Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It did make me think that we need Johann to take it down the dojo and tell it to git good
Johann: "I thought Red Riders were dangerous. Why are you so weak?"
A Very Bruised Rider: "Well most wizards would throw spells of great and terrible power at me making me much, much stronger rather than just fucking punching me you absolute lunatic."
It's not that it was beaten, it's that it was beaten so casually by people trying not to kill it. It was beaten so thoroughly it sat there for twenty minutes, occasionally getting punched in the faces while Mathilde fucked around trying to bind it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that in most cases it won't go down so easily, but I'm not confident that this is worth utilizing as Battle Magic.

Do keep in mind this one was not just tag-teamed, but outright ambushed. The thing essentially rounded a corner and received a baseball bat to the skull.
Two squishy wizards isn't as strong in melee as one squishy wizard and one demigryph/destrier knight.

It wouldn't be two squishy wizards; a Rider in Red is the same toughness no matter the form, and its sword the same strength. And the horse the same horseness.

Also, for everyone talking about cats with tentacles or sword tails or such, might I remind you of the noble Displacer Beast? We can continue GW's long-standing tradition of stealing shit from other IPs!
 
The problem with being mist-shrouded is that it's blatantly obviously supernatural which will put off allied soldiers and makes it near impossible to use in many scenarios off the battlefield.

Why surrender potential utility for nothing?

Most likely not. All indications are that even the humanoid Apparitions are limited to animalistic levels of intelligence. The Rider in Red laughs, but it doesn't actually have a sense of humour, that's just the noise it makes when it's hunting.

It would be interesting one to test the limits of. It seems a Rider in Red can learn to fight in the very different fashion that a giant spider would, so presumably it can be taught to a quite significant degree about some things. Mathilde's sword style may be too sophisticated but animals can be trained to be batter at fighting and to use weapons; so some improvement may be possible.
 
If I understood the scope options correctly it is the choice between a neat mass-produced application that could be to the benefit of the empire at large for the auditory option, and actually doing what we set out to do with getting Kragg something to look at the runes in Bok's soul with the visual option. Between those I would prefer to do the visual now, and keeping the auditory one as a possible future project together with Egrimm.

With a lot of patience and care it does seem like it might be plausibly possible to feel out the shape and nature of the runes within Bok with the auditory version, though it'd be a lot harder and a lot more work.
 
And if we go monstrous then I want a spider, because I proposed the idea and so I feel duty-bound to vote for it.

I wonder if we could repurpose the smoke breath capabilities of our Red Ridders so it emits a permanent smoke, thick enough it isn't easy to see what it's going to do next.



Hopefully sometime in the next two and a half hours we'll discuss the 'scope option in more detail, because I think that the Apparition discussion is sucking the oxygen out of the room for the other choice.

I feel the visual makes more sense right now. We have 2 LM with visual Windsight, with Mathilde's being extremely exceptional to boot, it fulfills the use case we wanted and may even allow us some further AV insights (see what happens in the flash when the AV transforms into Winds).

Then next time we can spend CF to hire a Magister with auditory Windsight to help us with the auditory one.


Speculating a bit about the Sevirscope I wonder if it'd be possible to do:

Magic -> Auditory Sevirscope -> sound representing the magic -> Sound to Image device -> image representing magic

To get a continuous stream of visual information.
 
The Mounted Wraiths/Knight of Judgement/Mathilde ideas are all appealing and very much in theme. Changing the nature to something just makes the Apparition less useable as a decoy and more likely to cause panic amongst allies.

Of course ideally the spell should take after the caster's own self image thus allowing every wizard who knows it to create an instant decoy. That may be a bit broken though...


With a lot of patience and care it does seem like it might be plausibly possible to feel out the shape and nature of the runes within Bok with the auditory version, though it'd be a lot harder and a lot more work.

My take on this is that Kragg both deserves and will appreciate to have the best tool to examine Bok.

He made Mathilde a top of the line sword; we can make him a top of the line Seviroscope.
 
With a lot of patience and care it does seem like it might be plausibly possible to feel out the shape and nature of the runes within Bok with the auditory version, though it'd be a lot harder and a lot more work.
It sounds like Kragg would eventually get there in like three hundred years of listening to the sound of magic.
And the horse the same horseness.
Nay, the actual form it takes does have tangible benefits and downsides.
 
Johann: "I thought Red Riders were dangerous. Why are you so weak?"
A Very Bruised Rider: "Well most wizards would throw spells of great and terrible power at me making me much, much stronger rather than just fucking punching me you absolute lunatic."
Yes riders are likely to be at their best used again other wizards. Well against other wizards who use magic at their main form of attack.
 
Hopefully sometime in the next two and a half hours we'll discuss the 'scope option in more detail, because I think that the Apparition discussion is sucking the oxygen out of the room for the other choice.

The seviroscope thing is a lot more low key, because the options are not mutually exclusive—we can do one now, and one next turn. Audio is like a Geiger counter that can distinguish between different types of magic, and can be (theoretically) manufactured easily. Visual is more like an X-ray, and requires a complex non-portable device, but it's easier to interpret the data.

