Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Yes, and he didn't have the 'liquid of insta-make liminal realms'.
I do think that would make a difference in what he can accomplish.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I do think that would make a difference in what he can accomplish.
In making liminal realms. I don't see why it would do anything whatsoever in helping build defences against daemonic intrusion.
That's the issue we're uniquely capable of confirming if it's an actual problem and of finding what other makers of such realms have done to protect them if so.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Literally any wizard with AV and the knowledge of how to make a powerstone can turn it into a liminal realm. Why are you so certain that secret lore that only Mathilde can get is a necessary component of how to make it? We made the liminal realm. The problem was that there was a demon nearby who took advantage of the opportunity to talk to us. It is not an inherently demon-attracting activity, and "how to ward off demons" is not a thing wizards need secret lore to do. It is a well-studied topic!
It would make our AV book less impressive to not have made a liminal realm without an evil bird showing up, but other researchers could definitely take it from here if we chose to spend our time on other things.
I swear, he'd better not fake his death again just to work on liminal realms. By my back of the envelope maths, we have a 1-in-3 chance to be the next head of the College after him, and we do not have the time or the AP for that right now.
We're the only person who can check to find out if making a liminal realm automatically or frequently attracts greater daemons without having to try it. Otherwise the greater daemons could be doing things like lulling wizards into a false sense of security by allowing them to make unprotected liminal realms and not attacking for the first few years.
We can talk to the Eonir about that, as it's relevant to the Waystone project, and we can ask Gunnars, as Gazul may have done something we know worked, and he may be able to give some hints.
We don't actually know if the current method of creating liminal realms is inherently daemon attracting. We have a sample size of one. It may be, and we may need to add something to the process to reinforce the walls of the liminal realm or similar. What we do know is that our current method of making liminal realms produces realms with weaker walls than regular reality. We don't know if that's inevitable, or, I think, to what degree they're weaker.
Mathilde is uniquely capable of investigating if this is a problem and if it is what methods need to be taken to address it, as she can talk to people who know in a way no one else can. Maybe they'll say that it always attracts greater daemons and you need to be big enough and bad enough to kick them in the face and throw them right back out so you can then build anti-daemon wards, and we can know and act accordingly. Maybe they say it's bad luck. Maybe they say that it is vulnerable to Aethyric entities, so you need to dedicate to one, such as the spirit of a piece of geography or a deity. Maybe you need to put a twist in as you push the AV out of reality.
We don't know, but they probably do.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Uh, do we know that?
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
You don't end up the head of the Grey college by being the special kind of incompetent who can make a flawed Liminal Space and then have literally no paranoia about what might be lurking within when you're not looking.
Again, flawed. But given the only other examples are made by Teclis, Trees, Gods, or reality juice, I'd say it's reasonably impressive.
Algards shit hasn't flooded the grey college with Daemons yet, only paperwork.
Again, flawed. But given the only other examples are made by Teclis, Trees, Gods, or reality juice, I'd say it's reasonably impressive.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Algard's stuff isn't making a new liminal realm though, it's manipulating the already existing one Teclis built.
I'm not sure we know that he's making brand new liminal realms, rather than just folding pockets inside the one Teclis made for the Grey College, which may inherit any defences Teclis installed in the local liminal boundary.
In Mathilde's defense she heard it once 3 years ago.
Those are definitely good sources of information. But the light College also has anti demon specialists, and surely they have devised some sort of preventative measures in the last 200 years
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
There's the Towers of Screaming Death, they can't exactly be using the Grey College's LR.
- Location
- Earth
The Lights can go at it on their own after we release our findings, but Gazulites and Grey Lords won't contribute anything unless Mathilde goes to ask them first.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, that one was a repurposed failure:
It didn't do what he wanted it to, so he made it into a death trap.
Why would they know how to avoid the creation of liminal realms attracting daemonic attention when as far as we know they've never had chance to work on them?
Cython would be a better bet, but he's both someone that only Mathilde could probably ask, and he probably wouldn't even answer her, although he might if it's sold as part of a study into whether the Winds are gods or are created by a god of each Wind.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Personally, I wouldn't have the patience to delay the AV book beyond making the Orbs. Not in the middle of the Project, with Branarhune only two actions away from being finished, Apparitions on the horizon, teaching Eike, and what I assume is a growing movement to actually start handling our Arcane Marks to get a better handle on our soul.
That said, I'd love to ask Gunnars for Gazul lore at some point afterward. Incomplete skills feel like an itch I can't scratch.
That said, I'd love to ask Gunnars for Gazul lore at some point afterward. Incomplete skills feel like an itch I can't scratch.
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There was a moment of silence as Mathilde felt everyone turn to stare at her. "Then...The most suitable candidate for Order's Patriarch is Mathilde"
It echoed in the room, as Mathilde felt her research opportunities almost fly out of her grasp, panic rose it head, as the urge to stop this at all cost dominated "Y-you can't do that." Something, anything
"I'm an everchosen candidate!"
Everyone blinked, as the stares become a lot more intense. A single "What" echoed through the room.
Yes, creating a Liminal Realm via AV does not automatically attract demons. We just got really, really unlucky that demon happened to be paying enough attention to take advantage of the Liminal Realm we created in order to monologue at us.
"We understand your reluctance Dame Weber, but duty calls".
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
From an IC perspective, it's possible for the demon to have been expecting the moment of distracting, given how Tzeentch is about fate and all that. But only because we rolled badly.
Liminal Realms can be part of the Waystone Project. This isn't a distraction, it's an additional way of succeeding at it.
Algard has tried for decades to make liminal realms. Apparitions and such are a much less big deal than leveraging our contacts to learn how to do so better/more safely. It's a small investment.
Given what happened the first time a liminal realm was made by us with AV, it would be much better to be able to give some reassurance. We may assert that it was only bad luck we attracted a greater daemon the first time we made one, but it's a very big risk for Magisters to take if it turns out not to be.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
How do you expect Liminal Realms to be relevant to Waystones?
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
The Grey College's liminal realm bridges multiple parts of the city - a possible means of energy transmission if an appropriate realm could be created. The Screaming Towers, while a failure, move from place to place - another transmission option, or a way to get waystones into position after they're built.
They're not core, but they could be useful.
Cadaeth's Dreaming Wood tributary might use Liminal Realms to function.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Well, we'll find out when we do the tributary action this turn.
One of the options is:
Building a tributary from a liminal realm is an option, as that's what the Dreaming Realm is. If liminal realms are vulnerable to daemons that's relevant to that option. As is whether we can safely create liminal realms elsewhere to act as tributaries, rather than only where existing liminal realms are.
For example, now we know that the Winds can be used to make more reality inside a liminal realm. That means, hypothetically, that we might be able to make an initial small liminal realm with AV and then, say, plug it into a waystone and then pour in an equal mixture of all the Winds and expand the liminal realm in the desired direction.
That could, for example, be what a regular leyline is. In some of the sources where we see them they look a lot like tunnels through liminal space.
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