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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SITB said:
I don't want to do the Ithilmar deal because it goes against the EIC policies, specifically "Don't skin the sheep". I think that the "Don't skin the sheep" policy is a good idea and don't want to erode it for a cash.
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That's not what that is about. Skinning the sheep would selling them fake Ithilmar, or taking a payment and then not delivering. It's about making short term profit at the cost of long term profit.
But simply making a profit on a one-time deal is no problem, and it wouldn't be the first time. Remember when Wilhelmina bought up the lands Roswita was offering and not getting many takers, just before the veterans from the initial K8P campaign were set to return? And how she was able to do it, because Mathilde was a local agent and could give her an information advantage?

Was that a problem? I'd argue that was more sketchy, because the entire profit of that part of the trade came at the expense of Roswita's income, who was fighting a war against vampires at the moment. Compared to that, getting the elfs to pay for some trinkets seems rather small.
 
BurnNote said:
That's not what that is about. Skinning the sheep would selling them fake Ithilmar, or taking a payment and then not delivering. It's about making short term profit at the cost of long term profit.
But simply making a profit on a one-time deal is no problem, and it wouldn't be the first time. Remember when Wilhelmina bought up the lands Roswita was offering and not getting many takers, just before the veterans from the initial K8P campaign were set to return? And how she was able to do it, because Mathilde was a local agent and could give her an information advantage?

Was that a problem? I'd argue that was more sketchy, because the entire profit of that part of the trade came at the expense of Roswita's income, who was fighting a war against vampires at the moment. Compared to that, getting the elfs to pay for some trinkets seems rather small.
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An arguably sketchy real estate deal in Stirland in which Wilhelmina - a Sitrlander who used to work for the Elector Count - used some inside information is neither very visible and nor obviously tied to Mathilde. Buying Ithilmar from the various private collections of the Empire will be very visible, the update was clear on this. It will also be very obviously tied to Mathilde since, again, Mathilde is the only EIC asset in Tor Lithanel. In fact I am pretty sure that Mathilde and her employees are the only Imperials who have permanent residence in Tor Lithanel.
 
I recognize that our vow of poverty is designed with loopholes in mind and doesn't actually prevent us from getting rich. Doing an action that has no other purpose than making us rich, an action that skirts reeaally close to selling weapons to an adverse political entity, and doing it openly and obviously where any of the various interested parties can see... It feels bad, both morally and politically.

We can spend that action on any number of other long-term items that are way less sketchy and help way more diplomatically, at the low cost of getting us money over a slower period of time. Unless I'm mistaken we don't particularly need a giant injection of funds right now, so I don't see why ithilmar would be the better choice.
 
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CrimsonOddball said:
WHFRPG 2e Knights of the Grail gives any character with at least one Knightly Virtue Talent the ability to gain a Gift of the Lady if they spend a few minutes praying before a battle
These are unambiguously divine blessings, though they're fairly lowkey as divine blessings go. More "Gain an extra point of armor on all locations" or "Gain slightly increased resistance to magic", rather than "become immune to bullets"
They're also explicitly only 1 blessing at a time, so no stacking benefits with each other

Granted this is probably at least in part because WHFRPG's play style is gritty low level characters, but that's the Doylistic reason
In universe the average Brettonian knight definitely doesn't seem like Superman
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I think the lore reason re: Knights of the Grail and their blessings is a huge spoiler regarding the true nature of the Bretonnian religion?
 
I'm somewhat bemused by all of these arguments popping up about the Vow of Poverty. We know it's not a problem because if it was the Spice trade we literally just set up would be just as problematic, because it's an action made available by Boney, and because at no point in Mathilde's internal monologue has even a flicker of concern regarding the Vow come up.

If it looked sketchy, Mathilde would have noted "this looks a little sketchy" when outlining the action. If it were an actual breach of the Vow of Poverty - a Vow designed to have wide loopholes because it's there to fix specific problems, none of which this breaches - it wouldn't have been floated as an option.

The idea that Mathilde telling the EIC there's a big opportunity here being a problem when her living it up in 600g apartments in Laurelorn hasn't been commented upon by anybody is a bit farcical, to be honest.
 
