Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Mopman43]

Wait, I just read this properly, Gnomes? What the heck are Gnomes? Did they make the Halflings again? What do you mean they made secret evil halflings-

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Gnomes we're a thing way, way back in the pre-4th edition days, the 80s, the 1st edition Roleplay era, where they were a sub-species of Dwarfs that were more magically bent.

A fair amount of 4e Roleplay has been dedicated to bringing back old 1e concepts, so one adventure book detailed the Gnomes- no longer any connection to Dwarfs, but a race of natural Ulgu casters that people often mistake for Halflings.

(I also don't believe if they've even reappeared since the one book they were in, so they might have been dropped again)

Boney has expressed before that his principle issue with them is that the 4e writers created a race of secretive Ulgu wizards that keep to themselves and stay hidden from the world, and had them living in the southern Middenland swamps, probably one of the busier parts of the Empire.

If they were out living somewhere that gets less traffic, Forest of Shadows or something, it'd be less of an issue.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

I'd argue their even more advanced then the dwarfs because they don't have compunctious about inventing, testing and using new stuff.

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And yet the Dwarves are the ones with reliable helicopters.

 

[Tobtorp]

They did manage to have a succesful space program.
Which is not nothing.

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They are the closest to "modern" tech any of the races of whf have managed.

Mostly through being totally ok that your inventory blow themselves up to test a thing.
It's like the thing with pressure vessels, we could have found successful designs way earlier but the unsuccessful designs kept blowing up the guys willing to try.

 

[Dragonofelder]

If they were out living somewhere that gets less traffic, Forest of Shadows or something, it'd be less of an issue.

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Maybe that's what they want you to think...

 

[Somic]

I'd argue their even more advanced then the dwarfs because they don't have compunctious about inventing, testing and using new stuff.

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They don't have the entire Runecraft tech branch, which has some great possibilities - but the best of those have been lost...

...but the Skaven are also hampered by their disorganization and disregard for safety and reliability. That creative energy could've gotten them a lot further if they could actually cooperate and follow anything like sane rules.

 

[NSMS]

Skaven technology has three basic results:

• It fails and kills the user.
• It fails and kills the maker.
• It works in a way that massively surpasses what conventional technology of the same level can manage... while still occasionally killing the user and maker.

With no real in-betweens.

 

[emberwing]

Wait, I just read this properly, Gnomes? What the heck are Gnomes? Did they make the Halflings again? What do you mean they made secret evil halflings-

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My personal headcanon for the gnomes if ever used in one of my campaigns is that they're the wizard equivalent of halflings, all immediately exiled into the empire as they are want to do with their criminals and that Gnome is just a hafling insult/witch equivalent.

But like dragonofelder said they keep getting added and removed and are naturally tuned to Uglu, they're not quite evil (usually) but do seem rather skittish and often pretend to just be halflings.

 

[Tobtorp]

And yet the Dwarves are the ones with reliable helicopters.

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Which is nuts, where a plane uses the laws of physics and aerodynamics to fly a helicopter goes "fuck you fuck you fuck you" at the speed of it's Rotorblades.

Skaven technology has three basic results:

• It kills the user.
• It kills the maker.
• It works in a way that massively surpasses what conventional technology of the same level can manage... while still occasionally killing the user and maker.

With no real in-betweens.

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And because they have the highest replacement rate of any race it actually works out statistically. If you got a 1 in a million chance to invent it and the rest is death then Skaven throw 1 million and 1 at it...

 

[Dragonofelder]

My personal headcanon for the gnomes if ever used in one of my campaigns is that they're the wizard equivalent of halflings, all immidietly exiled into the empire as they are want to do with their criminals and that Gnome is just a hafling insult/witch equivalent.

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I like this idea and might steal it at some point, sorry not sorry.

