- Location
- Pittsburgh PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If I'm remembering correctly, it is actual canon. When Grom the Paunch's Waaagh invaded Ulthuan it destroyed so many waystones that the island was in danger of sinking.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
einargs
Verified Spiller of the Egg Yolk
- Location
- The Egg Yolk, Outer Layer
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We can't even make proper waystones without talking to Ulthuan or the Druchii. The nexuses are definitely going to be even more closely tied to the network, and we have no chance of somehow figuring out how to integrate a new nexus into the network without being told the proper commands. Theoretically we could develop our own entirely separate style of nexus, but that then runs into the problem of moving enormous amounts of winds and Dhar from one nexus system to the other. It's also a massive waste of time to reinvent the wheel.
The Sundering really did a number on Ulthuan:
Malekith and His Mom (Who has got it going on) did a little trolling, basically. Steal/destroy a disturbing amount of landmass, try and murder the vortex. The usual shenanigans.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
As that map highlights, there's a reason why Nagarythe is sometimes known as the Shadowlands, and also why it was described as "half-drowned, half-ruined land of ghosts and blood and ashes" by Mathilde's inner narration when we delivered the Druchii prisoner to the embassy.
I think Caledor dragontamer earned some credit too?
If I recall correctly, when the asur rediscovered the waystone network after war destroyed the previous secret keepers, they learned the empire had been guarding the apparatus keeping their realm afloat for thousands of years and now one of their own was teaching them magic, they proceeded to steal Marienburg to control the nexus, the magic of the continent and get rich. Payment may be off the table.
- Location
- Hiding in the walls.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I didn't say anything about connecting to the existing network without the proper commands. I do, in fact, expect us to need to collaborate with Ulthuan to hook up to their stuff*. It doesn't even particularly rankle that we do, since while it's annoying that we can't when we're trying to make repairs that they're unwilling or unable to perform, it's understandable to be security-conscious about infrastructure like this.
I'm also not clear where the idea that we can't make proper Waystones without talking to Ulthuan or the Druchii comes from. We've made excellent progress on all components thus far, and while it's possible that the Foundation will prove more difficult, we haven't seen the results of that action to say one way or the other. Is this a matter of you defining a "proper" Waystone as either "one matching the Golden Age design employed by Ulthuan" or "one capable of connecting to the Ulthuan network"? Because if so I would firmly dispute that definition.
As for reinventing the wheel, that is exactly what we've been doing with the Waystones, thus far to great success. It's been noted that what was the best approach for the Golden Age alliance between Asur and Dawi may not be the best approach for modern producton and deployment of infrastructure that needs to be produced, repaired, and replaced in the modern day; I see no reason that wouldn't hold true for the development of a Nexus.
I also see very little reason that a system designed to absorb significant quantities of Winds and Dhar when they're in its vicinity and then shuttle them along would have trouble interfacing with a system designed to... Absorb and shuttle around significant quantities of Winds and Dhar to another point? We've seen on-screen that the existing network already has multiple types of Nexus, and we'd be examining existing ones as part of our research, so I don't see it being nearly as problematic as you seem to be implying it would be.
*(Although, if we were really, really, desperate and Ulthuan absolutely refused to negotiate with us, we wouldn't even need to interface "properly" with their network to get Winds and Dhar into it, as long as we were releasing the Winds and Dhar somewhere that existing Ulthuani infrastructure could pick them up. This isnt a good way to resolve that problem, but it is possible, and they can do literally nothing to stop us from doing it other than "invade and physically prevent us creating infrastructure to do so" or "cut off the flow of magic, because absorbing magic from the area is literally the entire point of a Waystone".)
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Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...this does not compute. Ulthuan is taking away magic that's harmful and dangerous in large quantities, we're trying to solve the problem of how to get magic from everywhere in there instead of only from some places, and we recently found out there's a whole Caledor Dragontamer inside the Vortex keeping it going for thousand years instead of living a life or something. "Charge" feels like an absolutely alien word in there.
