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In complete fairness to Algard and Dragomas, if we didn't have the team we do, all the bits we've done so far would have been either impossible or taken a lot more time. It really feels like the biggest obstacle to the project was wrangling the right people to come by and get along.
Indeed.
As I trust Eike will one day reflect in our Biography:
It is here that I began to understand part of my Master's contradictory reputation. When she engages in diplomacy, she does not do so in the traditional means and methods of diplomats and ambassadors. In a world of circuitous maneuvers she charts a course directly towards her intended destination. When such methods fail, they are the hallmark of one completely inept at diplomacy; when they succeed, they alter the very course of history.
"The reasonable Wizard adapts themself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to themself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable one."
(With apologies to George Bernard Shaw).
 
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"When the Daemons walked and the Children of the Cradle were encircled, the Green Man first came to the Earth Mother and told Her of what was to come. In Her wisdom did She see what must be done, and in Her mercy did She make us, the Belthani, the instruments of correction. We built the Ogham Circles that halted the devastation, and we will guard them for Her." Magister Tocther nods firmly, ignoring thoughtful looks from Egrimm and Elrisse.

Doing some rereading and my paranoia has me wondering. We've been worried about having Askel around Elrisse. What if that's not the only human member she might be keeping an eye on? (yes yes I am still worried and wondering when a shoe is gonna drop)
 
Doing some rereading and my paranoia has me wondering. We've been worried about having Askel around Elrisse. What if that's not the only human member she might be keeping an eye on? (yes yes I am still worried and wondering when a shoe is gonna drop)
It's not illegal to hold Druid beliefs while being a member of the Jade Order.

It is illegal to be practicing magic while not being a member of the Colleges.

Aksel would be 100% in the clear if he was a member of the Grey Order. Or if he genuinely was a miracle-using Priest rather than a member of the Hedgewise.
 
What about Norsca?

Back in the old days, when Chaos was even further North than it is now, and humans weren't a concern to the Golden Age Asur and Dawi - surely the network covered Norsca too? Is it just too dangerous to map, or does Mathilde take it as a given that the network's been completely obliterated, with nothing to learn there?

(Also, I wonder if mapping the Badlands might give a hint about where Zorn is? Presumably they were connected to the network too.)
I think I kinda remember something about how there used to be waystones and tributaries in the Kurgan territories. (Something about grave sites?) I don't think I remember that well enough to find it in a search, but if I'm right, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say the same might have been true of Norsca too.
 
Why wouldn't they? We recruited on the same turn we started the project and they were there for laying the foundations
You're right, I forgot that. That does make recruiting Bretonnia next turn more reasonable, but I think it's still probably not the way to go. I do think this might alienate our contributors at this stage, and it'll be better to first research the Foundation and either have Waystone prototypes when we approach Bretonnia or to make it clear that we are not as close to Waystone prototypes as we thought.

I think I kinda remember something about how there used to be waystones and tributaries in the Kurgan territories. (Something about grave sites?) I don't think I remember that well enough to find it in a search, but if I'm right, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say the same might have been true of Norsca too.
We don't know about Waystone, but there were apparently tributaries. Mathilde mentioned them in the first meeting of the Waystone project:
"In the time when those who brought the One had fallen and the birth-blood of the Green of Two first rained upon the world, the Four shackled the Eight and unleashed their endless armies upon the world to tear down those across the blue plains. We despaired that our Gods had turned from us. The Khans gathered together with their Shamans to set right the balance of the world. The first of the kurgans was built there, to be forever guarded by the Khans buried beneath it. Now once more do the Eight fly free and the Four ply us with tribute to see their will done." This one was a lot of pictographic guesswork, but neither Niedzwenka or Zlata seem upset with your creativity with the words of their ancestors.
Just to be clear, the kurgans mentioned there aren't the Kurgan people, they're burial mounds - though I bet that Kurgans had kurgans too, that's where the name comes from. The option to study them is in our tributaries section:
[ ] Waystone: Tributaries
Specify which type: Scythian, Lornalim.
The Scythians are the ancestors of the Gospodar and the Kurgans, and they came from the Eastern Steppes. This is actually a bit puzzling because it implies there was some part of the network in the Eastern Steppes, unless the Scythians only started building their kurgans when they reached Kislev I guess.
 
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At times, Scythian territory stretched into the eastern parts of what is now the Empire. Some of what are assumed to be Imperial Tribe barrows in the eastern provinces are actually Scythian kurgans, though nobody's surveyed them to figure out the exact proportion because a lot of them sleep very lightly ever since the Vampire Wars.
 