 

[LawsOfRobotics]

@mathymancer thanks for sharing your theories, I find them interesting. I am trying to connect your points about the Flame of Ulric to what is in Cd-3 and the Making of the World. I have some wild speculation to try to connect the dots:

If each leader of a city had access to an artifact that generated a sacred flame like you suggest, it could be part of a defense system for each city. If Qt-1 was originally Asuryan, they would be in charge of Qt and therefore would have access to this Old One artifact that generates the sacred flame. Maybe Qt-1 was killed and a different Old One mantled Asuryan (Cd-3 cough cough) to take control of the defense system, and save the day in the fight against Chaos. If Cd-2 was Ulric, he could have been given control of the equivalent system for Cd. Though if Cd-1 was Taal (or Morr?) and is noted to be "ruthless when They have to be" I am not sure why they would delegate control of a weapon. Maybe Cd-1/Taal had grouped up with the others in Qt, and when Cd-2/Ulric came down from the north he returned to Cd first and took the flame then.

The question then becomes why the Flame of Ulric is in Middenheim and how all this ties into the creation of Middenheim. The description of Cd in Cd-3 and the Making of the World as a densely-wooded plateau seems like a better fit for Karak Norn. Ulric is described as shattering the top of the mountain with his fist. Maybe Cd-2/Ulric brought the defense system from Cd north during the war, and used it to break the top of the mountain that would become Middenheim, either during a battle or for some other reason. The defense system was then left there for some reason, and is now just the sacred flame.

There are a lot of assumptions in there so there is a high chance that this whole theory is nonsense. Are there any other notable flames in Warhammer lore that would line up with the other cities? Iz would be some Lizardman flame in Lustria. Zl would be in the Southlands and Cl would be in Cathay both probably don't have enough lore for something like that. Maybe we will find something in the notes and rubbings we are going to study? Maybe there is some pyramid like structure we will notice if we check out Karak Norn and the Bugman's Brewery Nexus?

 

[emberwing]

I like this idea and might steal it at some point, sorry not sorry.

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please do, the worst part is that in 4e the gnome statline and special rules are kinda fire

 

[Tasoli]

And because they have the highest replacement rate of any race it actually works out statistically. If you got a 1 in a million chance to invent it and the rest is death then Skaven throw 1 million and 1 at it...

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IT is also a matter of population in that bigger population might gather more resources, wheter by mining or trading etc.

 

[Redshirt Army]

There are a lot of assumptions in there so there is a high chance that this whole theory is nonsense.

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Y'know, we talk a lot about Ranald/Cd-3 being the one to mantle Asuryan, but there's no actual evidence of that other than "it sure sounds like a Ranald thing to do."

What if Cd-2/Ulric was the one to pick up Asuryan's controller after Qt-1/Asuryan got killed?

It's a little bit too cute - we can't assume that every time some cult rearranges the credit for a myth to promote their god that it hints at some deeper truth - but it would provide an alternate explanation for the Asuryan/Ulric's flame connection.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Y'know, we talk a lot about Ranald/Cd-3 being the one to mantle Asuryan, but there's no actual evidence of that other than "it sure sounds like a Ranald thing to do."

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I thought it was a given that Ranald mantled Loec, not Asuryan? Since they're practically the same person?

 

[Andres]

Was the Eternal Flame silver before WFRP 4e? If so, then it'd be different from the flame Asuryan has.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I thought it was a given that Ranald mantled Loec, not Asuryan? Since they're practically the same person?

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The Loec and Ranald connection is pretty obvious, yes, but there was also long-standing thread madness bit where we speculated that Ranald dressed up as Asuryan after he got killed and that that's what he was doing during the coming of Chaos.

Lemme dig up some quotes.

 

[mathymancer]

Are there any other notable flames in Warhammer lore that would line up with the other cities?

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Not that I'm aware. Fire Mouth is volcano worshipped by the ogres, that's could fit Cl is you ignore the fact that a volcano isn't an ever-burning flame. I guess Esmerelda's symbol is a triangle above a line, representing hearth and home, and a triangle is kind of like a pyramid, and the hearth is a place where flames burn...yeah no, that's probably nothing.

