- Location
- Finland
I'd argue that this makes him a fucking brilliant politician.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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..by gilding a tree? Or what am I missing here...
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I imagine that if a large number of people begin to be upset about wizards living too long, said wizards would simply assume new public identities and change a bit their habits.
There's a whole spectrum of unnaturalness, from « has funny hairs » to « literally don't need to eat, sleep and can't have sex ».
I believe Dreaming Woods are full of Ghyran. Gilding fills the user with Chamon.
Attempting to mix the two is probably bad and should be avoided.
- Location
- Hiding in the walls.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
By Gilding a forest, obviously. One tree isn't going to do enough to influence an entire Dreaming Wood!
I was doing a reread of Dwarf lore for reasons unrelated and I recalled this, which led me to make this image instead of doing bookkeeping for my quest.
Look don't question my creative process alright?
And rightly so! Umgi adventurers might count it as one of the greats because of its proximity to one of their trading cities, but the Karaz Ankor does not take their opinions into account when evaluating who deserves the status of Major Hold, nor should it.
(Also I don't think Karaz Azgaraz even existed before 3e, and if it did I don't think it had more than a paragraph or two of lore associated with it. Inventing a new Major Hold out of nowhere just because there's none conveniently close enough to this edition's favourite questing hub rubs me the wrong way in the same way that inventing Gnomes that have always lived right in the middle of the Empire did.)
The only way to do that would be to pick a Gold Wizard you like less than Johann and send them in there and see if they're driving insane by Dhar being created in their body and soul. The Gold Order frowns upon those sorts of requests.
They do already have a whole wing of an insane asylum full of questionably sane wizards.
…although thinking about it the experiment only needs to see whether Dhar would be generated by a gilded wizard, not what effect it would have on them. Using an already insane Gold Wizard would not significantly impact the results.
Do we know how empathetic vs utilitarian that leadership of the Gold College is at present?
Mathilde: Hi! I'd like to perform heinous experiments on the patients of this hospital!
Secretary: Requisition Form 87a.
That a Gold Wizard will be taken care of for the rest of their days if something goes horribly wrong is part of the social contract of the Gold Order. Using them as test subjects makes every currently sane Gold Wizard hugely less willing to risk their sanity for the good of the Order and the Empire, and practically guarantees that if they do start to have symptoms of magically-induced mental illness, they will do everything in their power to conceal it, and if it does get found out then they will do everything in their considerable power to die fighting rather than be led off into Frederheim. Even from a monstrously utilitarian perspective, this is not the right path to go down.
And that's even before you factor in that someone who has already been driven insane by some unknown magical mishap is already basically a walking confounding factor and thus of no use as a guinea pig.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I thought it was risky, but not that risky. Does it really have a 0% success rate to date?
I imagine that the Gold Order in particular can get intensely utilitarian at times, but you still have to take into account the effect on morale it'd have on everyone who hasn't gilded their heart.
Feldman in particular doesn't seem to have trouble understanding regular people, so I doubt the current leadership would go for it.
EDIT: Eshin'd.
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- Location
- florida
It's also horrifically amoral.
That hasn't stopped some people in the Warhammer world yet!
But apropos forest realms... We know the forest of shadows has intent. It didn't like drycha being there at all... So could we try to communicate with it?
While this is true, I think it's important to point out that amoral solutions are usually also terrible ideas. While it is justified to dismiss a monstrous idea for being monstrous, doing that too often feeds into the idea that there's an entire realm of perfect solutions that can be accessed by turning your back on morality.
Why does it feel like that every appeal for utilitarianism typically boils down to "human suffering has a value, and we can exchange that value for goods and services."
- Location
- Finland
Amoral people tend to forget that morals exist because they work.
We did not just suddenly decide that not being a self centered dick is wrong out of nowhere.
Outside some more niche religious things, basic morality tends to boil down to fairly basic rules on how to survive as a group.
We did not just suddenly decide that not being a self centered dick is wrong out of nowhere.
Outside some more niche religious things, basic morality tends to boil down to fairly basic rules on how to survive as a group.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
For a good example of the usefulness of trust, empathy, and a strong social contract, see the Skaven. A race as technologically advanced as the Dawi, without the massive societal collapse, and under the rule of a single prime god that decides their culture, which is so dysfunctional that despite their massive advantages their main claim to fame is that they managed to blow a lot of people up alongside themselves when the End Times happened.