At times, Scythian territory stretched into the eastern parts of what is now the Empire. Some of what are assumed to be Imperial Tribe barrows in the eastern provinces are actually Scythian kurgans, though nobody's surveyed them to figure out the exact proportion because a lot of them sleep very lightly ever since the Vampire Wars.
I had a flashback to the tomb that Mathilde broke into back in turn 9 alongside Kasmir and Abelhelm. The idea that that could have been a tributary at some point before Vlad came along and destroyed the waystones proper of Sylvania is intriguing.
 
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Introduction to Laurelorn Forest, by Mathilde Weber
Class Title: Introduction to Laurelorn Forest, by Mathilde Weber

Class Objective: To provide an overview of the history, geography, and notable features of the Laurelorn Forest, as taught by Lady Magister Mathilde Weber.

Class Duration: 4 hours

Agenda:

1. Introduction (15 minutes)
- Self-introduction and the topic of the class
- Explain the objectives of the class

2. History of the Laurelorn Forest (45 minutes)
- Discuss the origins of the forest
- Explain the role of the forest in the history of the Empire
- Highlight significant events that have taken place in the forest

3. Geography of the Laurelorn Forest (45 minutes)
- Discuss the size and location of the forest
- Explain the terrain and climate of the forest
- Highlight notable landmarks within the forest

4. Notable Features of the Laurelorn Forest (60 minutes)
- Discuss the various elven factions that reside within the forest
- Explain the significance of the forest spirits and the role they play in the forest
- Highlight notable dignitaries and personalities that inhabit the forest

5. Conclusion (15 minutes)
- Recap the main points discussed in the class
- Discourage further exploration of the Laurelorn Forest.

6. Q&A (60 minutes)
- Answer any questions from class participants
 
2. History of the Laurelorn Forest (45 minutes)
- Explain the role of the forest in the history of the Empire

3. Geography of the Laurelorn Forest (45 minutes)
- Discuss the size and location of the forest
- Explain the terrain and climate of the forest
You probably weren't actually looking for constructive feedback on your fictional lecture but that you are doing history without first establishing the space is something I can't not comment on:V
 
You probably weren't actually looking for constructive feedback on your fictional lecture but that you are doing history without first establishing the space is something I can't not comment on:V

Well you have to explain things sequentially in a manner valuable to the attendees. Why would a Imperial mage care about the geography before understanding the history in relation to the Empire? Frankly, I think Gepette did rather well in providing this agenda for the Lady Magister.
 
You probably weren't actually looking for constructive feedback on your fictional lecture but that you are doing history without first establishing the space is something I can't not comment on:V
"Now, some of you may have been unsure what forest I was speaking about for the last 45 minutes. This is fair, between the Great Forest, Forest of Shadows, Altern Forest, Gryphon's Wood, Dead Wood, Drakwood Forest, Reikland Forest and also Laurelorn, we have a lot of them. If you are in this situation, you should have done some basic familiarisation with the subject rather than stumbling into my lecture at random."
:V:V:V
 
"Now, some of you may have been unsure what forest I was speaking about for the last 45 minutes. This is fair, between the Great Forest, Forest of Shadows, Altern Forest, Gryphon's Wood, Dead Wood, Drakwood Forest, Reikland Forest and also Laurelorn, we have a lot of them. If you are in this situation, you should have done some basic familiarisation with the subject rather than stumbling into my lecture at random."
:V:V:V
Two consistent throughlines of their history are their desirable natural resources and their defensible but isolating borders. Even within this story that Schadensumpf keeps popping up.
 
Caledorians send their children they think can ride dragons to the White Tower, their actual write-up never comes out and says it but that's the only way the Dragon Mages makes sense.
The write-up actually comes up and says the opposite, that Dragon mages are students of the Tower who don't know they can ride dragons, but find out.

It does indeed bear mentioning that minor wars between the Empire and, say, Bretonnia aren't exactly uncommon. As a wizard we're much more cognizant of threats to the spiritual wellbeing of world, so it seems very irrational to us, but a lot of nobles and powerful people on either side feel very strongly about things we don't care about in a way that burns resources we're counting on to do actual good with.
Minor wars? Like, sure there's probably always some level of conflict going on between every polity, it's that kind of time period, but for reference, the Third Parravon War lasted twelve years and had Altdorf under seige for one of those, and the Fourth lasted three years, and ended when Dieter IV bribed Parravon to leave (I think this is the one and only time Dieter ever did something actually sensible).
 
