Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

flogoyog · Jul 18, 2023

mathymancer said:
[ ] Plan Roadmap to Success

-[ ] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[ ] COIN: The Gambler
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[ ] Waystone: Mapping (Tilea, Estalia) (Johann)

-[ ] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[ ] Attempt to create a liminal realm

-[ ] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)

-[ ] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings , Windfall paper, EIC action
-[ ] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander

This plan and it's Bugman's Nexus alternative are exacly what I want for this turn, including the changes made in in personnel for the Waystone project actions.
I will probably approval vote the running shoes plan because it's pretty similar.

Something I noticed these last few turns when we talk about the Lustrian rubbing that tends to go unmentionned, is the fact that they come with journals of the adventures the Asur that took those rubbing embarked on.

This is not a long shot at translating Old One writings with next to no context, it's transcribing the journals of a researcher that probably had some good ideas about what they were copying on top of trying to translate information the Old Ones left to the Lizardmen.

It might also give us an in with some people on Ulthuan, the kind of elf that can afford a to get ship to explore both Lustria and the Southlands would likely be a noble or at least a very successfull commoner that plied a lucrative trade for long enough to amass quite a fortune.

Publishing her journals would probably give Mathilde some contacts on top of cementing her reputation as a chronicler on Ulthuan, since it would be pretty simmilar to what she did for Asarnil.

picklepikkl · Jul 18, 2023

Alliterate said:
I almost agree. My expectation is 3+1 is already 'running hot' and would prefer if we do vary to step down to 2+1.

I do want to try variation in both directions just to establish a sense of "here's what happens". How strongly do you feel about not going above 3+1? Is it a hard line in the sand you'd spin off a variant for or a grit your teeth and bear it if the plan is otherwise sound?

Andres said:
Windherding covers spellcasting as well, though on enchanting, Eike doesn't even have any Ulgu spells, so I strongly doubt she's able to do any enchanting yet. I really doubt she's got the same knack for enchantment Mathilde does either.

On the contrary, she has Aethyric Armour, which is literally the first spell we ever did any enchanting actions with way back in Stirland. So she's clearly capable of enchanting, assuming she rolls well enough in class to learn it. And while she obviously wouldn't be able to participate in the actual itemcrafting, by learning Enchanting beforehand she would hopefully know enough about what's going on to be able to perceive what Mathilde and Egrimm are doing. We know she doesn't have the enchanter's knack Mathilde does, but I see no reason why the very basics of enchanting shouldn't be possible; when we started, after all, we weren't even able to enchant Relatively Simple spells, but only Petty and Lesser Magics. So Eike should probably be able to get to that level after one session of the College's instruction.

flogoyog said:
Something I noticed these last few turns when we talk about the Lustrian rubbing that tends to go unmentionned, is the fact that they come with journals of the adventures the Asur that took those rubbing embarked on.

This is not a long shot at translating Old One writings with next to no context, it's transcribing the journals of a researcher that probably had some good ideas about what they were copying on top of trying to translate information the Old Ones left to the Lizardmen.

This is definitely a factor in why I've wanted to do this artifact study for a while and why I want Eike specifically to participate in it: the notes of the explorer are in Eltharin, after all.

Wodger · Jul 18, 2023

Is [ ] Involve yourself in current affairs: Cult of Ulric schism doable as a webmat action?

Sparsebeard · Jul 18, 2023

[ ] Plan foundations for Foundations
-[ ] Coin : PROTECTOR
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Bretonnia)
-[ ] [ ] [ ] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.
-[ ] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Eonir. (Ore)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Nuln Library. (Minor colleges)
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (FADED) - Collaboration with Egrimm as main author
-[ ] Eike Actions: Ore trade route
-[ ] Eike Study: Sea trade logistics and diplomacy

[ ] Plan foundations for Foundations with BIG BALLS
-[ ] Coin : PROTECTOR
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Bretonnia)
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo
-[ ] [ ] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.
-[ ] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Eonir. (Ore)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Nuln Library. (Minor colleges)
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (FADED) - Collaboration with Egrimm as main author
-[ ] Eike Actions: Ore trade route
-[ ] Eike Study: Sea trade logistics and diplomacy

I really want to give both Kislev and Bretonnia the tools to get started on tributaries now that we started work inside the Empire AND try to get as much possible from them in exchange.

