Depends on how the rolls go, if the lack of magical language is the thing that pushes us into failing several rolls just learning it would be more action efficient and if we just fail enough that it becomes impossible... well that is certainly AP-efficient.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Depends on how the rolls go, if the lack of magical language is the thing that pushes us into failing several rolls just learning it would be more action efficient and if we just fail enough that it becomes impossible... well that is certainly AP-efficient.
About the Ulrican stuff... Something I've wondered about, when I heard about the potential possibility of Ulric worship spreading to Eonir, was the following;
what if it's Ulric trying to spread his worship?
To increase his domain or territory, as it were. He has Imperials worshipping him. Kislevites too. Even some Norscans. Now, he suddenly has the potential possibility of having some Elves worship him too.
And now, we hear about Nordland trying something with Ulric worship too. What if it is also pleasing to Ulric? He gets more influence on Nordland, women worshippers again, and so on.
... I'm not entirely 100% sold on this idea. As, it sounds a bit too much like "the Gods want you to spread their worship, and they'll back your political or national rivals at the drop of a hat if it gets them more worshippers, even if you've been their's culturally and religiously for literal millennia." Ulric may be a brutal god, but undercutting your own most ancient ethnic worshippers is a bit of a move. Also, the Ar-Ulric and Todbringer holds political and religious power in the Empire, which means Ulric holds political and religious influence via the Ar-Ulric and Todbringer.
But it's possible that Ulric might look at what Nordland is doing, go "Hmmm" and rub his chin a bit.
Or, alternatively, it's Ulric hoping the Teutogens get more influence on Nordland? Sure, Nordland tries to do something and to judo Middenland... but if his Middenlanders manage to judo Nordland back, then Ulric wins even more.
what if it's Ulric trying to spread his worship?
To increase his domain or territory, as it were. He has Imperials worshipping him. Kislevites too. Even some Norscans. Now, he suddenly has the potential possibility of having some Elves worship him too.
And now, we hear about Nordland trying something with Ulric worship too. What if it is also pleasing to Ulric? He gets more influence on Nordland, women worshippers again, and so on.
... I'm not entirely 100% sold on this idea. As, it sounds a bit too much like "the Gods want you to spread their worship, and they'll back your political or national rivals at the drop of a hat if it gets them more worshippers, even if you've been their's culturally and religiously for literal millennia." Ulric may be a brutal god, but undercutting your own most ancient ethnic worshippers is a bit of a move. Also, the Ar-Ulric and Todbringer holds political and religious power in the Empire, which means Ulric holds political and religious influence via the Ar-Ulric and Todbringer.
But it's possible that Ulric might look at what Nordland is doing, go "Hmmm" and rub his chin a bit.
Or, alternatively, it's Ulric hoping the Teutogens get more influence on Nordland? Sure, Nordland tries to do something and to judo Middenland... but if his Middenlanders manage to judo Nordland back, then Ulric wins even more.
I think the problem with that is that a real schism would make the church of Ulric weaker instead of stronger. Your no longer unified against the sigmarites and that would be a hard blow to their power in the empire.
Or alternatively alternatively this is an internecine conflict built up of the complex historical and contemporary events that now has the cult edging closer and closer to the edge of violence that will cripple the Cult of Ulric and finally allow the Sigmarites to remove them as a rival. Just because something might conceivably be in a favor of a god does not mean they planned it. After all there is no more proof of the above than there is that Khorne planned the whole thing to cause a civil war.
I am for that, just to know who we are exactly dealing with. We have some ideas but a good grounding is a good grounding.
- Pronouns
- sapper
On this prince debate from before the update, a few thoughts:
- in our history, the word prince comes from the original title of Gaius Octavian Caesar, better known as Augustus, first Emperor of Rome. Rome had been a republic for a long time after it had driven out / killed it's last kings, and their elite (oligarchs) had a strong cultural aversion to the concept of having a King (monarch) again. That is partly why Caesar was murdered. Augustus, when he took over, played a polite fiction that he wasn't a Monarch, dictator for life, or tyrant. No, he was a man that upheld Rome's greatest traditions and upheld the Republic, while serving merely as First Citizen, the Princeps Civitatis. In reality, he was the 'power behind the republic' and effectively ruled as a monarch, of course, but the polite fiction held for some 3 centuries. Augustus was also a honorific title he was given, meaning something along the line of 'the venerable'.