More on Lord Ulric and the Making of the World. This is my third post on it, (part one, part two) and unlike the previous ones this time I'm going for a relatively short post focused entirely on a single issue - specifically, Ulric's flame.
Almost half of LUMW is dedicated to the aftermath of the battle against Chaos. A large part of that concerns the consequences of the Gods not properly disposing of their enemies' corpses, which lead to the birth of the Skaven:
But here was their great mistake. For the bodies of the Chaos hordes still lay on the battlefield, a vast carpet of carnage. And on top of it all lay the hideous bodies of the Chaos Gods themselves. As they lay there rotting, there came what always must come to battlefields: a plague of rats to feast upon the dead.
[...]
And so it was, when Ulric returned to the battlefield, he saw the rats feasting, and realised his great mistake. In their great consumption the rats had taken on a remnant of those foul gods' power, and become like them: a new race, like Men and the Dwarfs, only made from pure Chaos.
In response to this Ulric summons a great flame to burn what bodies remain:
Although it was too late, Ulric struck his hammer hard on the stony ground and brought forth a great flame with it. And with that flame he burnt all that foul offal that remained to ashes.
and also He asks Manann to drown the battlefield, but I want to focus on the flame. After the bodies are disposed of, Ulric is described as becoming the patron God of humanity, teaching them how to fight and how to work metals and giving them the gift of fire:
He taught them how to mould steel to make warhammers and swords and axes, and taught them how to wield them. He taught them how to fight, and to hunt, and to kill. And lastly he taught them how to make fire and how to use it.
The very final paragraph of LUMW brings up Ulric's fire two more times.
In return, the people of Ulric pledged to never suffer a Chaos-thing to live while they had breath in their bodies, and to ensure that every beast of Chaos that fell would be burned to ash, cleansed from this world by Ulric's Holy Fire.
[...]
We strike without fear against the ratmen, and the Beastmen, and all the creatures of Chaos, and raise the cleansing flame of Ulric to all the heavens above.
Now, this entire closing section is full of pretty obvious bullshit. More reliable sources date the birth of the Skaven race to the fall of Tylos, an event that happened thousands of years after the Coming of Chaos. Historical records tell us that the knowledge of steel comes from the dwarves and not from Ulric. Perhaps most egregious is the fact that Chaos Gods are claimed to be among the corpses - I'm pretty sure the Four are still around. If you want to be super charitable you could try and read all of this as somehow metaphoric, but I don't want to be charitable: it's pretty clear that the myth is attempting to paint Ulric as responsible for all the Good Things and as the protector from all the Bad Things.
Having established that everything else in that part of the myth being deeply suspect it's now time to talk about the flame of Ulric.
Why does Ulric have a scared flame? It doesn't exactly fit a God of winter, and yet it's brought up quite a few times - but only at the end of the myth. Could this be another mistake/lie? Well, there's a certain Flaming God that's been cut out of LUMW but which does appear in the other myths:
MF: Just as it seemed all was lost, a great, white fire erupted from the Throne, and Asuryan the Phoenix, wearing a bifurcated mask of white and black, strode forth.
OS: Then, just as the Four and their allies arrived for the Final Battle, Flaming Phoenix, whom all had thought dead, returned from atop His Gleaming Pyramid, and He smote about Him.
It's not hard to guess what's going on here: in the original myths Asuryan shows up at the very end of the battle against Chaos to smite the opposition with flames, but in LUMW Asuryan has been cut out of the myth so that very important role is instead given to Ulric. Ulric's sacred flame is merely an appropriation of the Flame of Asuryan, the cleansing flame of the Emperor of the Heavens.
There's just one tiny problem with this theory: the Sacred Flame of Ulric exists. It's an actual thing in Middenheim, you can go and look at it if you want. So what gives?
The similarity between Ulric's flame and Asuryan's flame goes beyond their role in the myths; as Cadaeth pointed out in her conversation with Mathilde, both are ever-burning flames that burn only the unworthy. Indeed, the two most famous instances of the Flame of Ulric not burning someone are Magnus and Sigmar, who would both go on to be worthy Emperors, which is quite reminiscent of the Flame of Asuryan not burning those who are worthy of being Phoenix Kings.
