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But directing a bunch of energy (from, say, Sylvania) towards the dwarfs wouldn't be a bad idea.

They have a way to store it, and a way to use it.

Getting enough juice to activate the gas forge of Morgrim would be pretty fortuitous with Thunderbarges being something engineers can design.
Depends on if all the works are still useable.
Biggest problem I see is that the dwarfs very deliberately severed their connection to the old network. And as such it might be difficult to hook that back up again. Especially as they severed it at the height of their power with all their knowledge still intact and we would now be trying to reconnect using the bits that are left...
 
And as much as I like the dwarfs, their network was never ever meant to deal with all of the old worlds winds and I doubt it could do it now...
How do you know that. We have not surveiled their network. Only thing we know ooc is that they have something like dozen megaprojects that they can't use, one of which shackes a volcano, meaning it probably needs a lot of power.

We have not even quentified the magic on old world, maybe there is enough power to help both if not we should mesure what is minimum to keep Vortex working and than make plans for the rest. For all we know Estalia and Tilea is enough for that so we can do what we want.
 
Depends on if all the works are still useable.
Biggest problem I see is that the dwarfs very deliberately severed their connection to the old network. And as such it might be difficult to hook that back up again. Especially as they severed it at the height of their power with all their knowledge still intact and we would now be trying to reconnect using the bits that are left...
We need to investigate the dwarf network before learning if we can give them juice... and boy am i looking forward to that.

The Gas forge of Morgrim is probably in Zhufbar, if i were to guess.
 
How do you know that. We have not surveiled their network. Only thing we know ooc is that they have something like dozen megaprojects that they can't use, one of which shackes a volcano, meaning it probably needs a lot of power.

We have not even quentified the magic on old world, maybe there is enough power to help both if not we should mesure what is minimum to keep Vortex working and than make plans for the rest. For all we know Estalia and Tilea is enough for that so we can do what we want.
Because they needed the vortex to save them too. If the dwarfs could have made a great work big enough to hold the old world they probably would have, but they didn't, the leaves had to.

Is that proof, not directly but it's strong enough for me to be pretty sure.
 
It's worth noting that we'd be, effectively, charging them for the not inconsiderable amount of resources and manhours spent on infrastructure repair and replacement. It's not like we're not putting a lot into this project; deploying just the tributary network in a single province of a single polity is taking multiple wizard-years of work.

It's also not at all impossible to arrange an agreement such that both sides benefit from it. Ulthuan getting rights to a certain amount of the Old World's magic free and clear by treaty has obvious benefits for Ulthuan even if it means they no longer get all of the Old World's magic, as long as they get enough of it - namely, that now every signatory polity in the Old World has an incentive to go smack anyone who tries to skim more than their share, rather than Ulthuan having to either first convince people that they have any right to any of it, or try to prosecute a war against the entire Old World if they start running low.
 
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In regards to payment, I think that whether it's fair isn't an important question. The question the thread should be asking is "what will future wizards/emperors do with the knowledge that the Elves are 'stealing' this resource? And I'm concerned that we won't like the answer."

Getting some sort of payment (preferably a small recurring amount) for the winds means that there won't be tension about it in the future. Unilateral transfers and transfers over time for an up front payment done a long time ago build resentment. Continual trade lessens resentment. There's always an underlying 'what have you done for me lately'.

Alternatively, we'd need to tell the Grey College quite clearly that its our job that we never take advantage of this leverage, and we'd better have a good reason. And if the Elves stay mum, that'll be hard to do.

Depends on if all the works are still useable.
Biggest problem I see is that the dwarfs very deliberately severed their connection to the old network. And as such it might be difficult to hook that back up again. Especially as they severed it at the height of their power with all their knowledge still intact and we would now be trying to reconnect using the bits that are left...
I don't know that they severed the connection. I thought it was created so that they had their own piece?
The Gas forge of Morgrim is probably in Zhufbar, if i were to guess.
Eh, I doubt it. Zhufbar had the waterfalls + pumps of morgrim, IIRC, the one mega project we definitely don't want them to restart. I think it's more 1/per location? But I could be wrong.
 
I don't know that they severed the connection. I thought it was created so that they had their own piece?
Mathilde speculated that they used to be connected during her mapping action:
Or perhaps the Karaz Ankor and the rest of the network weren't always so separate. All this time staring at maps has resulted in a fair few observations on your part. Praag, according to your map, is exactly west of Karak Vlag. The Gross Selon runestones, likewise, are exactly west of Karak Ungor. Mordheim is exactly west of Karak Kadrin. Eicheschatten is exactly northwest of Karak Varn. Matorca is exactly west of Barak Varr.