- the conflating of names, honors and titles from Roman period to later periods is influenced by this. Imperator (military honorific for commander / victorious commander, later a title used by the rulers to emphasize their military role) became Emperor. Princeps became Prince. Caesar became both Kaiser and Tsar, among others. Dux (military commander) became Duke, Dodge, Duce, as well is still in use in some school systems as honorific for the best student of a certain class. etc
- Prince has been a number of roles in the nobility. It can be a member of the royal family. but there were also states which we know as sovereign Princedoms, which effectively is just a king who uses prince as title instead. Monaco and Liechtenstein are 2 examples, 2 sovereign states that are still ruled by a Prince. There were also non-sovereign princedoms, which basically means that a duke uses prince as title instead. These were surprisingly common among both the French Kingdom and the HRE. Here it was basically a way to give a duke a more prestigious title without giving them any actual power.
- some princedoms were really countries, but for example the Dutch monarchy still uses Prince of Orange as title for the royal heir, even though the former princedom of orange is basically a municipality in southern France that they have very little connection to in practical sense.
- the Brits still do this by calling the heir the Prince of Wales. Wales, as I understand it, was called an princedom before being conquered by English kings, but their own title for their leader in their own language may not have had the same meaning. I don't know.
- during the Italian Renaissance, Machiavelli describes any autocratic rule of a city-state as a prince. Regardless of the title they use, if that ruler was from an ancient lineage, an appointed ruler by a foreign power, or someone who through scheming or force of arms had taken power.
- then, there are all the various traditional titles in the rest of the world, which often get lumped under 'emperor, king or prince' in western description as closest analogue, but which probably aren't a good fit because of different traditions, cultures, power distributions, political and religious culture, etc. Frankly, I know way to little on this, so it's probably best if I just don't put my foot in my mouth here.
- Thus, there isn't really an answer to the question: how to address a family member of a prince? There have been so many different ways that someone can be a prince, and even if they are a prince by similar means then the way of address changes by time, by dynasty and by country. If by virtue of close kingship to a king / monarch? Probably a prince. If by kinship to a ruling Prince? Propably a different address, to avoid confusing the ruling Prince with his brother / uncle / distant cousin that might start getting ideas above their station. Then again, you might say Prince of Kiwiland to the ruling prince, and Prince/Princess Joss to the family members.
As I recall, though I don't know if this is correct and it might just be fan-material or something. Perhaps from Imrix's quests, though I really do not know.
- Ulthuan's 2 classes of nobility (prince and noble) originate from the first Chaos Invasion. The nobility that existed before the Coming of Chaos was kept around, and are called nobles. They were your bog standard aristocrats at the time, doing all the things feudal aristocrats do (raise taxes, administer law both criminal and administrative, legislate, lead military stuff) But Anaerion had his best champions and generals given special equipment made by Caledor Dragontamer and the Priests of Vaul, and this was a purely military role under him. Some nobles were undoubtedly among their number, of course. The modern day class of Princes are those that trace their ancestry to these heroes and the greatest symbol of office they can wield is those ancient artifacts from this war. For a certain extent, princedom is considered a higher prestige class of noble then 'normal nobility' because of this connection to ancient heroes
- the Princes are the ones who elect a new Phoenix King, and the other nobility is not invited.
- Now, nobles and princes have since intermarried to some decree. Some princely families have lost most of their lands and incomes, while some lower noble families have increased these.
- still, the Princely families have their pride in their ancestors and some consider themself above the nobles, even when they only rune a run-down tower house next to a 'mere' noble ruling vast estates with the associate wealth and power.
