- Location
- California, USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
As someone who wasn't that interested in AV, I would really hate to leave it unfinished over one AP.
2 AP and that's a different story
2 AP and that's a different story
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Leylines as self-reinforcing liminal wind tunnels is a really interesting theory, actually.
I don't know if it's how they're actually created, but imagine if we tried to implement something like that and succeeded.
It'd be pretty up there on the 'the ancients had advanced magic beyond our understanding' scale in a few centuries, which is a metric we should always be looking to advance.
AV Actions left:
-Recreate Liminal Realm (OPTIONAL)
-Create Orbs of Sorcery
-Write Book (2 AP or 1 Max AP)
Minimum of two actions, a maximum of four. That doesn't really seem like a lot, I'm sure we can fit it in somehow. I'd rather do it properly if we have the opportunity. Besides, Rite of Way, the mushroom book, and the sword style all required an extra AP than we planned for, so this is just kinda following that pattern.
-Recreate Liminal Realm (OPTIONAL)
-Create Orbs of Sorcery
-Write Book (2 AP or 1 Max AP)
Minimum of two actions, a maximum of four. That doesn't really seem like a lot, I'm sure we can fit it in somehow. I'd rather do it properly if we have the opportunity. Besides, Rite of Way, the mushroom book, and the sword style all required an extra AP than we planned for, so this is just kinda following that pattern.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Technically we could just not 'spend' AP on writing and just write it the slow way, on our Room of Serenity. But I'm not sure people here (including me) would be that patient. Turns have become more complex and thus much longer lately.
Talking to the Grey Lords about protecting liminal realms and to Gunnars about Gazul Lore are also potential actions that could substantially improve the outcome of creating a new liminal realm.
We've just seen how incredibly badly wrong creating a liminal realm can go. Investing the time to do some prep work and gather information is very much not wasted time. Excessive impatience really doesn't help us.
And they aren't just prep actions, they're potentially very valuable in their own right. Sitting a Grey Lord down and saying that we know liminal realms have weaker boundaries with the warp than regular reality, before we invest time in using them for Waystone research we need to know how to make them safe is a flex. Particularly if we say we know that because we just made one.
Plus, leylines would probably be much safer if they're inside liminal realms where people can't mess with them.
Edit: Double plus, if leylines are or could be made from liminal realms like this, it explains why a greater daemon really might want to derail this path of research from someone already involved in the Waystone project, and hopefully get it shut down altogether. Being able to make new Waystones would be bad enough for them. Additional leylines would be make it much worse.
Even just using his words to distract Mathilde from making such a connection would be worth it if true. The knowledge that once you've made a breach into the liminal boundary sufficiently concentrated Winds turn into more reality there, expanding the realm should have obvious potential combined with the concentrations of Winds flowing through a Waystone. Quite possibly even worth revealing the Everchosen info to do so.
We've just seen how incredibly badly wrong creating a liminal realm can go. Investing the time to do some prep work and gather information is very much not wasted time. Excessive impatience really doesn't help us.
And they aren't just prep actions, they're potentially very valuable in their own right. Sitting a Grey Lord down and saying that we know liminal realms have weaker boundaries with the warp than regular reality, before we invest time in using them for Waystone research we need to know how to make them safe is a flex. Particularly if we say we know that because we just made one.
Plus, leylines would probably be much safer if they're inside liminal realms where people can't mess with them.
Edit: Double plus, if leylines are or could be made from liminal realms like this, it explains why a greater daemon really might want to derail this path of research from someone already involved in the Waystone project, and hopefully get it shut down altogether. Being able to make new Waystones would be bad enough for them. Additional leylines would be make it much worse.
Even just using his words to distract Mathilde from making such a connection would be worth it if true. The knowledge that once you've made a breach into the liminal boundary sufficiently concentrated Winds turn into more reality there, expanding the realm should have obvious potential combined with the concentrations of Winds flowing through a Waystone. Quite possibly even worth revealing the Everchosen info to do so.
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- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Honestly, should we even tell the GC about AV once we're done?
Like, not forever obviously. But with how suspicious they're inevitably going to be and the utter loss of trust, maybe we should keep this as an ace up our sleeve for if they think we're consortng with chaos instead of the far more accurate crime of our Necromancy stuff.
In that worst case scenario, we'll possibly end up being a renegade (?) Magister, and in that situation, we're going to want to continue learning what we can to try and do what little good we can do. It'd suck, but I'd rather betray the colleges and go off into the New world or something than have that worst case scenario end the quest. And AV, or what we can keep of it, would give us an edge that very few individuals could match.