Considering her past success with coal and interst in naval mater/logistics, I also want to see how well Eike can do on the ore trade route if she spends most of her efforts on it.

I don't expect my plan to win, but I'm still putting it out there.

EDIT : Since we can split elfcation, also a version with orbs for some instant gratification.

Alliterate · Jul 18, 2023

picklepikkl said:
How strongly do you feel about not going above 3+1? Is it a hard line in the sand you'd spin off a variant for or a grit your teeth and bear it if the plan is otherwise sound?

Not incredibly strongly. Were I not due to sleep shortly, I'd be more likely to submit some no_apparitions variant, as stapling a being to a soul still skeeves me the heck out. And I think it is unwise to try binding anything tetchy into our soul with multiple, unmastered, Arcane Marks already piercing our soul, as I suspect our rogue shadow could lead to a potential loss of control, and at least will increase the difficulty and chance of failure.

I'd rather study and tame our Shadow-mark, at minimum. Demonstrate some self-discipline before our apprentice.

Imugi · Jul 18, 2023

Riders in Red and Giant Spiders share more qualities then just eight limbs. In addition to having two body segments and an armored exterior, both Riders in Red and Giant Spiders have bite attacks. I'm assuming the warhorse is the kind that bites and kicks, though the rider might also attack by biting.

Boney · Jul 18, 2023

Wodger said:
Is [ ] Involve yourself in current affairs: Cult of Ulric schism doable as a webmat action?

Who are you thinking about bringing, and how are they contributing?

Zero Gravitas · Jul 18, 2023

I'd just like to point out that the AV has been waiting for a lot longer then Elfcation - even the Apparition research isn't much newer.

Alliterate said:
And I think it is unwise to try binding anything with multiple, unmastered, Arcane marks, as I suspect our rogue shadow could lead to a potential loss of control

The Golds - and possibly the Ambers - seem to do it just fine.

Wodger · Jul 18, 2023

Boney said:
Who are you thinking about bringing, and how are they contributing?

I was thinking Johann and or Max, Johann would instantly impress and befriend the locals getting them to share important information and Max would gather information about Ulric from the local libraries. Can Wolf come too?

Boney · Jul 18, 2023

Wodger said:
I was thinking Johann and or Max, Johann would instantly impress and befriend the locals getting them to share important information and Max would gather information about Ulric from the local libraries. Can Wolf come too?

I can't really see them carrying their weight when it comes to navigating a high-level, high-stakes religio-political dispute.

picklepikkl · Jul 18, 2023

Alliterate said:
Not incredibly strongly. Were I not due to sleep shortly, I'd be more likely to submit some no_apparitions variant, as stapling a being to a soul still skeeves me the heck out. And I think it is unwise to try binding anything tetchy into our soul with multiple, unmastered, Arcane Marks already in our soul, as I suspect our rogue shadow could lead to a potential loss of control, and at least will increase the difficulty and chance of failure.

I'd rather study and tame our Shadow-mark, at minimum. Demonstrate some self-discipline before our apprentice.

That's very reasonable. I guess I will point out that the apparition capture action is not the binding, and so it's possible that on whichever turn we actually bind it to our soul we could double up with an Arcane Mark mastery action. The tricky thing with the Arcane Marks, as ever, is that they are personal AP rather than WEBMAT-compatible.

Zero Gravitas said:
I'd just like to point out that the AV has been waiting for a lot longer then Elfcation - even the Apparition research isn't much newer.

Pedantry: We trapped the snake in the Mirrorcatch Box on Turn 7. We gained the trinket for the elfcation on turn 23. We learned the Apparition secret on turn 30.

