I don't think it's a big deal? It's not like "mounted combatant" is bad fighting in extended melee: from the top of a horse is a great place to be swinging a sword because you have easier access to your opponent's vital areas and are attacking at angles that are more awkward for them to defend from. There are a lot of historical reasons why cavalry getting bogged down at low speed engagements was bad for them, but they mostly don't apply here: the "horse" isn't a real horse, the "rider" can't be knocked off and made vulnerable, and if the apparition gets "killed" it just goes back to Mathilde's soul until recast. Besides: in situations where we want the Apparition defensively, a person on a horse is great for that because it's a large target. Attacks trying to "kill" the Rider are attacks not trying to kill Mathilde, giving us breathing room to bug out or re-engage from a more favorable position, depending on our tactical goals. One hope a lot of us had for this spell was "disposable meat shield," and the current design has a lot of meat.

So yeah, I didn't vote for this design in the last vote but I don't think we've screwed ourselves or anything, I'm pretty happy with how this is all coming together.
 
I don't necessarily want this to be our BM, but in general I do expect that the next time we know we'll end up in a big battle it'll probably be too late by then to make/learn more BM.

Once we're done with the Riders, I wouldn't mind putting in some AP now and then to make a Mist/Fog BM. We've got some good possibilities at this point.

Agreed on this. This doesn't need to be our BM... but we will need BM at some point due to the challenges we take on, and likely soon.

People need to stop being that risk averse in this particular niche.
 
Again, [citation needed] for the long difference in time between a penumbral pendulum's casting time vs a BM charge cast. The difference is that the Pendulum does its damage quicker than the charge does.

Also, Penumbral Pendulum and Pit of Shades both also do stuff at range? So the second sentence isn't helping your case much here.
...ok so you didn't understand what I mean. A rider that does the [charge] is independent as in you cast it once and he goes off on his own, letting you (the wizard) do another spell on someone else without having to control the rider. Two actions on the battlefield with one wizard at the same time. Also you can't dodge the rider, or more specifically you can, you just need to do it till the battle is over because he comes back. Until that unit is dead or of the field he will target said unit.

As for not having a saw? You can also send a [charge] rider to target a person, it just won't target until death but until "broken or off the field"
Which is good enough in my book.
 
After reading all the discussion, I'm content with my knee-jerk reaction of Bodyguard/One. The fact that we've still got Gambler activation
I don't think the gambler will help here, boney did explain (and we got to see it with row) that ranald can't really help you with magical spell crafting and paperwork.
So if you have a way for ranald to tip the scales so that we get it below bm threshold then great but otherwise I would not hope for too much.
 
...ok so you didn't understand what I mean. A rider that does the [charge] is independent as in you cast it once and he goes off on his own, letting you (the wizard) do another spell on someone else without having to control the rider. Two actions on the battlefield with one wizard at the same time. Also you can't dodge the rider, or more specifically you can, you just need to do it till the battle is over because he comes back. Until that unit is dead or of the field he will target said unit.
[Citation needed]. Basically, you are arguing that it works that way, and not as a single charge through, then needs to be recast, based on what evidence?

I can assure you it isn't going to last indefinitely, none of the other apparition spells seem to in Warhammer Battles nor in total war.

As for not having a saw? You can also send a [charge] rider to target a person, it just won't target until death but until "broken or off the field"
Which is good enough in my book.
Again [citation needed]. We don't exactly know how that will work.

I don't think the gambler will help here, boney did explain (and we got to see it with row) that ranald can't really help you with magical spell crafting and paperwork.
So if you have a way for ranald to tip the scales so that we get it below bm threshold then great but otherwise I would not hope for too much.
When did Boney say this?
 
I don't think the gambler will help here, boney did explain (and we got to see it with row) that ranald can't really help you with magical spell crafting and paperwork.
So if you have a way for ranald to tip the scales so that we get it below bm threshold then great but otherwise I would not hope for too much.
It will apply:
Hey @Boney can you confirm or deny the coin applying to the "how difficult is this spell" dice roll? Just want that locked down either way.
Confirm.
 
I just don't want a BM that got no synergy with Mistery.

If Riders had synergy with Mistery, I'd be voting for Battle Magic version.
Yeah, which is why we should gather up a band of Whispers, who are misty, and make our own Pit of Shades! With Apparitions and Not!Daemonology! :V
 
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I don't think the gambler will help here, boney did explain (and we got to see it with row) that ranald can't really help you with magical spell crafting and paperwork.
So if you have a way for ranald to tip the scales so that we get it below bm threshold then great but otherwise I would not hope for too much.
The coin absolutely does apply to spell crafting, we did it with Rite of Way too on turn 32. You're thinking of codifying, which did turn out to be just paperwork, but we're still in the spell creation phase.
 
