Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[chocolote12]

Short of them complaining to literally their god and receiving tangible assistance, I don't see dealing with a mildly snubbed cult as being important enough to spend AP on it.

Like, we disdain Sigmar, the god rather than the cult, and we've restructured our life so that we don't have to ever deal with that. Just shrugging and going on our way after we've already acquired all the library rights the Nuln Cult could have interfered with our acquisition of is perfectly reasonable.

It's not a festering thing that's causing blood to flow in the streets. It's just a bit of an institutional frown because we didn't get their blessing -- and we already came to the conclusion that that frown was okay when we made our librarians a hive of giant spiders.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I don't think that the juice is worth the squeeze when it comes to making up with the Nuln Cult of Verena in particular - they're both the ones most feeling snubbed by us and the ones with the least to directly offer us in exchange for our cooperation, since we've already got access to all the books nominally within their direct sphere of influence.

If we don't continue to kick up a fuss about it, I don't expect that much to come of this if we just leave it be. Maybe some snubs and closed doors, but not much comparable in scale to the benefits we'll get from our library having a copy of most of Nuln's literature corpus.

That said, we might want to overall try to get positive ties with some other branches of the Cult of Verena - having the overall Cult of Books in the Empire be "neutral" towards us ("the Nuln cult is mad, but the Altdorf cult and chapter XYZ of the Knights of the Scroll have agreements") is probably worth a library action at some point, especially if those ties can come with other benefits for the library at the same time.

 

[Chlof]

The Nuln temple's objections feel flimsy enough to me that if we just approach the cult with a reasonable attitude the problem should sort itself fairly quickly.

 

[reignonyrparade]

I agree that the whole "use this as opportunity to get in with the Veranans' rivals" plan is a bad plan in the abstract but I think it's also important to point out something about why it's basically a no-go in the specifics as well.

The Veranans' main rivals are the Sigmarites, in general, and the Veranans' main rival in the matter of "how Veranans deal with books" in particular is also the Sigmarites. The idea is a suggestion that we double down on annoying the Veranans to get an in with the cult that Mathilde actually specifically dislikes.

 

[Boney]

What about something like
[ ] EIC: Have the EIC watch for any concerning trading patterns as outlined in The Neglected Front: Economic Warfare against the Vampiric Bloodlines

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The EIC currently lacks the governmental powers that would make this possible.

I mean the action to negotiate the bridge is on the list and there is no indication that it would involve either of the precisely three people above us in the hierarchy of the empire. I suspect this concern is very much underestimating the kinds of deals Mathilde is allowed to make of her own will, though again to keep this from spiraling over tens of pages @Boney does Mathilde foresee involving any of her superiors in the opening of a mist bridge?

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The entire forest of Laurelorn is already engineered so that it's extremely hostile to outsiders while still being easily passable by the Eonir. That being the case for 100% of their border instead of 95% of it is not that big a game-changer, especially when it would be the border with Middenland, their ally.

Would raw We silk be a useful trade good for diplomacy?

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Dwarves really don't like exporting raw materials.

I find it hilarious that they want to gatekeep given it's sorta contrary to their divine mandate.

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Despite common misconception, nowhere in Verena's strictures does it say that knowledge must be shared.

So maybe I am missing something regarding the fog road idea/project, so maybe someone here could explain my issue:
The RIte of Way is battlemagic, right? and battlemagic allways carries a risk of a misscast, right? So, if we used the rite 100 times, we would have 100 rolls with a chance of misscasting, right?
So why is a trading route that relies on this spell a good idea again? By making the spell essential to the trade route, we basically assure that a misscast will happen eventually, right?
Are we fishing for that one arcane mark that gives +1 magic that we are still missing, iirc? or if not, why do we think this is a good idea?

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Enchantments don't risk miscasting. The trade-off is that it takes much longer to make an enchantment than to cast a spell, and that the effects of an enchantment are much easier to dispel.

Edit: There is also the fact that our library is backed by K8P and I think our library is already dedicated to Valaya(I think?).

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The library can be considered secular as it is not officially dedicated to any God, or it could be considered Valayan as it is a library in a Dwarfhold and that means it's under Valaya's authority. It has small shrines to Verena, Valaya, and Quinsberry.

So I was rereading for a bit and found this. I don't know much about Ogres so I wanted to ask, would they have accumulated books from robbing traders over the years? And would it be possible to trade for them with any book they have?

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Probably not. Those traders don't really carry books, and leatherbound books would seem like jerky to Ogres.

Also can an Ogre be an Everchosen? Cause Overtyrant sounds intimidating enough to be Everchosen material to me.

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Most Ogres worship the Great Maw, but Chaos Ogres definitely exist.