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Two consistent throughlines of their history are their desirable natural resources and their defensible but isolating borders. Even within this story that Schadensumpf keeps popping up.
Not sure what you're trying to say.
The defensible but isolating borders are a heavily controlled and prepared forest, not a natural gathering of Ulgu that prevents people from finding it on a map.
 
Yes, we're being blunt, forceful, manipulative, and a little rude. But we have too, because the Old World is a feudalistic hellhole trapped in the grip of unenlightened self interest, and if we have to back them into a corner where they have no choice but to work with us for mutual benefit, then we have no choice but to engineer that scenario.

This feels rather out of character for Mathilde. Yeah, she's openminded and interested in new cultures but she has no in character reason to be insistently and proactively building the Ordertide beyond what she's already doing.

Mathilde is primarily focused on her projects and responsibilities in the Empire and the Karaz Ankor with some extra consideration for the Eonir and Kislev. Bretonnia doesn't really offer all that much to her areas of interest and if the Empire or the Dawi need better connections to Bretonnia for some reason or another they've all got other people for it - people who aren't coordinating a research project with half the continent and who don't have multiple paradigm shifting personal projects.
 
Not sure what you're trying to say.
The defensible but isolating borders are a heavily controlled and prepared forest, not a natural gathering of Ulgu that prevents people from finding it on a map.
Geography doesn't stop at pointing at a map and - in this example - telling everyone which patch of forest we are talking about. My initial comment was that it's awkward to explain a section of history without having first set the stage by detailing the space the history was shaped by.
 
I would be surprised if Nagarythe had a substantial part of the network left. The Druchii use mostly Dhar, so leaving them around is directly against their benefits, and Nagarythe is historically the most fought-over place in Ulthuan. There'd be little point for the Asur to put up new waystones in there, given how quickly its territories switch hands.

Actually I'd imagine the Drucchi would rather just stop up waystones rather than destroy them - it's a very convenient way to gather a bunch of dhar in one place without effort.
 
This feels rather out of character for Mathilde. Yeah, she's openminded and interested in new cultures but she has no in character reason to be insistently and proactively building the Ordertide beyond what she's already doing.

Mathilde is primarily focused on her projects and responsibilities in the Empire and the Karaz Ankor with some extra consideration for the Eonir and Kislev. Bretonnia doesn't really offer all that much to her areas of interest and if the Empire or the Dawi need better connections to Bretonnia for some reason or another they've all got other people for it - people who aren't coordinating a research project with half the continent and who don't have multiple paradigm shifting personal projects.

Thing is, Boney has managed to thread an impossible needle, and while Mathilde is quite a vivid character, her actual motivations are opaque enough to support any and all of her given choices, and many possible long term plannings regardless.

Is it out of character for Mathilde to want an Ordertide? No, actually, maybe she is not sure what to define as "Order" because it is not as clear in universe (and it is not always as clear out of universe, Vampires can be arguably called Order), and maybe she des not have a concrete plan or desire, as she has no clear plan to achieve it and she pointedly avoid thinking about things she does not have a clear plan about. But she repeatedly goes for diplomacy and peace when such a thing is an option, even when the people on the other side are unpleasant. She dos, consistently, try to bring the Order factions together in order to achieve diplomatic gains for everyone.

Now would it be out of character for Mathilde to NOT want an Ordertide? Also no. As I said, Mathilde is amazingly written for a quest protagonist, and her motives are opaque. Everything she has done can be justified in two or three different ways, at least. Plus, she is pragmatic enough to discard even what she wants if she sees a better, or more achievable plan.

But my point is, Mathilde's wants, desires and plans are opaque enough that, until clarified by voters, a lot can be argued about them. Wanting an Ordertide, (not in these terms), aka wanting the civilised realms to work together to achieve greater things, is something that could be fully in character, until votes clarify her personality otherwise.
 
Thing is, Boney has managed to thread an impossible needle, and while Mathilde is quite a vivid character, her actual motivations are opaque enough to support any and all of her given choices, and many possible long term plannings regardless.

Is it out of character for Mathilde to want an Ordertide? No, actually, maybe she is not sure what to define as "Order" because it is not as clear in universe (and it is not always as clear out of universe, Vampires can be arguably called Order), and maybe she des not have a concrete plan or desire, as she has no clear plan to achieve it and she pointedly avoid thinking about things she does not have a clear plan about. But she repeatedly goes for diplomacy and peace when such a thing is an option, even when the people on the other side are unpleasant. She dos, consistently, try to bring the Order factions together in order to achieve diplomatic gains for everyone.