Like, not forever obviously. But with how suspicious they're inevitably going to be and the utter loss of trust, maybe we should keep this as an ace up our sleeve for if they think we're consortng with chaos instead of the far more accurate crime of our Necromancy stuff.
In that worst case scenario, we'll possibly end up being a renegade (?) Magister, and in that situation, we're going to want to continue learning what we can to try and do what little good we can do. It'd suck, but I'd rather betray the colleges and go off into the New world or something than have that worst case scenario end the quest. And AV, or what we can keep of it, would give us an edge that very few individuals could match.
Not to the a downer, but should we really be planning future action before we see the college reaction. I mean take the case where Algard says that the Colleges want nothing to do with AV, we would not get any college favor for publishing it so that would be a waste of actions. Or less catastrophically we might have Algard insist that he teach us (or try to at least) everything he knows about Liminal realms before we attempt to mess with it again.
Or even looking to the future we might roll another 1 on rituals forcing us to spent AP on damage control for that next turn, we are barely half way into this turn and a lot of the AP calculations are already shaky, how much more so will that be the vase by the end of the turn.
Or even looking to the future we might roll another 1 on rituals forcing us to spent AP on damage control for that next turn, we are barely half way into this turn and a lot of the AP calculations are already shaky, how much more so will that be the vase by the end of the turn.
- Location
- Brazil
Honestly, I'm pretty sold on the idea of doing another action on warding liminal realms, because yeah, that actually is tied to the Waystone project. The Dreaming Woods are a liminal realm. That's completely legit, and a ridiculously good way to get more info on this very, very hard topic, because we have some of the best experts in the world already commited to it.
Could open the option of, say, building some key connections between too-far tributaries. Probably expensive, but when we are like three tumbled obelisks away from the Old World being completely fucked, "expensive" isn't a concern.
Of course, this depends on the amount of self-inflicted punishment we are about to take from this latest vote.
Could open the option of, say, building some key connections between too-far tributaries. Probably expensive, but when we are like three tumbled obelisks away from the Old World being completely fucked, "expensive" isn't a concern.
Of course, this depends on the amount of self-inflicted punishment we are about to take from this latest vote.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
True, but we don't know the mechanism those actually do operate on. Nor do we know if they attract daemons (or did, if we assume that it's like a flare and the daemons have just gotten used to teh towers popping up every now and again).
How do we know that though? Like, sure, it could just be a coincidence (or divination) but I don't think we've seen anything that rules out that the creation of a liminal realm attracts daemons either.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
At this point, I don't really give a damn anymore.
Whatever happens, People are going to moan, or go 'See! I was right!'.
Worst case scenario for the thread is probably a middling result, which leads to enough of a hit for it to hurt, in which case people say "See! we could have avoided this incovenience by hiding it", whilst those who voted for it go "See, it wasn't nearly as terrible as was stated".
the Greater Daemon was right in that regard.
Whatever happens, People are going to moan, or go 'See! I was right!'.
Worst case scenario for the thread is probably a middling result, which leads to enough of a hit for it to hurt, in which case people say "See! we could have avoided this incovenience by hiding it", whilst those who voted for it go "See, it wasn't nearly as terrible as was stated".
the Greater Daemon was right in that regard.
I know that because that's how I've been interpreting Boney's statements on the matter:
Compressing AV always creates a Liminal Realm. Mathilde wasn't paying attention, and didn't realise she was breaching reality, until it was too late, and then a passing bird stuck its head in through the window and said "nice hat".
That gives no information about what the thresholds or spectrum of other possible results are.
For all we know, without taking special precautions a daemon of some kind might show up 90% of the time, or 50% of the time, or 10% of the time.
Now, we had the worst kind of daemon possible show up, because we had the worst result, but we don't know if a less bad roll would usually have resulted in a less bad daemon, rather than no daemon at all.
This is why asking people who may know what the answer to that question is before trying again is sensible, as is asking if it's possible to make or transform liminal realms in a way that makes it harder for daemons to trespass into them in the first place.
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if the greater daemon could see the thread it be overjoyed
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Best case scenario right now is that we (along Mathilde) are catastrophizing to some extent. There's legitimate concerns to have, but...
Remember, from the moment Boney posted that he rolled a nat 1, up until he posted the birb update, we were losing our shit over all the place. I recall that people were wondering whether we'd end up exploding, losing the lab, dying, whether we'd directly summon something we'd need to fight, whether multiple demons would show up, or that we'd lose our AV permanently somehow, or we'd create a shitload of Warpstone, or the Dhar equivalent of an Orb of Sorcery, or getting sucked into the Warp, or establishing a permanent rift into the Warp, or...