DragonParadox said:
Specifically it is putting our money in the pockets of House Miriel, the smiths and Vaul worshipers, who are isolationists
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I don't think the Ithilmar would help House Miriel. The Empire doesn't have raw ingots, they have a semi random assortment of weapons gifted by or looted from the Asur. Unless we sell them directly to House Miriel then it's basically exactly what they are afraid of: competition in high end goods from Ulthuan.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I'm somewhat bemused by all of these arguments popping up about the Vow of Poverty. We know it's not a problem because if it was the Spice trade we literally just set up would be just as problematic, because it's an action made available by Boney, and because at no point in Mathilde's internal monologue has even a flicker of concern regarding the Vow come up.

If it looked sketchy, Mathilde would have noted "this looks a little sketchy" when outlining the action. If it were an actual breach of the Vow of Poverty - a Vow designed to have wide loopholes because it's there to fix specific problems, none of which this breaches - it wouldn't have been floated as an option.

The idea that Mathilde telling the EIC there's a big opportunity here being a problem when her living it up in 600g apartments in Laurelorn hasn't been commented upon by anybody is a bit farcical, to be honest.
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I strongly agree with this (well, except for the "an action made available by Boney" bit; he's given us the option to break the Vow before, but they were signposted as such).
Boney said:
Things the Vow of Poverty does:
- Reassures the citizens of the Empire that the extremely abusable Shadow Magic is in the hands of a group that has strict rules against abusing it.
- Makes it so that if it does appear that someone is abusing it, the first reaction of influential people that hear of it would be to dob them in to the Grey Order, making them able to punish or reassure as appropriate. This makes it so that any negative rumours of Grey Wizards reach the ears of the Grey Order very quickly.
- Gives the Grey Order a way to police its members that does not set uncomfortable precedents for the other Orders.
- Gives the Grey Order a relatively benign pretence to start rooting through any Grey Wizard's affairs, even if they're suspected of something much worse than economic malfeasance.
- Gives the Grey Order a great deal of control over who Grey Wizards end up working for, as anything even slightly amiss can be investigated as potentially running afoul of the Vow.
- Makes Grey Wizards think hard before accepting any job, forcing them at least consider it in terms of what benefit it provides to the Empire, and if there is none, they have to either turn the job down or make it provide some benefit.
- Filters out any potential Wizards who are motivated by a desire for wealth, who might otherwise find the Wind of being extremely sneaky and deceptive very attractive.
- Makes it so the Grey Order, which does not have hugely profitable cash cows like alchemy for the Golds or fortune telling for the Celestials, is able to ensure that its Wizards are properly paying the tithe.
- Puts a test of character in front of all Journeymen Grey Wizards. If they strictly abide by the Vow, then they're suitable for one set of jobs. If they're able to negotiate its loopholes without crossing any lines or raising any stinks, then they're a good fit for a different set of jobs. If they chafe at it and fall to temptation, then better they fall to the temptation of money now than the temptations of the Chaos Gods a decade down the line.

The Vow does seem deceptive, ambiguous, and inconsistent. It's meant to, because that's what Ulgu is. Grey Wizards spend ten years learning how to think like Ulgu before they're let out into the world. Thinking their way through the byzantine snarl of the Vow of Poverty is as natural to them as casting the spells of Shadow Magic.

Things it is not:
- It is not a vow to exist only in a state of poverty.
- It is not a absolutist deontological taboo against ever taking any action that might disadvantage any citizen of the Empire.
- It is not a signed death warrant for every Grey Wizard just in case the Order needs it.
- It is not a vow against exploiting people with magic, only against doing so for the wrong reasons.