@Boney can we have Eike help the Hochlander insert agents (i.e. Eike Actions: EIC infiltration action).

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You can have Eike watch and learn, but whether she'd be able to meaningfully contribute might be questionable, depending on what's being infiltrated.

Can we also just have the Hochlander train Eike in espionage (i.e. Eike Study: Infiltration/Tradecraft with the Hochlander)?

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Yes.

 

[picklepikkl]

Can we also just have the Hochlander train Eike in espionage (i.e. Eike Study: Infiltration/Tradecraft with the Hochlander)?

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Yes.

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...I kind of really want to do this now, if we decide (following @Derpmind's excellent post on the subject) to give Eike a break from spell study to work on another skill. After all, one of the reasons we took the action to set the Hochlander up in an HQ was:

It gives the Hochlander an out-of-the-way base of operations to do the sorts of things that require a base of operations. Large-scale information-gathering, recruitment, training, that sort of thing.

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And now I am extremely charmed by the notion of our Apprentice having a tradecraft training montage while based out of the Sunken Palace, a place very important to our own development as a Grey Wizard. Sure, it won't be the same for her as it was for us, but things change and that's something to embrace rather than fear. And I think it's very appropriate for our Apprenticeship that she be added to the rolls of a secret known, as far as I am aware, to only three people currently living (Mathilde, Heideck, and the Hochlander).

 

[Wiggy]

a secret known, as far as I am aware, to only three people currently living (Mathilde, Heideck, and the Hochlander).

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It sounds like the Hochlander is actually training people there these days, so there might be quite a few more people in the know these days.

Random thought, I wonder what ever happened to that girl we had running our stirland intelligence network that we put in a good word for to roswita's new spymaster?

 

[Eisenhelm]

i am curious, how old was or master by the time he first retired?

 

[Gavin Prince]

Random thought, I wonder what ever happened to that girl we had running our stirland intelligence network that we put in a good word for to roswita's new spymaster?

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Julia? We had a decade plus of social options to go talk to her again and never really did.

Ironically, the only Stirland-era person we've picked in social options semi-regularly since leaving the province is Kasmir, who we didn't really get on with while we were there.

 

[BeepSmile]

We absolutely don't want widespread institutional tension between LK8P and the Cult of Verena.

Doubling down on pissing off the Cult of the Goddess of Books is kinda just blatantly a bad idea when you're trying to run a library.

That doesn't mean we have to go and beg forgiveness in Nuln - if we just keep reasonably running our library and don't blatantly go over the head of future Verenan cults when it comes to future expansions the issue will slowly simmer down, and there's plenty of room to compromise with other, potentially more reasonable Verenan cells.

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Could.. could we talk to them.
Just talk to each other, give it a try?

I'm going to borderline advocate for begging for forgiveness here:

Let the Verena's of Nuln know that we went into this with good intentions, and that we regret that the number of demands on our attention meant that we pushed in as an outsider from the top-down with a basic 'dear Elector Count, you are in a severe situation, I can give you cannon foundries for Book,' rather than having the time to understand how best to involve the cult of the Goddess of Knowledge from the get-go.

What reasonable things might I do to set up a mutually beneficial long-term framework between the Nuln Temple of Verena and the Library of K8P going forward, and what small one-offs might be useful as a sincere expression of regret at how this played out?
[read: I have the 56% of the EIC. Do you want ink or paper or supplies orr...?]

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We could live with the animosity of the Nuln Temple, especially if we be careful to cosy up to the other larger temples, but I'd like to both try to make nice with Nuln and the other larger temples. There's a lot to be said for being able to provide a mountain's worth of storage space for very rarely [read: never] referenced tomes.

After all, the Verenan's have an obligation to 'safeguard knowledge', but how does one marry that ideal to the reality that many books are fucking worthless, and storing them is a pain?
We can solve that problem for them.
We can store their worthless books that they previously were religiously obligated to store in a crowded city.

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Assuming that we're dealing with the sect who generally want to share knowledge rather than the sect that want to gatekeep it.

Can't we just find out who the Cult of Verena in Nuln hates, and go murder them?

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Or this. This is also appealing. Who [apart from Mathilde] does the Nuln Verenan temple hate in particular that is legal to kill in the empire?
Mathilde is skilled at violence. So lets hammer those nails.

 

[GrimTheMad]

Julia? We had a decade plus of social options to go talk to her again and never really did.

Ironically, the only Stirland-era person we've picked in social options semi-regularly since leaving the province is Kasmir, who we didn't really get on with while we were there.

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We also go see Anton, Roswita, and Wilhemina whenever they pop up in the options.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Probably not. Those traders don't really carry books, and leatherbound books would seem like jerky to Ogres.