- during an election for Phoenix king, some of these noble families that have grown in power and influence but are not allowed to attend, try and become the 'power behind the prince' by getting some kind of influence / leverage over a princely family, and then using their vote as a sock puppet for their own.
if this is correct, then Prince Teclis is correct, because the title of Prince is based on his descendant from Anearion the Defender, regardless of who rules their family fief or is the Head of House
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Quick list of possible book topics I've seen mentioned:
Metallurgy- useful for the waygold action
Druchi- they are here and they are playing politics. We can't afford to ignore them
Asur- They haven't arrived yet, but see above
Asrai- Dwarven books on them could help us navigate the whole Bugman's nexus issue.
Tilea/Estalia- could be useful for mapping that part of the world
Bretonnia- could be useful for mapping that part of the world, plus diplomacy
Nehekara- Useful for the coin papers and also for the vampire scrolls. We also need to learn the language at some point
Elven pantheon- useful for lore and god stuff
Be aware that next turn, we are going to ransack the libraries of Nuln pretty heavily, so it might be better to lean into topics that are either needed this turn, or are obscure enough that we can't expect imperial sources to be of much use.
Metallurgy, Druchi, and Asrai are perhaps my pick, with maybe out of pocket expenses on Nehekara on top?
Edit- Ethics, moral philosophy, and Shallya for Eike as well maybe? We'll probably pick that up in the Nuln sweep however.
Metallurgy- useful for the waygold action
Druchi- they are here and they are playing politics. We can't afford to ignore them
Asur- They haven't arrived yet, but see above
Asrai- Dwarven books on them could help us navigate the whole Bugman's nexus issue.
Tilea/Estalia- could be useful for mapping that part of the world
Bretonnia- could be useful for mapping that part of the world, plus diplomacy
Nehekara- Useful for the coin papers and also for the vampire scrolls. We also need to learn the language at some point
Elven pantheon- useful for lore and god stuff
Be aware that next turn, we are going to ransack the libraries of Nuln pretty heavily, so it might be better to lean into topics that are either needed this turn, or are obscure enough that we can't expect imperial sources to be of much use.
Metallurgy, Druchi, and Asrai are perhaps my pick, with maybe out of pocket expenses on Nehekara on top?
Edit- Ethics, moral philosophy, and Shallya for Eike as well maybe? We'll probably pick that up in the Nuln sweep however.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The main argument against Druuchi as a Barak Varr purchase is that we'd only get Imperial books. So I'm currently leaning towards Metallurgy/Bretonnia/Athel Loren and out of pocketing the Druuchi books.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I feel like buying books is such big waste that sometimes I wish we had otherways to spend money.
Can't we just buy a spy in Nordland instead? That would be useful and not something we could get free from the great deed we already spent for it.
Can't we just buy a spy in Nordland instead? That would be useful and not something we could get free from the great deed we already spent for it.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Whose plot is this:
1. Ulric
2. Khorne
3. To Everyone's Surprise, Mork
4. RANAAAALLLLDDDD
5. Eshin Friend
6. Actually it's Tzeentch manipulating Ranald who's manipulating Ulric
Only if we weren't ever going to learn those magical languages otherwise.
And it's possible that an initial poorer result because we don't know more magical languages produces an irrevocable loss, like codifying RoW being impossible or always worse/harder to cast than it would have been otherwise.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I see the motor is running overdrive now.
Politically minded, as he's known for.
Oof. And that's from someone who lived in an isolated mountain on the other side of the continent until recently.
That makes sense. Umgi are mud, a generations old Dwarf family that has adapted to not just living among them, but thriving and partially ruling over the muddiest of them would be just a bit better than mud.
Mathilde literally has luxury runes in her appartment. In her bathroom iirc. She also has the transcribing rune in her White Tower. And the refrigerator runes that were inscribed by a bunch of Thorek's apprentices could also be used as luxury runes. Then there's utility runes like the ones that allow her to easily rearrange the dungeon that she currently has Qretch in. Also fun to use in a luxury house.
I for one am very happy about Thorek right now. I don't think most Runesmiths would have made strengthening political bonds and enriching the Karaz Ankor economically a priority. It might come at the cost of Waystone relevant runic research, but it's not like a different typical Runelord would have been any happier to share notes anyway.