Zero Gravitas said:
The Golds - and possibly the Ambers - seem to do it just fine.

In fairness, we don't know whether they feel the need to control Arcane Marks before they do it -- But wait, Gehenna explained to us in detail how the Golds do their thing, didn't she? So maybe we do know.

Boney, sorry to drop another question on you, but did she say anything one way or another about Arcane Marks influencing the binding process the Golds use?

Some proofreading:

Boney said:
When the researchers here mention that one bottleneck was in rolling the improvements out only to sufficiently trustworthy gunsmiths, and you take the opportunity to point them towards Blutdorf.

Either the initial "when" or the "and" after the comma should be dropped here.

Also, last turn we had 19 gallons of AV, and this turn we again have 19 gallons of AV; I think that should be 20. (We also had 19 the previous turn, but that one makes sense because we presumably expended 1 gallon researching the liminal realm thing).

picklepikkl said:
Also, before my off-hand joke gets out of hand: Boney, is my logic of "a Red Rider has eight limbs and therefore a giant spider is a valid hypothetical reskin" sound?

And bumping this question in case it got missed.

Sparsebeard · Jul 18, 2023

Zero Gravitas said:
I'd just like to point out that the AV has been waiting for a lot longer then Elfcation - even the Apparition research isn't much newer.

That's a bit disingenuous, the remaining AV actions have been waiting for MUCH shorter of a time than elfcation.

Aule · Jul 18, 2023

Boney said:
Tributary: International (specify country)
Share information and expertise on how and where to create the tributaries to supplement existing Waystone networks.

Is water spirit ritual suitable for mass deployment in Kislev?

Sinsystems · Jul 18, 2023

As a proud member of the red rider faction I will only vote for a plan that includes them.

mathymancer · Jul 18, 2023

picklepikkl said:
Boney, sorry to drop another question on you, but did she say anything one way or another about Arcane Marks influencing the binding process the Golds use?

This was actually asked and answered a while ago:

Boney said:
There's been no mention of it, but the Chamon Arcane Marks tend to be less ephemeral. There's not a huge amount you can do to control things like your sweat looking like mercury or your skin turning gold, and it seems like they'd be easy to account for if they do have some effect on binding.

Chlof · Jul 18, 2023

Wanted to collate what all the tributary rollouts would potentially look like by cross referencing available info and maps, needed to get it out of my head before bed

Averland - Collegiate/Water Spirit full to 2/3rds coverage, Likely similar deployment rate to Stirland
Hochland - Taalite Water Spirit/Collegiate Dreaming Wood Full Coverage, Likely fairly fast deployment rate of Water Spirit
Kislev - Hag Water Spirit 2/3rd to 1/2 Coverage, likely fairly fast deployment
Middenland - Collegiate Water Spirit 3/5th to half Coverage (Drakwald gap)
Nordland - Halethan Partial Coverage (Forest of Shadows gap), fast-middling deployment time?
Ostland - Halethan Partial Coverage (Forest of Shadows gap), fast-middling deployment time?
Ostermark - Halethan Full Coverage, fast-middling deployment time?
Reikland - Collegiate/Cult Water Spirit/Dreaming Wood Full Coverage, Likely fairly fast deployment rate in general
Stirland - Collegiate Water Spirit Full Coverage, Currently deploying at middling pace
Talabecland - Taalite Water Spirit/ Collegiate Dreaming Wood Full Coverage, Likely fairly fast deployment rate of Water Spirit
Wissenland - Elementalists/Water Spirit full to 3/4s coverage, Deployment rate highly variable

Jade college operations are eventually going to be slowed down by a lack of hands
Middenland might be a Problem. Dreaming Wood is out, Spirits would need to rely primarily on Jades and doesn't get enough coverage besides, Halethan can't rely on Nordlander Hedgewise atm so would need volunteers from northeast empire
Potentially need one more 'paradigm' of tributary to fill in large to medium flatlands gaps in Averland, Wissenland and Kislev.