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"Jerky on the outside, disappointing veggie-pulp filling on the inside, but with some interesting sauces sprinkled around in there!"

 

[Boney]

i am curious, how old was or master by the time he first retired?

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Mathilde never asked.

 

[Gavin Prince]

We also go see Anton, Roswita, and Wilhemina whenever they pop up in the options.

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Anton and Wilhelmina don't really pop up for social options, though. Maybe with a bit more Eike action there'll be enough meat to discuss her apprenticeship and future with Wilhelmina.

 

[Blackshard]

Would raw We silk be a useful trade good for diplomacy?

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Dwarves really don't like exporting raw materials.

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It's worth noting that we've been less active in K8P in the in-and-out-of-game years since we stepped down from our post to focus on the Waystone Project, and we left King Belegar with a competent Steward who is fully aware of how valuable silk is. It's not like the world can only change if Mathilde Weber personally spearheads that change, especially when the only change needed is getting K8P locally tooled up to process the stuff. I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear that they'd gotten Dawi-quality exports sorted out by the next time we do a social action in which it makes sense to bring the subject up.

 

[LawsOfRobotics]

...I kind of really want to do this now, if we decide (following @Derpmind's excellent post on the subject) to give Eike a break from spell study to work on another skill. After all, one of the reasons we took the action to set the Hochlander up in an HQ was:

And now I am extremely charmed by the notion of our Apprentice having a tradecraft training montage while based out of the Sunken Palace, a place very important to our own development as a Grey Wizard. Sure, it won't be the same for her as it was for us, but things change and that's something to embrace rather than fear. And I think it's very appropriate for our Apprenticeship that she be added to the rolls of a secret known, as far as I am aware, to only three people currently living (Mathilde, Heideck, and the Hochlander).

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I have been trying to come up with Eike study actions that we could take as an alternative to just have her study spells, so I am happy to hear the ideas have some appeal. I also came up with an idea for teaching Eike to bluff:

I had an idea for an Eike study/teaching action. We can teach her to bluff through card games (or other bluffing games like Skull) at the Temple to Ranald the Gambler. When she was introduced she was described as "rather open and expressive about what she thinks" while we (supposedly) have a very good poker face that we have had to use on multiple occasions. This would let us train her diplomacy or intrigue, and possibly reveal her piety through conversation about Ranald. @Boney is this a viable Eike study or teaching action?

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It's viable as either study or teaching, depending on whether you want Mathilde to just point her at it or to supervise the whole thing.

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I would rather do the teach version, so that it can be a bonding experience, and we can get some insight into her piety, but I am not sure I will be able to convince the thread to shake loose the AP needed for that.

Here is the list of Eike study actions I am currently considering for next turn, suggestions are welcome:
-[ ] Eike Study: Magic (Sounds, then Bless Weapon, then whatever lesser spell makes sense) (note: I now see Derpmind's point about how we should try to teach Eike personally if we want her to get our Bless Weapon mastery, so I will probably modify this one)
-[ ] Eike Study: Infiltration/Tradecraft with the Hochlander
-[ ] Eike Study: Bluffing at the Temple to Ranald the Gambler (note: I would prefer to do this as a teach action)
-[ ] Eike Study: Go on patrol with King Kazador
-[ ] Eike Study: Acting Lessons (note: Need to confirm if this is a viable action, want to workshop it a little more)

 

[picklepikkl]

Here is the list of Eike study actions I am currently considering for next turn, suggestions are welcome:
-[ ] Eike Study: Magic (Sounds, then Bless Weapon, then whatever lesser spell makes sense)
-[ ] Eike Study: Infiltration/Tradecraft with the Hochlander
-[ ] Eike Study: Bluffing at the Temple to Ranald the Gambler (note: I would prefer to do this as a teach action)
-[ ] Eike Study: Go on patrol with King Kazador
-[ ] Eike Study: Acting Lessons (note: Need to confirm if this is a viable action, want to workshop it a little more)

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My take: Tradecraft with the Hochlander is my favorite for next turn, since I'd like to give Eike a turn off of magic study, but I won't cry if a plan with more study wins. The patrol with King Kazador idea I'd kind of like to save until we go on the elfcation (which I am currently hoping for T44), because I am tickled pink by the notion of both Mathilde and Eike spending their time helping a nonhuman ally defend their borders and learning skills from them; the symmetry is really appealing to me. I'm kind of eh about the bluffing study and the acting study.