Now would it be out of character for Mathilde to NOT want an Ordertide? Also no. As I said, Mathilde is amazingly written for a quest protagonist, and her motives are opaque. Everything she has done can be justified in two or three different ways, at least. Plus, she is pragmatic enough to discard even what she wants if she sees a better, or more achievable plan.

But my point is, Mathilde's wants, desires and plans are opaque enough that, until clarified by voters, a lot can be argued about them. Wanting an Ordertide, (not in these terms), aka wanting the civilised realms to work together to achieve greater things, is something that could be fully in character, until votes clarify her personality otherwise.
This is extremely well-said. My favorite example of Boney pulling this off is this scene:
Afterwards, Panoramia lingers as the rest of the Wizards file out. "Hey," you say with a smile.

"Hey," she replies.

"Something wrong?"

"You haven't asked me if I'm coming," she says softly.

"I figured you'd tell me when you decided if you would."

"Do you want me to come?"

You take a moment to consider that. "I have a preference," you admit, "but it's much less important to me than you deciding for yourself."

She smiles. "That's sweet of you." She sighs, and stretches out her legs while leaning back in her chair. "I think I could. Missing most of the spring would set the timetable back, but probably only by a year - the Halflings know the conditions well enough to maintain them. I think. And it's not like the Karak is in danger of starving, or running out of gold to buy food." She looks at you. "What's it like up there?"

"It's the same terrain as the Veldt in Ostermark. It all seems shockingly normal, except for the sky. The Winds blow so hard that they can't settle, and they flow in rivers overhead, lighting up the sky. It's supposed to be worse further north, but Kurgan land stretches all the way up to the Karag so I think logically it can't be any worse than Mordheim. I suppose it makes sense that it couldn't be too disrupted until it's nearer the pole, there's supposed to be Norscan tribes living as far north as the far side of the Frozen Sea."

"Do you think it will succeed?"

"Succeed," you muse. "I think it'll find out what happened. I think that if it's necessary, I can make the Expedition turn around. And I think that in the worst case scenario, I can make it home."

"I'll hold you to that." She goes quiet as she considers it some more. "I don't think I can. I've been doing this for seven years. If I went north, my mind would be here the entire time. Are they keeping it in check, have there been any spore outbreaks, is the soil enrichment staying balanced without any ability to gauge it..." She sighs. "I'm sorry."

You shake your head firmly. "Don't apologize. I asked you to decide. I'm glad you did."
It is stated that Mathilde has a preference. At no point do we learn what Mathilde's preference is. Boney's style is to maintain enormous amounts of quester agency and not curtail it by telling us "what does Mathilde want," because in this quest's paradigm we are the ones who decide what she wants. And to support that, he uses all sorts of writing tricks to maintain plausible deniability and keep options open for as long as possible before we-the-voters collapse the waveform and pick something for her to do.

(Very appropriate, given that our protagonist is steeped in the power of ambiguity and self-contradiction.)
 
Thing is, Boney has managed to thread an impossible needle, and while Mathilde is quite a vivid character, her actual motivations are opaque enough to support any and all of her given choices, and many possible long term plannings regardless.

There's nothing preventing Mathilde for developing a motivation in the long term but right now she's got no immediate reason to 'Go for Bretonnia ASAP!'

That's not to say that she'd be against Bretonnia - OOC Boney does give a lot of player agency and IC Mathilde does prefer to bring people together - but it'd be due to stuff related to the Waystone project. Binding the nations of the Old World is a happy side effect.

Sure Mathilde's motivations are mysterious and opaque but she's not a blank slate: she likes dwarfs, books and Panoramia, she has a very special relationship with Ranald, she disdains Sigmar, she still remembers Van Hal, she values the Colleges and headpats from authority figures.

The Waystone project is important to her IC (or otherwise she wouldn't have invested so much time and effort into it) and is important to a majority of the thread OOC (or otherwise we wouldn't have voted to invest so much time and effort into it) - so proposing to treat it as a side effect to 'Ordertide' building is like... at least a bit weird and disjointed.
 
I agree it's not out of character for Mathilde to want increased cooperation between "Order" factions, allowing for the fact that the term is meaningless IC. I just wanted to push back against the idea that paying to bring Bretonnia onboard was going to meaningfully aid this goal - which certainly isn't the explicit goal of the Waystone Project - or that them being enthusiastic enough about joining to pay for the privilege later on would detract from it.

Going out of our way to give them a better deal at the Empire's expense isn't actually going to help anything, because they're only going to agree to deals they're happy with, one way or the other.
 
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