And like, sure, the dwarves have a use for magic and a way to spend it harmlessly, but those Runes were built by the Ancestor-Gods or their contemporaries. Being in a position where magic, globally, is more of a commodity than a pollutant is... it's not happening, I'm pretty sure.
- Location
- Washington
Honestly I think there is actually a possibility we DON'T need to talk to ulthuan to hook up to their stuff. By no means a guarantee or even going to say it's probable, but from some of the other comments from boney I think it's within the realm of possibility that if you can get the flow of magic going by brute force, which sounds doable via orbs of sorcery, the existing waystones MAY just accept that flow of magic by default. The big benefit of the codewords in that case being "Caledor dragontamer will direct the already existing energy of the network to carve out that flow, instead of needing to use very very hard to replace resources."
No amount of success is going to enable us to set up and defend waystones in the middle of the dark lands, or whatnot, the power projection just doesn't exist in the nations involved.
It doesn't need to be more of a commodity than a pollutant GLOBALLY, it just needs to be more of a commodity In Ulthuan Specifically than it is a pollutant In The Empire Specifically. This is because we are not, in fact, trying to solve the problem of how to get magic from everywhere, we're trying to solve the problem of "how to get magic from everywhere reasonably accessible to the nations of The Old World", instead of the current status quo of "just some places reasonably accessible to the nations of The Old World."
No amount of success is going to enable us to set up and defend waystones in the middle of the dark lands, or whatnot, the power projection just doesn't exist in the nations involved.
I had the thought of comparing this map of Elf and Dwarf settlements to our map of the Waystone network and halfway through my work I realized that I vaguely remember someone else already doing this, and sure enough:
Meissen is exactly between Bugman's Brewery and Nuln, you can draw a line on a map of Wissenland and see for yourself. I think it's possible that Mathilde just missed it: she saw a line going from Nuln in the direction of Bugman's, then went to Bugman's and confirmed a line in the direction of Nuln, so she wouldn't have found any relay in the middle. I guess it's also possible possible that Meissen isn't a nexus but just contains some normal Waystones or something. This might come up if we do the Bugman's nexus action.
Neues Emskrank doesn't come up in the mapping action but neither does Salzenmund, and Mathilde does mention Salzenmund (in her thoughts) during the first meeting of the project. It's possible that all of Nordland is considered a part of the Laurelorn network, and Neues Emskrank in particular is part of the territory that Laurelorn claims, so it might come up if we take the Laurelorn network action.
Ossino is east of Sydow, which as Codex points out in her post is probably the location of the former Marcher Fortress nexus. Ossino also appears to be west of Mordheim. It's possible there was once a Mordheim-Sydow leyline running parallel to the existing Gross Selon-Talabheim and Eicheschatten-Nuln leylines, but it seems unlikely that Ossino was a nexus because if so it would have become corrupted with the loss of Mordheim and the Marcher Fortress, unless someone (the Taalites?) knew to shut it off. Ossino seems to be a similar case to Meissen, the location of a former dwarf settlement that appears to be directly between two nexuses and may or may not have a nexus itself.
The Mirror Moors are more or less directly west from Talabheim, north-west of Altdorf, and either east or south-east of Marienburg depending on the exact location of Angaz Baragdum. I think it's very likely that there's a lost nexus somewhere in that general area, if only because our map of the Empire's network has a lot of dead space around Middenland, and the Drakwald must have had some Waystones in it before it was lost to Beastmen.
Nonetheless, I have spent some time staring at maps and it'll be a shame to let this go to waste, so a few comments on the four places that didn't come up during the mapping:
Meissen is exactly between Bugman's Brewery and Nuln, you can draw a line on a map of Wissenland and see for yourself. I think it's possible that Mathilde just missed it: she saw a line going from Nuln in the direction of Bugman's, then went to Bugman's and confirmed a line in the direction of Nuln, so she wouldn't have found any relay in the middle. I guess it's also possible possible that Meissen isn't a nexus but just contains some normal Waystones or something. This might come up if we do the Bugman's nexus action.