We are extremly unlikely to have the AP for training and even we could scrounge the AP we would have subpar training chances as Melkoth would be busy with his duties as Provost.

Disagree on several levels. This is exactly the sort of situation where we *would* prioritize spending the AP, because nothing is going to prepare is better for armies clashing than learning battlemagic. I'm treating this as the expected content of the self-improvement turn we always do when we are scared of an upcoming fight.

And we already know Melekoth's BM, pit and pendulum can be learned from someone with a better grasp of them in particular.

I don't know, did we expect to suddenly lead the combined dwarf expedition against literally all remaining foes in k8p? Because I certainly didn't.
So let's do it the other way around, can you guarantee us that we never will fight in a big army battle? Come one that one should be easy, it's what your whole premise is build upon!

Sure. We aren't going to fight in a big army battle for several turns.

How do I know?

We'd need two things for a big army battle: an army that we are attached to, and an army that we are going to fight. Neither of those things appear without quite a bit of forewarning. And since we need both at once....

Brettonia isn't going to be that bc we aren't part of their army, we're going to be a scout/assassin. Dark elves aren't coming in army size right now. Chaos is occupied with itself. Dwarfs are still ramping up and will be for a few more years. (Ironically might already be committed elsewhere when the chaos armies attack.)

@Glau , the whole thing about staff is to make Fog based spells easier by one category. Whispers are fog based apparition. If there is any apparition which can be discounted by our staff, it's that. And, well, if it is, who wouldn't want to be able to cast a Pit of Shades somewhat reliably, even if they aren't a Battle Mage. Being able to cast a Pit of Shades is reliably is just a nice thing to have in your back pocket.

It is. So is a unicorn. I view the unicorn as more likely than a reliable pit or pendulum, so I'd like to spend AP actually doing things we can do now rather than preparing to do something in a rare situation that might happen eventually sometime.

Apparitions I'm interested in from a creating new spells perspective much more than a mor BattleMagic perspective.

The expectation that we will know before hand that we are about to go support war effort, and that we will have time to learn/make some battle magics for it, seems optimistic at best.

Because armies are called up, organized, and sent to fight on a time scale of days rather than months, or what?

I feel like it's a safe assumption.

This feels like wishful thinking honestly. The answers to that could very well be "Right now" and "he's attacking now".

Cause at that point I don't feel an argument like "Mathilde needs to study battle magic instead of going to battle and helping save lives right now".

But the answers are much more likely to be "a few years" and "he's attacking Naggaroth/Cathay".

So until there's a reason to believe we are going to be supporting an army against another army in the near future, and that reason is solid enough to convince the emperor to start calling up armies, I'm not going to treat it as a live possibility.
 
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[Citation needed]. Basically, you are arguing that it works that way, and not as a single charge through, then needs to be recast, based on what evidence?

I can assure you it isn't going to last indefinitely, none of the other apparition spells seem to in Warhammer Battles nor in total war.

[ ] [BEHAVIOUR] Charge
The Rider will appear at your location and charge towards a specific group of people, and will engage them until it is slain or the group is destroyed or shattered.

Again [citation needed]. We don't exactly know how that will work.

You could, but trying to Duel a group would have them laser-focus on one person in the group, and trying to Charge an individual would make that person much more able to get away by fleeing or seeking shelter in a group.

When did Boney say this?
on that last one i was wrong. so fair enough.
 
[X] [BEHAVIOUR] Charge

I think there's an interesting psychological interpretation of Bodyguard, especially with it being in the guise of the Damelictreiter. A mystical protector arriving in the nick of time to save the life of the caster, always on time, always there to watch your back. To be there to protect someone even in the thick of the fighting. Almost like Mathilde with Abelhelm. How she tried to be there, even at the end.

I'm still going to vote for Charge though. It strikes me as Battle Magic that would be useful in a variety of situations. Bodyguard can only be used to protect Mathilde and support her in what she's doing, but the ability to send out even a small number of Riders to attack somewhere else can be used to harass, distract, or decimate an enemy's flank. It could be used to buy time and distance when retreating from a scouting or assassination. It just strikes me as a more versatile spell.
 
Why is it more likely the eventual Everchosen will be attacking Naggaroth or Cathay?

The list of possible Everchosen is going to be fairly Old World centric.

Because of the three possible places to attack, the old world is 1/3 of them.

And we really don't know who or what is actually in the chosenbowl, much as we can guess.

So until we get more reliable information than a plotter demon, I'm going to treat the everchosen like a far future (4-5 turns out at least) problem.
 
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