The question then becomes why the Flame of Ulric is in Middenheim and how all this ties into the creation of Middenheim. The description of Cd in Cd-3 and the Making of the World as a densely-wooded plateau seems like a better fit for Karak Norn. Ulric is described as shattering the top of the mountain with his fist. Maybe Cd-2/Ulric brought the defense system from Cd north during the war, and used it to break the top of the mountain that would become Middenheim, either during a battle or for some other reason. The defense system was then left there for some reason, and is now just the sacred flame.

There are a lot of assumptions in there so there is a high chance that this whole theory is nonsense.

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Yeah, the myths don't quite line up. LUMW actually gives some geographical details on where the battle is taking place - it's in Norsca, and after Ulric summons his flame He also asks Manann to drown the field, which leads to the creation of the Sea of Chaos. This doesn't add up to the flame being in Middenheim, which is much further south. Even if we assume that LUMW misidentified the exact location of the sea and the battle, if the myth is remotely accurate we would still expect the flame to be somewhere near a coast.

Maybe there is some pyramid like structure we will notice if we check out Karak Norn and the Bugman's Brewery Nexus?

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It should be noted that the Sacred Flame of Ulric isn't associated with any pyramid. Also pyramids seem like a pretty common Old One motif, so finding one in Cd won't really prove anything.

Was the Eternal Flame silver before WFRP 4e? If so, then it'd be different from the flame Asuryan has.

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It's definitely different - it emits cold, for one thing - but it's still quite similar in other ways. In the context of the quest I don't believe it's silver, Mathilde looked at it and to her mundane senses it seemed pretty normal.

 

[LawsOfRobotics]

I just went back to our visit to Middenheim and the flame in quest and none of it seems to contradict my half baked theory:

Legend has it that Taal gifted the mountain to Ulric, who hammered the top of it flat with His fist for reasons known only to Him. He then lead the Teutogens to it, who built their city in it (with no small amount of assistance from a neighbouring Dwarven clan) and discovered on the flattened peak a still-burning fire caused by Ulric's fist, which supposedly continues to burn to this day as the Sacred Flame of Ulric.

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Y'know, we talk a lot about Ranald/Cd-3 being the one to mantle Asuryan, but there's no actual evidence of that other than "it sure sounds like a Ranald thing to do."

What if Cd-2/Ulric was the one to pick up Asuryan's controller after Qt-1/Asuryan got killed?

It's a little bit too cute - we can't assume that every time some cult rearranges the credit for a myth to promote their god that it hints at some deeper truth - but it would provide an alternate explanation for the Asuryan/Ulric's flame connection.

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Yeah, I was being a little facetious about Cd-3 mantling Asuryan, I'm not sure how that theory/joke got started. While the idea of Cd-2 mantling Asuryan and so claiming the Sacred Flame for Ulric as well makes some sense, the Obernarn Stone specifically notes that Ulric was already by Taals side at the final battle, when Asuryan comes back from the dead. On the other hand, Cd-3 mantling Asuryan provides a neat explanation for why Ranald was hiding instead of helping. Cd-3 logged out to take control of Asuryan and the Ranald that subsequently gained sapience and has to retroactively explain his inaction to himself doesn't understand that.

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It's definitely different - it emits cold, for one thing - but it's still quite similar in other ways. In the context of the quest I don't believe it's silver, Mathilde looked at it and to her mundane senses it seemed pretty normal.

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It's only Divine cold and it's not really physically described:

the Sacred Flame captures your attention at once, and not just because of it somehow radiating mundane heat and Divine cold at the same time.

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[BeepSmile]

Why does it feel like that every appeal for utilitarianism typically boils down to "human suffering has a value, and we can exchange that value for goods and services."

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Because the people saying that are bad at utilitarianism, and it sticks out in your memory.

 

[Wiggy]

Amoral people tend to forget that morals exist because they work.
We did not just suddenly decide that not being a self centered dick is wrong out of nowhere.
Outside some more niche religious things, basic morality tends to boil down to fairly basic rules on how to survive as a group.