Neues Emskrank doesn't come up in the mapping action but neither does Salzenmund, and Mathilde does mention Salzenmund (in her thoughts) during the first meeting of the project. It's possible that all of Nordland is considered a part of the Laurelorn network, and Neues Emskrank in particular is part of the territory that Laurelorn claims, so it might come up if we take the Laurelorn network action.
Ossino is east of Sydow, which as Codex points out in her post is probably the location of the former Marcher Fortress nexus. Ossino also appears to be west of Mordheim. It's possible there was once a Mordheim-Sydow leyline running parallel to the existing Gross Selon-Talabheim and Eicheschatten-Nuln leylines, but it seems unlikely that Ossino was a nexus because if so it would have become corrupted with the loss of Mordheim and the Marcher Fortress, unless someone (the Taalites?) knew to shut it off. Ossino seems to be a similar case to Meissen, the location of a former dwarf settlement that appears to be directly between two nexuses and may or may not have a nexus itself.
The Mirror Moors are more or less directly west from Talabheim, north-west of Altdorf, and either east or south-east of Marienburg depending on the exact location of Angaz Baragdum. I think it's very likely that there's a lost nexus somewhere in that general area, if only because our map of the Empire's network has a lot of dead space around Middenland, and the Drakwald must have had some Waystones in it before it was lost to Beastmen.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
To be honest, I hate this idea.
Sure Ulthuan probably can afford to pay. But charging them for a service they are doing for the entire planet, even if they get some side benefits out of it, is not something I will support.
Yes...Ulthuan is using the magic for things such as... Keeping the continent with countless civilians and the infrastructure that allows the vortex to exist in the first place. Along with spells and weapons fighting Chaos and keeping the Seas free of Druuchi and Norscan pirates.
This seems like attempting to charge the company that takes your trash for the privilege because they recycle some of it and sell it off, before using said funds to keep the whole operation running.
- Location
- Washington
Except when it comes to trash collecting all I'm doing on my end is sticking my trash in the dumpster, I don't have to fight my way over to the dumpster and risk actual material harm keeping the racoons out. The nations of the old world have themselves been spending not insignificant blood and treasure keeping the waystones from falling into to the hands of those who'd destroy them, that very much changes how it looks to be skimming off the top.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Doesn't recycling companies pay the trash collectors already irl?
At any rate if we can redirect our network to dwarven one so they can use it for their works and I imagine dwarves would pay for it since it would be to their benefit.
Provided we can figure out how to do that and we probably would need to calculate how much their network can handle before we do it.
But if dwarves buy the power Ulthan would have very little excuse to not do the same.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
Turning a potentially world saving work into "Oh but how do we get the most money with it!"
Is kind of disgusting to me on a moral level.
I do not care if dwarfs will buy it.
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- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
God, that is really depressing to think about.
Imagine being stuck inside a room. There is no outdoor window, no electronics. Just you in an empty room.
And you get a list of words you have to chant, if you stop for a moment the world ends. So you chant. You cannot go to sleep. You cannot eat. You cannot entertain yourself. You have to chant. If you stop for a single moment the world ends. So you chant.
Day in and day out. An entire week, a year and then millenium. Imagine your entire human life spend in a room doing nothing but chanting. And that is still the tiniest, barrest of a fraction of a second that need to be spent chanting.
And then a bunch of people come to your family and goes "You know, you aren't doing very much on your side of the deal. We're gonna start charging you for the privilege of being able to chant".
Caldor Dragontamer has spent millenium in order to save his people, and by extension the world. And people wanna start charging them for that fact, because they sometimes benefit.
That just feels really sad. Your still chanting to save the world.