Boney · Jul 18, 2023

picklepikkl said:
In fairness, we don't know whether they feel the need to control Arcane Marks before they do it -- But wait, Gehenna explained to us in detail how the Golds do their thing, didn't she? So maybe we do know.

Boney, sorry to drop another question on you, but did she say anything one way or another about Arcane Marks influencing the binding process the Golds use?

It didn't seem to be something they paid attention to one way or another, but the Chamon Marks tend to be on the less boisterous side.

picklepikkl said:
And bumping this question in case it got missed.

picklepikkl said:
Also, before my off-hand joke gets out of hand: Boney, is my logic of "a Red Rider has eight limbs and therefore a giant spider is a valid hypothetical reskin" sound?

The logic checks out.

Aule said:
Is water spirit ritual suitable for mass deployment in Kislev?

Yes.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Jul 18, 2023

picklepikkl said:
I prefer Rider in Red specifically because the most tense fights in the quest have been ones where Mathilde is pressed in close quarters, and so I think a meat shield is the main tactical niche we want filled to allow Mathilde to reset combat and either go in for an ambush or just run the hell away. I will also point out that when it comes time to make an Ulgu spell to allow for its deployment in combat, a Rider in Red has eight limbs (four human and four horse), so if you feel that a mounted knight/Nazgul isn't in keeping with Mathilde's aesthetic as much as you would like, we could always reskin it to be a GIANT SHADOWY SPIDER, SPAWN OF UNGOLIANT

Damnit Pickle, I'm trying to get people to vote for the Malevolent Mist here. Dropping awesome ideas like Shadow Spiders on the thread is not helping my case.

Gavin Prince · Jul 18, 2023

Aule said:
Is water spirit ritual suitable for mass deployment in Kislev?

It's probably more suitable there than anywhere else, given that Scythian is the magical language of choice there and there's a magical tradition trained and ready to wrangle spirits.

The only possible issue is that there will be gaps where there aren't any bodies of water large or important enough to have gathered a spirit in the area, but that's true anywhere it could be rolled out to.

Alratan · Jul 18, 2023

I'd say that Riders in Red binding is likely to synergise better with Mathilde's Knights trait and with her developing Strategy and Tactics skills in deploying knights than spiders would be.

I also think that they'd synergise better with Warrior of Fog, as it has nothing to do with actual fog, and isn't about general concealment. It's specifically about concealing and revealing troop movements.

Unlike other Apparitions, Red Riders, as Knights, are a type of troops. Concealing and revealing their movement onto and off the battlefield is directly in theme for Warrior of Fog.

If we want to develop something like a Knights in the Mist spell, or simply try to leverage Warrior of Mist to manifest (reveal) or dismiss (conceal) the reskinned red rider it works better for them than other Apparitions and would also work better if they're knights rather than monsters.

More generally, I think that it would be really used to get pocket knights to throw at enemies when we need a meat shield, a distraction, or some enemies to be in the receiving end of a cavalry charge.

Not to mention the possibility of making a fog bank spell they can manifest and jump around it to make lethal barriers on a battlefield or filling a fortress, horror movie style.

Angelform · Jul 18, 2023

Regarding the Waystone Project, I think we should look at the longer term. To my thinking we are nearing the end of the first 'phase' of the project. We are approaching the point where we can build all of the basic components, letting us repair any part of the primary network even if there is nothing left to work with.
The next part is learning how to modify the network so we can use the energy flowing through it while still dumping all the toxic Dhar and excess energy into the Great Vortex (or a suitable alternative that can deal with a continent's worth of Dhar). This is gated behind Leyline Keyphrase and Other Networks (Karaz Ankor, Kislev, Laurelorn, Athel Loren, Nehekhara).

I feel that we should hold off on bringing Bretonnia into the project until we can present them a newly built Waystone, but should most definitely bring them in before trying to negotiate with Ulthuan. Having a 'finished' product to sell means they will need to ante up to justify their involvement as more than a customer which hopefully means the Fey Enchantress will come personally.