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Amoral actions often work fantastically! Foooor the person being amoral. For a group/society as a whole they are often incredibly deleterious. So society yells at people not to do those things.

 

[mathymancer]

It's only Divine cold and it's not really physically described:

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The flame in Middenheim isn't descirbed in detail, but the flame in Ulrikadrin - which was lit from it - is described one update before that.

You take the opportunity to give the flame careful scrutiny under Magesight, and though at first you think it's entirely mundane, the fact that you feel colder the closer you get to it and that Wolf has perked up and is staring confusedly through your eyes definitely indicates that something is up.

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[LawsOfRobotics]

The flame in Middenheim isn't descirbed in detail, but the flame in Ulrikadrin - which was lit from it - is described one update before that.

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I knew there was a bit about that I was missing, but I could only find this one from our first meeting with Ruprecht:

The flame of his torch was lit from a heavily reinforced lantern one of his men would have transported from the baggage train, which itself was lit from the even more reinforced and carefully-designed brazier that the Knights have brought with them, and its flame would have been lit from the Sacred Flame of Ulric in Middenheim.

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So no mention of it being silver in any of the three times it's been on screen, but it is hot and cold at the same time.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

The Loec and Ranald connection is pretty obvious, yes, but there was also long-standing thread madness bit where we speculated that Ranald dressed up as Asuryan after he got killed and that that's what he was doing during the coming of Chaos.

Lemme dig up some quotes.

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As the self-designated President of the Ranald is Asuryan Society, let me save you some time:

have you ever seen Ranald and Asuryan in the same room together? I thought not.

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[Altom]

Outside some more niche religious things, basic morality tends to boil down to fairly basic rules on how to survive as a group.

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Most likely because it has its roots in the evolution of humans/protohumans as social species.

I'd argue their even more advanced then the dwarfs because they don't have compunctious about inventing, testing and using new stuff.

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That depends entirely on whether you consider "more powerful but more unreliable" tech to be more advanced.

Was the Eternal Flame silver before WFRP 4e? If so, then it'd be different from the flame Asuryan has.

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Hmm... I recal reading in one of the Asur quests on this site, MC drawing parallels between between differences in Asyrian's flames and flame of Ulric and differences between Fireheart and Frostheart Phoenixes. Ultimately coming to a conclusion that Ulricans worship the flames of a Frostheart phoenix. Given that Fireheart Phoenix is a major symbol of Asyrian and that turning into a frostheart is a natural part of a phoenix's lifecycle...

 

[LawsOfRobotics]

Yeah, the myths don't quite line up. LUMW actually gives some geographical details on where the battle is taking place - it's in Norsca, and after Ulric summons his flame He also asks Manann to drown the field, which leads to the creation of the Sea of Chaos. This doesn't add up to the flame being in Middenheim, which is much further south. Even if we assume that LUMW misidentified the exact location of the sea and the battle, if the myth is remotely accurate we would still expect the flame to be somewhere near a coast.

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I hadn't noticed that LUMW says the battle is in Norsca. MF is quite clear that the battle occurs at the "Great Pyramid" which I was assuming is in Ulthuan, possibly the Shrine of Asuryan. It is probably not in Lustria because LUMW is pretty clear that the battle occurred in the north. The Obernarn Stone also mentions Asuryan's "Gleaming Pyramid", so I suspect LUMW is correct about the latitude and wrong about the rest of the details.

None of this contradicts my theory of the flame ending up in Middenheim, because I think it might have ended up there in a battle before the final battle. Ulric is at the final battle but he could have used weapons from Cd in a different battle at what would become Middenheim before joining the remaining Old Ones at Qt. Afterwards he could have led the Teutogens to Middenheim because the weapon system/flame left there gave him more local influence in a world emptying of Winds. The bit about Taal gifting the mountain to Ulric may have been about gifting the weapon instead of the mountain.