Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
I only brought up Altdorf as a sink because, in my mind, it seemed like the more plausible scenario was Marienburg, for example, getting hit by a giant meteor, and all the winds backing up on the continent and needing another place to go.
 
Going back to this:
When people talk about "payment", what is the final outcome they envision? Do they want U to remain constant but Ulthuan to provide material assistance to the nations of the Old World for maintaining U? Or do they want the right to toss on a little extra skimming for various polities of the Old World, which reduces the value of U? Both? Something else entirely?
Personally, I'm not keen on payment and am inclined to deal with it entirely as a logistics problem: Finding the best way to handle things in good times, and the least bad way to handle them in bad, drawing down what can afford to be drawn down, and triage what cannot. Hopefully a lot of the time ensuring that polities with a surplus can send things to those with a deficit, a la what we see in grain or energy distribution in the event of a crop or power failure. (One of the things that struck me back when talking about the infrastructure possibilities Windherding might allow is that it would be fun to deliberately send energy to the Karaz Ankor to help power some of their great works of yore. The Empire doesn't link many of its works to waystones after all, and the Karaz Ankor does. Finding out if we could deliberately empower some lost great work of Ulthuan would likewise be an intriguing prospect.)

If anything, I take the current conversation as a warning: Much of the argument currently being made in thread is one I can see coming up in debates from from hardliners of different polities within the Quest, too, let alone what full a blown shady politician on either side might try to achieve. Using waystone network expansion primarily as a means of extracting payment has the potential to incur incredibly fraught consequences, and it strikes me that it may be worth asking "What would Dieter IV do?"

Or, as Lecturer Sarvoi put it: "What's the difference between a Mage and a politician? One tries to wrestle poorly-understood forces into submission for personal gain despite the fact that it could all blow up in his face and ruin the lives of everyone around him, and the other casts spells."

In retrospect, I feel like those words may have had an understated arc importance, now. (Quick, how many of the plot notes and miniarcs since the Waystone Project arc started have had strong themes of some character within them enriching or empowering themselves at the cost of potential disaster?)
 
So, some people can't read again. Most people who have a problem with having the elves pay for the privilege of taking our excess magic have no problem with taking some of that magic to power whatever fun ideas we get.

But what I do (and it seems some others) have a problem with is holding the vortex hostage so that the elves give us some shinies.
All else aside, even that would need negotiations, just so we know how much magic we can take before Ulthuan sinks.
 
Like, the current Pheonix King seems relatively chill with humanity as a concept.
How long do people expect that to be the case if some idiot goes and does a "nice vortex you got there, shame if anything happened to it".
Mathilde is he dwarf diplomacy expert for the empire, i don't think one exists for elves.
 
Oh wow, it's almost as if the two states have something in common, and should maybe set up some sort of agreement to share the burden of the cost of maintaining the world's most vital infrastructure system instead of, oh I don't know, threatening to drown each other's armies in a swamp every time Marienburg kicks off at the Empire.

Which is a thing that actually happened.

The Empire is currently paying in blood, steel and gold to protect the waystone network. It is not wrong to ask the Asur to contribute to that.
Just to answer this specific one. The elves couldn't even have negotiated with anyone in the empire until about 300 years ago because until then magic was outlawed and someone would have tried to burn an elf on the stakes.
There is a valid reason why the empire wasn't seen as a valid partner for a magical project of this size...

As for Marienburg, sure you can throw that at the elves feet.
 
Just to answer this specific one. The elves couldn't even have negotiated with anyone in the empire until about 300 years ago because until then magic was outlawed and someone would have tried to burn an elf on the stakes.
There is a valid reason why the empire wasn't seen as a valid partner for a magical project of this size...

As for Marienburg, sure you can throw that at the elves feet.
Elf wizards are still illegal in the Empire, the Empire just doesn't classify them as wizards for diplomatic purposes.

Same as Damsels and Ice Witches.

Boney has said that the Eonir getting closer ties will probably see an agreement made where an Eonir institution vets all their wizards. In theory they could potentially make an agreement like that with the White Tower, though that has the issue that that'd only cover the White Tower, not every other disparate magical tradition in Ulthuan.
 
Elf wizards are still illegal in the Empire, the Empire just doesn't classify them as wizards for diplomatic purposes.

Same as Damsels and Ice Witches.

Boney has said that the Eonir getting closer ties will probably see an agreement made where an Eonir institution vets all their wizards. In theory they could potentially make an agreement like that with the White Tower, though that has the issue that that'd only cover the White Tower, not every other disparate magical tradition in Ulthuan.
Absolutely, my point was mostly that before 300 years ago there were a) no wizards of the empire and b) 3 empires.

Edit: like, even by elf standards 700 years is a long as time for political strife...
 
Last edited:
I feel like this topic right there, is exactly why elves don't trust humans with vital infrastructural knowledge. Give a relatively short-lived and short-sighted species leverage, and they start thinking in terms of... dictating the terms.

The current network stood for millennia on the basis of nothing but tradition, people protecting it for their own survival, and occasional maintenance teams sent from Ulthuan. As the Empire's grasp on and awareness of this magical infrastructure improves, how long would it be until someone in power gets blinded by the profits and threatens the common good of all species on the planet? How many generations? How many rolls of the dice?