Perhaps the Karaz Ankor network was not built entirely separately. Perhaps it was once connected. That the Eonir noticed Karak Eight Peaks reconnecting would suggest that at least a ghost of a connection between the two still lingers. Perhaps it was severed long ago, perhaps out of spite, perhaps out of caution, and perhaps the Dwarves found that once the rubble had been cleared and the bodies buried from the Time of Woes, they no longer knew how to reconnect it.

You finish writing your encoded notes and share nothing of these suspicions with the others.
We've wondered for a long time how the Eonir noticed K8P wake up if the Waystone networks are disjoint. Circumstantial evidence suggests that they were not always so.
 
The entire Waystone network depends on the Great Vortex... and Ulthuan sucks in magic from the entire world, not just the Old World continent. It's very possible that they could cut off the Old World's connection and keep floating along just fine afterwards. And if that sounds bad and dumb, uh, welcome to international diplomacy. In this area, Ulthuan are the ones wearing the big boy pants. They can doom entire continents with the flip of a switch, and no matter how self-defeating that might be, the threat of doing that gives them massive diplomatic leverage in any Waystone network related negotiations.

Maybe Kislev's ice vortex would be enough on its own to keep their Waystones working. Maybe the same holds true for the Karaz Ankor. But even if so, we're a long way away from even thinking about replicating that for everyone else. And having the rest of the network switched off would mean their neighbors would be drowned in Dhar and demons, so they both depend on the Great Vortex too.
 
The entire Waystone network depends on the Great Vortex... and Ulthuan sucks in magic from the entire world, not just the Old World continent.
I'm not certain about that.

They definitely don't have any Waystones in any of the Lizardmen areas, so that's most of Lustria and the Southlands out. They definitely don't have the Mountains of Mourn, the Dark Lands, or Cathay. Probably not Norsca.

That mainly leaves Araby, possibly Nehekhara (though Nehekhara might have its own separate network) and Naggaroth. Though if Naggaroth has any intact parts of the Waystone network, I doubt they'd be letting that Magic go to Ulthuan rather than using it themselves.
 
That mainly leaves Araby, possibly Nehekhara (though Nehekhara might have its own separate network) and Naggaroth. Though if Naggaroth has any intact parts of the Waystone network, I doubt they'd be letting that Magic go to Ulthuan rather than using it themselves.

No way Nehekhara or Naggaroth are sending their magic to Ulthuan.
That means that the Old World is a really big part of what's keeping Ulthuan afloat - I doubt the Asur want to risk cutting it off.
 
Grungni wasn't involved?

He disappeared when the Vortex went up, the Dwarfs didn't become involved with the Waystone network until later.
I mean, the rune of eternity apparently is tied into the system. Maybe the runes and their great works were just being powered by the massive ambient magic before the vortex dropped it, but that still implies there was a connection existing for the rune to monitor the other holds. I doubt any runelord has messed with the Rune after he left. I suppose the Rune might be advanced enough to have edited itself to account for the waystone system being made and connect itself to it? Hard to say.
 
Because they needed the vortex to save them too. If the dwarfs could have made a great work big enough to hold the old world they probably would have, but they didn't, the leaves had to.

Is that proof, not directly but it's strong enough for me to be pretty sure.
I don't understand what you are trying to say, obviously Dwarves did not invent Vortex equelent before the elves but that says nothing about what they build during their friendship with Ulthan after it was invented. Considering that was before Ulthan started floating meaning they didn't need as much power Dwarven network might be bigger than we think.

More to point we don't know how much power they can store. But it looks pretty big storage it seems.
 
To be honest, I hate this idea.

Sure Ulthuan probably can afford to pay. But charging them for a service they are doing for the entire planet, even if they get some side benefits out of it, is not something I will support.
Yes...Ulthuan is using the magic for things such as... Keeping the continent with countless civilians and the infrastructure that allows the vortex to exist in the first place. Along with spells and weapons fighting Chaos and keeping the Seas free of Druuchi and Norscan pirates.

This seems like attempting to charge the company that takes your trash for the privilege because they recycle some of it and sell it off, before using said funds to keep the whole operation running.
I feel like I'm kind of of two minds about the idea.

On the one hand, it strikes me that Ulthuan is basically in the exact same position as the Karaz Ankor, if for different reasons. They're both maintaining a network to keep themselves alive, where one will turn to stone if it gets too low for too long and the other could sink into the sea. Yeah, both have other uses for magic and probably various great works they can employ it towards, but at least with the Karaz Ankor the gap between "last of the great works shuts down" and "slow, civilization-ending power failure" was... not large. Coming in in the middle of that and using the Empire's position "upstream" in the network to mess with things or coerce a deal definitely doesn't sit well with me.