I'd also add to the list "Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)". Thanks to the gangbusters result on Rite of Way, we're swimming in CF and will be able to comfortably do the Orb of Sorcery galaxy flex as soon as we feel safe doing so, so currently paying for classes with CF is better than paying with money (we make, on average, ~4-5 CF/turn, but only 220gc). And this way Eike can pick up a useful skill which might allow us to eventually pass on Windherding to her.

 

[Andres]

I'm leery of plans that say we should delay thawing our relationship with the Nuln Verenans. Making amends a year or two later is a lot worse than doing it right afterwards. Dynamic Alcoholism is a different game but it's still got me thinking that ignoring someone when you unintentionally hurt their feelings is possibly generally a bad idea.

 

[Eisenhelm]

1: ~Fun~

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I can only think of one think worse than the perpetuals.

Mathilde: "what is that exactly?"
Tochter: "the magister who i had in mind was busy dealing whit a suddent outbrek on osteland, but he did managed to sent his familiar"
Mathilde: ".......tell him that i Thank him for trying but i dont think it's going to be enough"
Tochter: "why?, what's wrong whit it?"
Mathilde: "I'll tell you what's wrong with it. it's dead, that's what's wrong with it"
Tochter: "No,no, he is.. .uh..resting"
Mathilde: "I can see the shyish clinging to it".

 

[ReImagined]

My guess would be the Cult of Sigmar or Templars in some form.

 

[CrimsonOddball]

Could.. could we talk to them.
Just talk to each other, give it a try?

I'm going to borderline advocate for begging for forgiveness here:

Let the Verena's of Nuln know that we went into this with good intentions, and that we regret that the number of demands on our attention meant that we pushed in as an outsider from the top-down with a basic 'dear Elector Count, you are in a severe situation, I can give you cannon foundries for Book,' rather than having the time to understand how best to involve the cult of the Goddess of Knowledge from the get-go.

What reasonable things might I do to set up a mutually beneficial long-term framework between the Nuln Temple of Verena and the Library of K8P going forward, and what small one-offs might be useful as a sincere expression of regret at how this played out?
[read: I have the 56% of the EIC. Do you want ink or paper or supplies orr...?]

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Actually going so far as to beg forgiveness over this is also not likely to go well in the long run, since it's a big overreaction
We haven't committed some kind of horrible sin which has turned public opinion against us unless we atone, heck the Verenans themselves aren't even that angry at us, they're just annoyed enough that it'll color future interactions
Running over to prostrate ourselves is just unnecessary at best
And at worst just gives them undue control and leverage over the situation by making things out to be much worse than they actually are
This isn't an issue worth blowing out of proportion

Where we are with the Verenans currently isn't ideal, but it's fine
They're a bit grumbly, which will probably color the next interaction we have with them (this would include an attempt to reach out to them)
That is frankly a bridge we can cross when we get to it, especially since the next interaction we have with them might even provide an opportunity to mend fences for all we know

 

[Shard]

If we are already this concerned about our relationship with Verena over what amounts to a slight, imagine how badly the book stealing option would have been.

 

[DragonParadox]

I... Do you want us to not only do things against the Cult but blatantly and publically do it?

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No, but since he did not know we were acting against him at all it was more like taking pot shots at a mildly annoying bystander and in any case. Not much of a rivalry if the other side barely knows your name and does not know you bear them ill will.

 

[Andres]

And this way Eike can pick up a useful skill which might allow us to eventually pass on Windherding to her.

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Windherding isn't only enchanting, it's also spellcasting. Should she fully fail to achieve or desire enchantment proficiency, we may still be able to pass on Windherding to her.

 

[HanChenYou]

About the spider silk: I am actually fairly confused about what would take 10 years to get a viable proof of concept or even a simple sheet of cloth together when Max was able to throw something together in one action. The lead on the project is a human instead of a dwarf, right? They are not waiting until there is some arbitrary measure of perfection before releasing the first bolt?

I've done weaving and carding and thread and rope making before. The tools to start off are very simple, and only fancier tools are difficult to use.

Knife resistant fabric is still knife resistant even if it is not perfectly woven. No real soldier will care if the underlayer of non-encumbering strong cloth armor he or she wears is woven beautifully or not, as long as it is strong.

Rope weaving is also a … not too difficult thing to get decently good. It is mostly a materials science problem/improvement from thousands of years ago until now. The materials science would have been solved here by the fact that the spider silk is so amazing. Card and spin the silk to make thread. Once you have thread, obtaining rope is not difficult. Maybe they can't get the designs for a spinning wheel? Well drop spindles are slower, but can still make thread. For silk? It would still be worth it.

Super soft cloth I could imagine being really important to be super fine and even, which could take a long while and might have a lot of guild secrets in the way to get right, but the others should have at least a proof of concept out by now.

Does anyone have a good idea what could be happening?