It could be that the Flame of Ulric has nothing to do with the Coming of Chaos at all, and LUMW is merely an attempt to make sense of the flame - legend has it that Ulric lit the flame by striking a mountain for some reason, so LUMW gives a reason and makes it a pretty good one. On the other hand OS also places Ulric at the Coming of Chaos, and the flame does seem quite similar to Asuryan's. I think there must be some connection between the two flames, but what could it be?
As one possible explanation, note that flames can be lit from the Sacred Flame of Ulric and carried elsewhere (there's one such flame in Ulrikadrin). What if the Sacred Flame of Ulric was itself lit from another flame - specifically, Asuryan's flame? Ulric and Asuryan fight on the same battlefield, then after the dust settles Ulric goes up to the fires left from Asuryan's smiting of the Chaos hordes or whatever and somehow makes it His own. The flames are similar because they are pretty much the same flame, except that Ulric somehow gave His flames a bit of His nature or something. Not a very satisfying explanation imo, and it doesn't really explain why Ulric was the only on the battlefield with the idea to get a cool flame.
I have another possible explanation. Asuryan is said to live in a great pyramid, topped by a diamond throne on which He sits. The actual Shrine of Asuryan, where the eternal Flame of Asuryan burns, is a pyramid. MF also mentions what appears to be Asuryan's pyramid, seemingly as the site of the battle against Chaos:
Verena eventually agreed to join the survivors at the Great Pyramid.
[...]
Step-by-step the defenders were driven up the pyramid, until there were only a handful of Gods about the Diamond Throne at its top.
Maybe Asuryan's pyramid is an actual physical thing? An artefact of the Old Ones, perhaps one which has the power to summon flames which burn the taint of Chaos, which is why the defenders rallied to it during the invasion. The MF myth is largely about Hoeth attempting to use an Old One artefact against Chaos, and maybe Asuryan likewise took that artefact or He might have been the one in charge of it or whatever, and perhaps there were other similar artefacts - perhaps one for each of the five cities, or one for each of the two polar gates - and one of the others belongs to Ulric.
But here was their great mistake. For the bodies of the Chaos hordes still lay on the battlefield, a vast carpet of carnage. And on top of it all lay the hideous bodies of the Chaos Gods themselves. As they lay there rotting, there came what always must come to battlefields: a plague of rats to feast upon the dead.
[...]
And so it was, when Ulric returned to the battlefield, he saw the rats feasting, and realised his great mistake. In their great consumption the rats had taken on a remnant of those foul gods' power, and become like them: a new race, like Men and the Dwarfs, only made from pure Chaos.
In response to this Ulric summons a great flame to burn what bodies remain:
Although it was too late, Ulric struck his hammer hard on the stony ground and brought forth a great flame with it. And with that flame he burnt all that foul offal that remained to ashes.
and also He asks Manann to drown the battlefield, but I want to focus on the flame. After the bodies are disposed of, Ulric is described as becoming the patron God of humanity, teaching them how to fight and how to work metals and giving them the gift of fire:
He taught them how to mould steel to make warhammers and swords and axes, and taught them how to wield them. He taught them how to fight, and to hunt, and to kill. And lastly he taught them how to make fire and how to use it.
The very final paragraph of LUMW brings up Ulric's fire two more times.
In return, the people of Ulric pledged to never suffer a Chaos-thing to live while they had breath in their bodies, and to ensure that every beast of Chaos that fell would be burned to ash, cleansed from this world by Ulric's Holy Fire.
[...]
We strike without fear against the ratmen, and the Beastmen, and all the creatures of Chaos, and raise the cleansing flame of Ulric to all the heavens above.
Now, this entire closing section is full of pretty obvious bullshit. More reliable sources date the birth of the Skaven race to the fall of Tylos, an event that happened thousands of years after the Coming of Chaos. Historical records tell us that the knowledge of steel comes from the dwarves and not from Ulric. Perhaps most egregious is the fact that Chaos Gods are claimed to be among the corpses - I'm pretty sure the Four are still around. If you want to be super charitable you could try and read all of this as somehow metaphoric, but I don't want to be charitable: it's pretty clear that the myth is attempting to paint Ulric as responsible for all the Good Things and as the protector from all the Bad Things.