TL;DR:
If Mathilde isn't worried, you shouldn't be worried.
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Note the bolded text at the bottom.
Boney said:
The first answer you stumble across is one of the most obvious: Ithilmar, the sky-silver of Ulthuan, found only in the occasional eruptions from the volcano of Vaul's Anvil in Caledor. Light as silk and hard as steel, it allows the lightest and most delicate of weapons to retain an edge throughout an entire battle, and for the swiftest and most graceful of warriors to be armoured without encumberment. It is often described as priceless, but that is because the ones doing the describing are the sort of adventurers and mercenaries who come away with that impression after finding themselves unable to acquire it at the local blacksmith. Pieces of it do circulate throughout the Empire, either sold through Marienburg, dug up from former Elven settlements, or acquired from unscrupulous traders who barter with the Norscans or the Fire Dwarves for their plunder, and though the price asked for them is always exorbitant, the price that Laurelorn would pay to acquire some more would be greater still, as the amount available to them has only dwindled since they were cut off from Ulthuan. This would require a huge amount of liquid capital to act upon and would likely draw a lot of attention as astronomic offers are made for various items within private collections, but would greatly enrich whoever is first to act upon the opportunity.

...

So, you summarize to yourself, there is a high (and highly-visible) short-term profit to be made in the trade in Ithilmar, some profit to be made in raw materials with unknown long-term prospects, and long-term opportunities in supplying small amounts of spices and dyes. There's a significant opportunity in the possibility of smelting in Tor Lithanel, but it will require significant investment and the supply needs to be able to get to the Sea of Claws by boat without passing through Marienburg. But there's one good that the Empire is able to supply easily and in bulk, and that Tor Lithanel has an untapped demand for: charcoal.
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Note how Mathilde has zero worry about the Vow of Poverty here. As such, per Boney, we should not be worried. This isn't Mathilde making a profit, it's the EIC making a profit. Mathilde is unlikely to see substantial gain from it; she gets her money from dividends rather than from just a cut of gross profits from the company's transactions, and because of Wilhelmina's attitudes about slow and steady expansion, she's likely to plow almost all of the proceeds back into the company rather than pay them out as dividends to shareholders. Maybe she'd realize a personal profit of a few hundred gc? Maybe a thousand? A lot, but we make 200gc/turn passively, so it's not a gamechanging amount of money.

Now, I still don't think it's a great idea, because I don't like how visible it is. I'm not worried about Mathilde personally getting in trouble with the Order for her vows, I'm worried about the EIC drawing heat as it makes a big public move; I feel like there are a lot of people who would take exception to that, especially Nordland. Making a ton of money by arbitraging rare magical materials to a neighbor polity with whom we are not in fact allied feels like the sort of thing that would provoke both mercantile and political backlash. But we really don't need to worry about the Bursar getting shirty with us over it.
 
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101001101 said:
I think the lore reason re: Knights of the Grail and their blessings is a huge spoiler regarding the true nature of the Bretonnian religion?
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The lore reason doesn't really exist. The closest canon ever came to an explanation was that the Lady was actually Lileath, which both failed to explain it and was widely regarded as being poorly written, probably not helped by the reveal being in End Times, a less than highly regarded source.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
The lore reason doesn't really exist. The closest canon ever came to an explanation was that the Lady was actually Lileath, which both failed to explain it and was widely regarded as being poorly written, probably not helped by the reveal being in End Times, a less than highly regarded source.
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The actual "Bretonnia is led by Elves" thing goes as far back as 6th Edition and was heavily signposted, albeit inconsistent in the details, but really thats more of a testament to how badly End Times fumbles the bag on any reveal.

Volkmar being Sigmar's descendant is offhandedly acknowledged right as he dies. I find that to be a greater sin because afaik he wasnt even hinted to be related to Sigmar before End Times threw it onto the table.
 
If we want to truly put the ithilmar talk to rest, we could just ask Boney directly on the matter. Just saying.
 
Personally I dislike the idea. We are trusted by the Grey Order and the Empire generally with a controlling share of the EIC, and part of the reasoning was through it we could better fulfill our duties toward the Empire. Great, but that means when exercising that control we ought to ensure it's always to take actions that help the Empire, not just help the EIC specifically. We're not in it for ourselves, or for the EIC, we're in it for the Empire.
 
Personally I'm against it because it would seem like delivering weapons material to the eonir. Nordland would be pretty miffed and it would be for a actual reason and not just posturing. The optics just aren't really great for us. If someone else wants to do it then fine, let them make the money, but the trade company partially owned by a wizard who is right now heading a project in laurelorn selling weapons material to them seem very mercenary.
 