I think we should do both, because they cover different niches, but the intent of the seviroscope is to analyse the soul of Bok and the runes on it. So if we do that this turn, it opens up Bok as a research option next turn. Meanwhile the audio version has no immediate use for us, but would be extremely useful for witch hunters, adventurers, soldiers and anyone who needs to detect magic but can't see it. We'd also probably want to pull in someone with audio windsight just to help refine and describe the results (didn't one of the Light journeymen have audio?).

So I would suggest we attempt the visual seviroscope this turn, and next turn either hire a wizard with audio windsight, or jump straight into investigating Bok.

Or both, but I think AP might be a little tight for that.

"For Runesmiths to be able to use it to study the soul, or soul-equivalent, of an ancient Elemental that roams Karak Eight Peaks."

I like how Egrimm didn't even blink at this. Elementals have a lifespan measured in hours, and Mathilde wants to examine the soul of one that's apparently "ancient".
 
I'm in favor of a prosaic ordinary knight, and on the other hand of trying out the more difficult visual idea.
 
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I think there's a lot of underestimation of the value of having a decoy, on and off the battle field.

Addressing the one major downside; miscasts of this spell at the point of manifestation should be rare. Battle magic miscasts already have to be pretty rare, otherwise battle mages wouodn't survive long enough for it to be a career, and many of the miscasts for Apparitions will happen where no soldiers can see it, at the point of capturing and binding.

This makes me think that this issue is overblown. It's possible; but the Grey College can deny it ever happens and there's very unlikely to have been anyone present with the familiarity with Mathilde to contradict them.

That's the opposite of if things go well, where the College can endorse and publicise her presence on the field.

The Gold College presumably has to deal with it looking like their wizards set a pack of magical hounds on their allies; the Jades called up the dwellers to pull their allies into the depths, etc.

This is a same problem whatever the apparition looks like.

@Boney, yet another question. A long time ago
I asked about whether we could invent a spell that summoned a fog bank that an Apparition could selectively manifest in, condensing out of the most in one place, dematerialising, and appearing somewhere else within it. I also asked if it would count for the Staff of Mistery and Warrior of Fog.

I think you answered yes to all three. Would that spell would with the Red Roder skins here, either as a Monster/Knight/Mathilde in the Most spell?

Nay, the actual form it takes does have tangible benefits and downsides.

The vote says the major difference is in how people perceive it, not overall combat effectiveness. There may be trade offs like a horse being better against some types of foe and a demigryh others, but I think it should be net flat.
 
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Okay finaly caught up and man the disscussion gave me whiplash, at first I despaired that the Nazgul would be out of the running but thankfully we remenbered wizards do spooky stuff all the time, so we know they wouldn't realy change things.

Not very interested in the Mathilde Rider, may have a few use in some rare edge cases, but could always get the result with other spell and loses on the primary use most of the time, better to shelve the idea for if we grab a handmaiden, that sound like it would fit them better.

@Boney Since Winter Wolves are also an option what benefit does the giant wolf form brings ?
 
@Boney, yet another question. A long time ago
I asked about whether we could invent a spell that summoned a fog bank that an Apparition could selectively manifest in, condensing out of the most in one place, dematerialising, and appearing somewhere else within it. I also asked if it would count for the Staff of Mistery and Warrior of Fog.

I think you answered yes to all three. Would that spell would with the Red Roder skins here, either as a Monster/Knight/Mathilde in the Most spell?

Yes. The most basic way to manage that would be to have the fog act as a shortcut for the Apparition to be deployed from, and return to, Mathilde's soul. If that works out, then it would work with any kind of Apparition.

@Boney Since Winter Wolves are also an option what benefit does the giant wolf form brings ?

Being a giant wolf is the benefit.
 
question, how many knights/spiders/whatever would we summon when casting the spell?, we are bounding one but gehena golden hounds are several entities.
 
I am convinced on the Wraith on Demigrph idea. If we think it is better to have a hero ganker over a tank with taunt in our party we should get that one.

I don't like Spider option and knight ones sound very plain.
 
question, how many knights/spiders/whatever would we summon when casting the spell?, we are bounding one but gehena golden hounds are several entities.

One per bound Apparition. Multiple Hounds are achieved by having multiple Hounds. It will be possible to go out and collect more Riders later, if desired.

Been thinking about the theurgy idea and apparitions... if we miscast would it be possible for Mathilde to dump the miscast into the Red Rider?

No.
 
Sadly, if we're just interested in having a wizard killing machine, demigryph knight probably makes the most sense. Spider might be able to crawl across different surfaces, but given its size and the fact I'm not sure the apparition has to spawn next to her…. Idk that actually is.

I suppose we could try and lean into the multiple heads and make a shadowy chimera, they're definitely associated with Chaos- but chances are ours would will seem very visually distinct and no implications of outright daemonology or necromancy.
 
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