For the keyphrases I wants several things before we poke Ulthuan. I want a newly built Waystone and to to have at least examined the Kislev network, this will show we aren't going to stop even without their help. I want Bretonnia involved, this gives us a united front with every major civilised faction in the Old World. And I want to have done the elf trip wit the Protector on, as the diplomacy method of "I killed your enemies, we are now friends" has worked very well in the past.

So general plan:
Turn 42 (now) – Foundation, Kislev tributaries.
Turn 43 – build waystone, bring in Bretonnia
Turn 44 (overwork) – visit Ulthuan, examine Kislev network
Turn 45 – Negotiate with Ulthuan

Alratan · Jul 18, 2023

There are some other things that we might be able to do with Red Riders as well, although I'm not as confident, and that is summoning parts of them.

For example, building a superior version of Shadowsteed that's more combat capable by just summoning the Rider's mount or making a better spell armour by manifesting the Rider's armour.

It might also be able to do the reverse. As the Apparition is staples to Mathilde's soul, and can also be trained, we may be better able to teach a Red Rider our sword style. It may be able to replicate many of our tricks with its own abilities by selectively dematerialising, or we may, once we're able to develop the spell, be able to incorporate giving them shadow swords into the spell.

There's also the possibility of using Red Riders as decoys. It may be possible to make them look like Mathilde on a Shadow Steed. Alternatively, we could try to develop a version of the spell that incorporates Illusuon for a customisable appearance, so we can use this to make them look like orc boar riders or chaos knights or whoever if we want to frame someone and play let's him and you fight by sparking conflict between enemies.

There are lots of potential paths for development here, more than I think there are for the other apparitions.

I also think there are more hooks to manipulate the behaviour of something based on a knight archetype.

Gavin Prince · Jul 18, 2023

Angelform said:
So general plan:
Turn 42 (now) – Foundation, Kislev tributaries.
Turn 43 – build waystone, bring in Bretonnia
Turn 44 (overwork) – visit Ulthuan, examine Kislev network
Turn 45 – Negotiate with Ulthuan

Foundations being a one-and-done would make for a terrifyingly showmanlike turn 43

With 5 actions:
Make Orbs
Waystone Prototype
Write & Publish AV Book in one turn using Serenity+Personal action
Finish binding a personal Apparition
Take it to Bretonnia and beat up the Iron Orcs on our own, drop their corpses and the completed waystone prototype at the palace gates.

EIC action pulls in tens of thousands in cash from Ithilmar
KAU copies every library in Nuln in one turn
Eike binds a Mammoth Familiar and rides it into town.

(this plan might include a small bit of hyperbole)

Derpmind · Jul 18, 2023

Boney said:
[ ] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (specify who and which)

[ ] Attempt to capture an Apparition (there will be a subvote for which)

@Boney I'm a little unsure about whether the Apparition vote is supposed to have a subvote or not. You made a post recently that seems to indicate we should decide which apparation to capture in the planvotes we vote for, but according to @Abby Normal's diffchecker post over here, (there will be a subvote for which) is a change added this turn, where last turn it read (optional: specify which).

Status: Being colonized by a new We, training and recruiting human and Halfling scribes from Karak Eight Peaks, open to braver members of the the general public.

Also, 'the' is used twice here.

Boney · Jul 18, 2023

Derpmind said:
@Boney I'm a little unsure about whether the Apparition vote is supposed to have a subvote or not. You made a post recently that seems to indicate we should decide which apparation to capture in the planvotes we vote for, but according to @Abby Normal's diffchecker post over here, (there will be a subvote for which) is a change added this turn, where last turn it read (optional: specify which).

The subvote part has been removed, the apparition should be specified in a plan. I've been experimenting with keeping the start of the next turn up to date in a separate file instead of making all the changes at once with a bunch of 'remind me of X if I forget' along the way, and at some point I was thinking about changing it to a subvote and made that change, and then forgot I had made it after I had given it more thought and decided against it (reasoning why here).

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

This isn't even my nerdiest form

This isn't even my nerdiest form

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