Having established that everything else in that part of the myth being deeply suspect it's now time to talk about the flame of Ulric.
Why does Ulric have a scared flame? It doesn't exactly fit a God of winter, and yet it's brought up quite a few times - but only at the end of the myth. Could this be another mistake/lie? Well, there's a certain Flaming God that's been cut out of LUMW but which does appear in the other myths:
MF: Just as it seemed all was lost, a great, white fire erupted from the Throne, and Asuryan the Phoenix, wearing a bifurcated mask of white and black, strode forth.
OS: Then, just as the Four and their allies arrived for the Final Battle, Flaming Phoenix, whom all had thought dead, returned from atop His Gleaming Pyramid, and He smote about Him.
It's not hard to guess what's going on here: in the original myths Asuryan shows up at the very end of the battle against Chaos to smite the opposition with flames, but in LUMW Asuryan has been cut out of the myth so that very important role is instead given to Ulric. Ulric's sacred flame is merely an appropriation of the Flame of Asuryan, the cleansing flame of the Emperor of the Heavens.
There's just one tiny problem with this theory: the Sacred Flame of Ulric exists. It's an actual thing in Middenheim, you can go and look at it if you want. So what gives?
The similarity between Ulric's flame and Asuryan's flame goes beyond their role in the myths; as Cadaeth pointed out in her conversation with Mathilde, both are ever-burning flames that burn only the unworthy. Indeed, the two most famous instances of the Flame of Ulric not burning someone are Magnus and Sigmar, who would both go on to be worthy Emperors, which is quite reminiscent of the Flame of Asuryan not burning those who are worthy of being Phoenix Kings.
It could be that the Flame of Ulric has nothing to do with the Coming of Chaos at all, and LUMW is merely an attempt to make sense of the flame - legend has it that Ulric lit the flame by striking a mountain for some reason, so LUMW gives a reason and makes it a pretty good one. On the other hand OS also places Ulric at the Coming of Chaos, and the flame does seem quite similar to Asuryan's. I think there must be some connection between the two flames, but what could it be?
As one possible explanation, note that flames can be lit from the Sacred Flame of Ulric and carried elsewhere (there's one such flame in Ulrikadrin). What if the Sacred Flame of Ulric was itself lit from another flame - specifically, Asuryan's flame? Ulric and Asuryan fight on the same battlefield, then after the dust settles Ulric goes up to the fires left from Asuryan's smiting of the Chaos hordes or whatever and somehow makes it His own. The flames are similar because they are pretty much the same flame, except that Ulric somehow gave His flames a bit of His nature or something. Not a very satisfying explanation imo, and it doesn't really explain why Ulric was the only on the battlefield with the idea to get a cool flame.
I have another possible explanation. Asuryan is said to live in a great pyramid, topped by a diamond throne on which He sits. The actual Shrine of Asuryan, where the eternal Flame of Asuryan burns, is a pyramid. MF also mentions what appears to be Asuryan's pyramid, seemingly as the site of the battle against Chaos:
Verena eventually agreed to join the survivors at the Great Pyramid.
[...]
Step-by-step the defenders were driven up the pyramid, until there were only a handful of Gods about the Diamond Throne at its top.
Maybe Asuryan's pyramid is an actual physical thing? An artefact of the Old Ones, perhaps one which has the power to summon flames which burn the taint of Chaos, which is why the defenders rallied to it during the invasion. The MF myth is largely about Hoeth attempting to use an Old One artefact against Chaos, and maybe Asuryan likewise took that artefact or He might have been the one in charge of it or whatever, and perhaps there were other similar artefacts - perhaps one for each of the five cities, or one for each of the two polar gates - and one of the others belongs to Ulric.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Wait, I just read this properly, Gnomes? What the heck are Gnomes? Did they make the Halflings again? What do you mean they made secret evil halflings-
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Gnomes are a race that keeps getting added and removed. It's ironic, because they are apparently attuned to Ulgu, making their apparent non-existence questionable on many levels.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Strong morality and a good social contract is almost always a good thing. There are times morality has to take a backseat to pragmatism and practicality, but those are when you have massive, high-stakes imminent or ongoing disasters occurring. Not when you have a neat idea for a research project.
I'd argue their even more advanced then the dwarfs because they don't have compunctious about inventing, testing and using new stuff.