Don't know what much to say other than that this is major.
This scene feels omake-worthy.
The idea that the Empire can compete in consistent quality when an economically minded Dwarf is on the job was kinda hopeless anyway.
I assume "Luxury Runes" are different from runes that enable luxurious living. That said, it's not a term I've ever heard before, so I'm unsure what a Luxury Rune is that makes it distinct from any other kind of rune.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Non-combat application. The sort of stuff that Kazrik made the abbacus for Edda with, i imagine.
Probably made with anti-tampering measures in mind. You think opening up your machine voiding warranty is bad? How about it exploding in your face while dissintegrating.
Mathilde thought them lost because Kragg said so back in the update about the axe about the work runes just... sort of disappearing, so it makes sense Thorek would have to be the one to rediscover them.
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So, fun fact - except for Metallurgy and Shallya, almost* every topic you mentioned falls under Social Science, and books on Shallya only go up to Imperial Extensive so that's a measely 2 BOÖK. So here's what I propose: right now we buy Metallurgy/Bretonnia/Athel Loren, which just happens to be my preferred purchase anyway but is also efficient - those are topics Dwarves and Empire both have books on, and I'm pretty sure Bretonnia and Athel Loren are topics we can get the full +10 books on (is this a true thing or did I hallucinate it? it's been long enough that I don't remember if there was ever a WoG that says this outright or implies it or what). Then next turn we can Backfill on social science, which is a good option for getting 'inefficient' topics that won't give us the full +10 if we get them through the Barak Varr option such as the Druchii and I think Tilea, and should also shore up our Ethics and Nehekara section if Nuln doesn't give us enough.
*Elven pantheon isn't, but I think our only source on elven religion is Eonir books
- Location
- United States
Man. 2 favor short of prepping for the galaxy dunk.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I want to note that Ulric is in fact worshipped in northern Bretonnia as well. I think there's even a noble house known for venerating him more than the Lady.
Not Talabecland?
I don't know if Nordlander Ulricans are that good at realizing intersectional discrimination. "How dare they accept Elves more than Humans of different ancestry or gender than themselves" might be a common argument up there.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
There's no WoB on it. I'm extremely confident that Dwarves have books on Athel Loren and Imperials have books on Bretonnia. I am highly confident that Imperials have books on Athel Loren. I am only moderately confident that dwarves have a full +5 on Bretonnia, because on the one hand, it's been bordered by minor holds for a long time, but on the other hand, *minor* holds.
We would have to wait anyway; Boney confirmed back in December that Mathilde would want to do the Orbs in the Room of Calamity, and it won't be up until T43. We could risk it, but we're not under time pressure.
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In this context, 'luxury rune' doesn't mean 'any rune that can be used to make live more comfortable in some way'. It means runes invented specifically for the purpose of making high-value consumer goods with no military applications.
Mathilde dismissed the possibility of exporting human-smelted ingots to the Elves right from the start, that's why her plan is for ore that the Elves could smelt themselves to their own standards.
Yes, though in the case of Dwarf books on Bretonnia it's only because they've had 1500 years to accumulate.
If there's one thing dwarfs have, it's space to put something in that might be needed later.
Later might be "in the next 3 millennia" but you never know.
There's probably *some* imperial books on elven gods. If only things like, 'Why manaan is not mathlann, we mean it!' By the cult of manaan. Or stuff yelling at people to stop worshipping a murder god.
Talabecland, it turns out, like having Taal in there with Rhya for their nature worship. Nordland has an unfortunate history with the sort of people that live in forests, which probably doesn't do favors for Taal worship.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Source? Offhand I don't recall that in Knights of the Grail.
The records of that one time in 1647 IC when the Duke of Montfort sold moldy grains to Karak Azgaraz may not be, strictly speaking, "useful", but will our library really be complete without it?
I think Boney said at some point that each +1 in our library means like an armful of books or a few high quality books, so "non-zero writing on the subject exists" is not nessacerily enough to mean books are available for library purchase. I guess some stuff on general elf religion might fall under books on the Asur?