I wouldn't be nearly this pessimistic on my own, but here we are talking about demanding money from Ulthuan for the privilege of receiving the pollution we desperately pump away from inhabited lands to keep them inhabited.

Adult table, uh huh. Respected partners.

(I am fine with the approach of politely asking how much we can skim ourselves before things get bad, that's just basic communication and cooperation, but that wasn't what was proposed at the beginning, and I still see this take alive in the thread.)
 
also a point I wanted to make... It might not even be possible to know "how much" the vortex gets as magic and how much ulthuan would need. How do you quantify that? Who could even do it?
Caledor might but we have found that he's not a talkative elf...
 
I feel like this topic right there, is exactly why elves don't trust humans with vital infrastructural knowledge. Give a relatively short-lived and short-sighted species leverage, and they start thinking in terms of... dictating the terms.
Personally, I'm pretty sure it's not just the humies that that lack of trust applies to. Nor that humans are uniquely or even particularly bad in that respect.

*gestures vaguely Malekith-ward.*

EDIT: I think there's another quote for that, actually, this one from Cython.

"Ah, yes, that which is now called Classical. An adequate language of an adequate people. They trusted the wrong being, but the history of this world is made of misplaced trust."
 
Last edited:
Absolutely, my point was mostly that before 300 years ago there were a) no wizards of the empire and b) 3 empires.

Edit: like, even by elf standards 700 years is a long as time for political strife...
On the other hand, it has now been 200 years since the Colleges were founded and it doesn't seem like they were going to be giving them more info on Waystones any time soon.
 
also a point I wanted to make... It might not even be possible to know "how much" the vortex gets as magic and how much ulthuan would need. How do you quantify that? Who could even do it?
Caledor might but we have found that he's not a talkative elf...
Well...
It is the fundamental problem of magical academia - how do you explain something when everyone experiences that thing differently? The Elves of Ulthuan use poetry, a language where every word has a dozen contradictory meanings, and a lifespan measured in centuries.
Find someone fluent in elf and have them spend a year listening to poetry to make sure they understand exactly what is being talked about? :V
 
On the other hand, it has now been 200 years since the Colleges were founded and it doesn't seem like they were going to be giving them more info on Waystones any time soon.
200 is decently short still. But I do get your point.
Personally I just think they decided to side with Marienburg because they already got a quarter there and changing things is bad. And a deal with the empire would definitely have involved abandoning Marienburg.
 
Personally, I'm pretty sure it's not just the humies that that lack of trust applies to. Nor that humans are uniquely or even particularly bad in that respect.

*gestures vaguely Malekith-ward.*
Point, but Malekith has been a known quantity for millennia. With humans, you make pacts, you make sure they understand the agreement, and a hundred years later you wake up surprised because the original people you've talked to are long dead and the new generation has some unfortunate ideas. Just ask the Eonir.
 
Apropos of nothing, but with respect to the meeting where we plan to give Kragg the Servioscope...
To go more into Kragg the Grim: this is the guy that centuries-old Runepriests have given up trying to get information out of. The chances of you getting anything out of him are absolutely zero unless you grow a beard and single-handedly save a Dwarfhold from certain destruction.

And it has to be one of the major ones, not any of the Grey Mountain holds or anything.
I observe that we have since fulfilled these criteria. Figuratively on the beard front, but the high conclave saying it makes up for the fact, I'm sure. :V
 
Apropos of nothing, but with respect to the meeting where we plan to give Kragg the Servioscope...

I observe that we have since fulfilled these criteria. Figuratively on the beard front, but the high conclave saying it makes up for the fact, I'm sure. :V
Personally the best thing about giving him the serviscope is that he will realize that, yes, we made the damn thing just for him, and he didn't even ask.
 
But what I do (and it seems some others) have a problem with is holding the vortex hostage so that the elves give us some shinies.
Please quote who you mean. Because I missed who wants to destroy the world.

Meanwhile we know that existing network is enough keep world safe so anything we make like Sylvania waystones should belong to us and we can sell that to Karaz Ankor, you agree right?
 
There is no way in hell I'm going to allow the next Dieter-level brain genius put in charge of the Empire try to extort Ulthuan with Waystone bullshit.

There's a lot of agreements I'd be willing to make with Ulthuan - indeed, there's some real arguments to be made for splitting the costs on some things, like if we built additional links to Ulthuan itself.

But as for the baseline link to the Vortex, as far as I'm concerned it's the Grey Orders duty to shank any Emperor who tries to get too clever with that shit. The world ending is bad, yeah?
 
Please quote who you mean. Because I missed who wants to destroy the world.

Meanwhile we know that existing network is enough keep world safe so anything we make like Sylvania waystones should belong to us and we can sell that to Karaz Ankor, you agree right?
Regarding that specific example, Thorek hinted that their existing network has a limited capacity to deal with Dhar, and any potential Sylvania link would have a great deal of it, so we'd need to solve that problem first.
 
But as for the baseline link to the Vortex, as far as I'm concerned it's the Grey Orders duty to shank any Emperor who tries to get too clever with that shit. The world ending is bad, yeah?
Oh thank the gods Luitpold is a reasonable person.

...Wait, his son can't become Emperor because magic so we don't know who'll succeed him yet. Whoops.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top