Boney said:
This would require a huge amount of liquid capital to act upon and would likely draw a lot of attention as astronomic offers are made for various items within private collections, but would greatly enrich whoever is first to act upon the opportunity.
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Boney said:
So, you summarize to yourself, there is a high (and highly-visible) short-term profit to be made in the trade in Ithilmar,
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Mathilde is kinda paranoid, and considers any amount of public attention to be "too much attention". What's likely to happen is some people learn there's a highly eccentric lord magister who wants to buy some elven goods for weird wizard reasons, and she's got a lot of money to make it happen.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Mathilde is kinda paranoid, and considers any amount of public attention to be "too much attention". What's likely to happen is some people learn there's a highly eccentric lord magister who wants to buy some elven goods for weird wizard reasons, and she's got a lot of money to make it happen.
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The problem is that it wouldn't be a wizard buying them, but a trade company. People are much more weirded out about a trade company spending tens of thousands on weird elven relics, and if they follow the money they find that they were then sold to the scary wood elves.
 
I don't think taking the action would be a major issue, but I also don't really see any major upsides to it.

One spin you could put on it is that if the EIC is meant to be propping up the Van Hals (which was the excuse we gave to the Stirlandian perpetual), and given that Roswita has a bit of an upkeep problem at the moment, it could make sense in the framing of diverting that windfall to support Stirland, assuming it registers on that scale.
 
I'm ambivalent on the Ithilmar trade because I have no idea how it will affect the internal politics of Laurelorn. It probably won't weaken Miriel much in the long term, but it might anger them enough to do something. But it could win us friends among elves who can afford Ithilmar weapons, but are currently thwarted by low supply.
 
Codex said:
The actual "Bretonnia is led by Elves" thing goes as far back as 6th Edition and was heavily signposted, albeit inconsistent in the details, but really thats more of a testament to how badly End Times fumbles the bag on any reveal.

Volkmar being Sigmar's descendant is offhandedly acknowledged right as he dies. I find that to be a greater sin because afaik he wasnt even hinted to be related to Sigmar before End Times threw it onto the table.
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Bretonnia and the Lady have pretty much always had some connection to the Elves, but it being Lileath specifically was an End Times only thing AFAIK.
 
I think the roots of it are as simple as the Fay being deeply involved in the Arthurian mythos that Bretonnia is based on, with Morgan le Fay becoming the Fay Enchantress. The Venn diagram between Fairies and Elves in mythology is a deeply complicated, the short version being that Fairies are Celtic (Seelie, Tuatha De Danann) and Elves are Germanic (Ljosalfar of Alfheimr, Dokkalfar, Svartalfar), and the two got intertwined by Germanic migration to the British Isles - which, interestingly, is also the subject of the original Arthurian mythos - and were later codified into the beings of Fairyland by the likes of Chaucer and Shakespeare, and then separated once more into two distinct groups in Tolkienian fantasy, one tall and smug, one small and winged.

But Warhammer doesn't draw from a mere singular set of mythology or literature. The High Elves of Ulthuan are achingly Tolkienian, the Dark Elves of Naggaroth are Germanic in basic origin but deeply influenced by Gygax and RA Salvatore, and the Wood Elves of Athel Loren hark back to old mythology of the Fay and the Wild Hunt. This kitchen sink approach to influences is part of what makes Warhammer so interesting, but also means that if you ask the question 'are the Elves involved in Bretonnia', then you can stake out a number of different and extremely defensible positions based on the external influences before you even crack open a sourcebook.
 
Boney said:
The Venn diagram between Fairies and Elves in mythology is a deeply complicated, the short version being that Fairies are Celtic (Seelie, Tuatha De Danann) and Elves are Germanic (Ljosalfar of Alfheimr, Dokkalfar, Svartalfar), and the two got intertwined by Germanic migration to the British Isles -
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The long version has a digression into how Svartalfar are frequently glossed as dwarfs, making everything even more complicated. :V
 
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