On the other hand, if a surplus of energy is put into the system, eventually, there will be negotiations over what to do with that windfall of magical power, and even just thinking about things like an overflow link to divert excess from, say, the Kislev network in Praag to Karak Vlag, I can see a lot of negotiation occur over exactly when and how bleedover is handled. Or if we find that something is up with the Tilean network and reroute the Border Princes towards Barak Varr, for that matter. Is this a temporary situation? What happens if and when it gets fixed? etc. Even in building out the system to benefit literally everyone there's a lot of favors that can be traded to negotiate exactly when and how that happens.

If the hairs start being split fine enough, or the system has any significant flexibility in where energy goes, one of those favors will almost certainly be money.

So my overall feeling is we probably need two aspects to any negotiation with Ulthuan: One for bad times and triage (read: the status quo or worse) to ensure that harm is mitigated, even if there's not enough. After that, we can have another, looser, part of the negotiations for what to do in good times. As long as it's not trying to force their hand, I feel like it's something that's just going to inevitably happen if we involve them. It's struck me as things get better and polities advance, that flow of energy may graduate from being "the thing keeping us all alive" to being regional electrical grids.

Sure, we're a long, long way where the Kislev and Ostermark can suck down a Storm of Magic and have one of their chief concerns be what to do with the excess, but payment for a power surge is what might happen if things even begin to approach that point.

Of course, for all that to work out happily, we probably need both knowledge of when and where things would need triage --- such as learning about the Karaz Ankor's near-apocalypse failure and Ulthuan's "desperately avoiding sinking into the sea" situation IC --- and some examples of work that can be done to drastically improve the status quo. The latter of which would probably generally be areas like the Badlands, where we know things don't have networks, or finding novel areas that don't terminate in Ulthuan. (Which is part of why I'm so keen on the Tilean mapping to see if Skavenblight is sucking up regional leylines to make warpstone. It's entirely possible there's a flow eastwards from Tobaro or Sartosa, but If a flow to Skavenblight exists to be cut loose, large or small, then the prospect of doing so becomes a bargaining chip. Still, even that's just illustrative, really. Any flaw found in a mapping action can easily become a bargaining chip once we're in a position to fix it. Who's chip depends on who fixes it.)

But I digress. The core point is that this is foreign policy. Yeah, some of the prospects are creepy and some options are unsettling than others, (and, to be fair, probably less stable? Coercive force has a long history of being unexpectedly fragile, once challenged,) but such is foreign policy. Negotiation is going to happen. Ideally, said negotiation ends up with everyone invested to maintaining the new status quo, but for that to happen, everyone has to have something worth maintaining.
 
Messing with the network has, at low end, the capacity to be genocidal to the Ulthuani elves, and at the high end destroy the fucking world.
While i am not opposed to spending some of the magic, like Reikland already is doing with that one nexus.
I would be very careful of any shenanigans because we do not want a war of survival with Ulthuan, and that is what we would be risking.
 
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Personally, I'm inclined to disregard Ulthuan's claim to the Waystones they abandoned four thousand years ago. Just as they have to acknowledge Laurelorn's independence, so too must they acknowledge that the Waystones that we've been killing and dying to protect ever since are now ours to do with what we will."

"Uti possidetis," Elrisse agrees.

Humans have spent three thousand years fighting to protect the waystone network—both directly and indirectly.

I'm not saying we blackmail or extort the elves over it, but maybe, just maybe, we should be a bit firmer with insisting they pay their child support?
 
I'm also not clear where the idea that we can't make proper Waystones without talking to Ulthuan or the Druchii comes from. We've made excellent progress on all components thus far, and while it's possible that the Foundation will prove more difficult, we haven't seen the results of that action to say one way or the other. Is this a matter of you defining a "proper" Waystone as either "one matching the Golden Age design employed by Ulthuan" or "one capable of connecting to the Ulthuan network"? Because if so I would firmly dispute that definition.
Yeah, I was defining a proper Waystone as one that connects to the Waystone network.
As for reinventing the wheel, that is exactly what we've been doing with the Waystones, thus far to great success. It's been noted that what was the best approach for the Golden Age alliance between Asur and Dawi may not be the best approach for modern producton and deployment of infrastructure that needs to be produced, repaired, and replaced in the modern day; I see no reason that wouldn't hold true for the development of a Nexus.
This is a good point. Personally I'd prefer to get the passphrases fairly soon because it'll also help us understand the Waystone network much better, but you're right: it doesn't seem as necessary as I thought.
 
The reward for any efforts to repair or defend the Waystones is continuing to exist.

It isn't any kind of favor to the elves that needs to be repaid, it's entirely about not letting the Empire become more Chaos Wastes.
 
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