Imagine being stuck inside a room. There is no outdoor window, no electronics. Just you in an empty room.
And you get a list of words you have to chant, if you stop for a moment the world ends. So you chant. You cannot go to sleep. You cannot eat. You cannot entertain yourself. You have to chant. If you stop for a single moment the world ends. So you chant.
Day in and day out. An entire week, a year and then millenium. Imagine your entire human life spend in a room doing nothing but chanting. And that is still the tiniest, barrest of a fraction of a second that need to be spent chanting.
And then a bunch of people come to your family and goes "You know, you aren't doing very much on your side of the deal. We're gonna start charging you for the privilege of being able to chant".
Caldor Dragontamer has spent millenium in order to save his people, and by extension the world. And people wanna start charging them for that fact, because they sometimes benefit.
That just feels really sad. Your still chanting to save the world.
I don't think this about just money - having the Asur stop supporting Marienburg would be immensely valuable for example.
Right now we can barely negotiate because Ulthuan considers the Empire too primitive to even know about the Waystone network.
Romv
A Memory of TREES
Johann's arm appears to work with Hysh, both for its general workings as an arm as for its laser beam. When he tries to channel Chamon through it, the arm turns out to be insulated against it somehow. This kind of sounds like what happens with Waystone gold: when it's absorbing one Wind, it becomes insulating for the others.
So is the arm made of (something similar to) Waystone gold?
Though it's weird that Johann didn't notice at any point during the Waystone gold discussions. Unless he didn't want to mention it for some reason, of course.
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Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...Because if you have nowhere to throw that trash, it will literally poison, mutate and kill you, and the trash collectors have saved the planet by investing all that effort into the ability to dispose of trash, and are continuing to (CALEDOR DRAGONTAMER), and what they skim off the top is literally vital to their own continued ability to do so, as well as the survival of a whole lot of civilians over there on Ulthuan.
Holy shit I feel physical revulsion at the idea of demanding money of all things for the privilege of keeping the planet survivable.
When did any of those experts get to see kislevite waystones? Hell we haven't seen one. The only ones who have seen one are the ice witch, who isn't talking and maybe the hag witch but iirc the waystones are a ice witch matter.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Right now we have no use for it, and actively don't want it. It's trash, the elves want it, they can have it for free. Great.
Later on, when we do have uses for this energy, be it powering our own aethyric megaprojects or giving it to the dwarves to funnel theirs, it is no longer trash. It is a valuable resource, and asking Ulthuan to pay for it instead of giving it to them for free is entirely reasonable.
If nothing else, the dwarves, our closest and most steadfast ally, would dearly love to have it. It's a matter of their polity's survival, too. If Ulthuan wants to have it instead of the Karaz Ankor, then they can pay for it. Not at ruinous prices - the Empire doesn't know it's a matter of life or death for them - but something.
Belegar wasn't unreasonable to be mad about being robbed of his Karak's magic (given the information he had available to him), and do you think dwarves like stagnant magic more than humans?
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I believe Algard said when we initially told him that he felt that Ulthuan was profiting off of the Empire resource?
I think there's the implication that the High Elves also use the magic for other purposes, not just the Virtex and keeping the island afloat.
Gotta agree on the charging being weird and feeling bad. Like I don't think anyone will complain if we draw some off the magic off to power some great build... But I doubt that will even take a fraction of the available stream. And as much as I like the dwarfs, their network was never ever meant to deal with all of the old worlds winds and I doubt it could do it now...
Grungni the greatest crafting god was satisfied with his work on literally only this.
And grungnis work still didn't stop chaos. He's a great god, love the dude. But they too have and had limits.
- Location
- Utrecht
But directing a bunch of energy (from, say, Sylvania) towards the dwarfs wouldn't be a bad idea.
They have a way to store it, and a way to use it.
Getting enough juice to activate the gas forge of Morgrim would be pretty fortuitous with Thunderbarges being something engineers can design.