Honestly, we went really wild for while bit there. And arguably, the result was both better and worse than most of us expected. Yes, we have been inflicted a shitton of paranoia in a way we cannot dismiss and gained a mystery skill, but overall we are still physically fine, unexploded, still with AV, still with the choice of how to handle this, and reality will heal itself from this scrunched-up liminal realm. It's possible that whatever trust we lose from the Colleges or Belegar may be less than we fear, precisely because we are in a state conducive to being afraid.
Remember, from the moment Boney posted that he rolled a nat 1, up until he posted the birb update, we were losing our shit over all the place. I recall that people were wondering whether we'd end up exploding, losing the lab, dying, whether we'd directly summon something we'd need to fight, whether multiple demons would show up, or that we'd lose our AV permanently somehow, or we'd create a shitload of Warpstone, or the Dhar equivalent of an Orb of Sorcery, or getting sucked into the Warp, or establishing a permanent rift into the Warp, or...
Honestly, we went really wild for while bit there. And arguably, the result was both better and worse than most of us expected. Yes, we have been inflicted a shitton of paranoia in a way we cannot dismiss and gained a mystery skill, but overall we are still physically fine, unexploded, still with AV, still with the choice of how to handle this, and reality will heal itself from this scrunched-up liminal realm. It's possible that whatever trust we lose from the Colleges or Belegar may be less than we fear, precisely because we are in a state conducive to being afraid.
for me there is the IC vs OC argument about 'Spending AP'
OC: there is an argument that going to full length down the AV tech-tree is not 'efficient' use of AP to make numbers go up or collect shines.
IC: Why the fuck would a Magic Researcher not finish a project that is basically shitting out topics that are the apex of her people's current magic study just because you can't bash an orc's skull in with liminal realm.
I cant, from an IC perspective, see a Magic user prioritize the Sword style or even apparitions over AV (waystones, yes.) now that we know that two of the college's holy grails (Orbs and Liminal realms) are at the end of it.
they are arguably the biggest paradigm shift since Theodor Habermas figured out powerstones.
OC: there is an argument that going to full length down the AV tech-tree is not 'efficient' use of AP to make numbers go up or collect shines.
IC: Why the fuck would a Magic Researcher not finish a project that is basically shitting out topics that are the apex of her people's current magic study just because you can't bash an orc's skull in with liminal realm.
I cant, from an IC perspective, see a Magic user prioritize the Sword style or even apparitions over AV (waystones, yes.) now that we know that two of the college's holy grails (Orbs and Liminal realms) are at the end of it.
they are arguably the biggest paradigm shift since Theodor Habermas figured out powerstones.
Demonic manifestations are a risk with any form of spellcasting, but I do not believe there's a specific correlation between "creating a liminal realm" and "having an unwanted visitor".
Boney said the dice roll was to see how well we did at "getting to the point of creating" a liminal realm, and the result was "poorly". It did not affect the quality or nature of the realm at all. The roll of a 1 or a 100 would have resulted in the exact same liminal realm, and as such we can assume that it was not the realm that attracted the demon, but some other, external factor—most likely, Mathilde's wandering attention span and the preexisting interest the Four have developed in her.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
None of that really contradicts the idea that creating a liminal realm sends a message to aethyrically nearby daemons that reality is being weakened. Like, sure, AV creates liminal realms when used in that manner. But I would argue that seeing as daemons are very very interested in getting into reality, they pay attention to when the barirer between them and reality is weakened. This doesn't mean that a daemon would 100% popup everytime a liminal realm is created, but it would mean that the creation of such a realm draws daemons in as they seek to exploit the weakening of the barrier. As a corollary to this, I also think that there is someway of either preventing this creation weakening the barrier, or to hide the weakening, which is why daemons don't constantly attack the Dreaming Wood of Laurelorn or the GC.
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Haven't voted so not much stake in the vote for me but if the college reaction to us telling them we met a greater demon tzentch is to try and censor our research I say go fuck them and publish them anyway, it matters little to me if were put under a little more shade as we have a perfect track record till now and I wouldn't mind having an adverserial relationship with some of the grey leadership because fuck them if this is how they respond to us miscasting and causing a usual fuck up of magic being summon demons.
Now if they try to fucking kill us just try and get away I guess. Maybe seek a caravan to Cathay or ship the the new world. Slightly more interested in Cathay since their's civilization their and I hear from lore the dragons their are always hiring mercenery mages like i believe one of the cokoo dragons favouring gold alchemist wind mages or whatever. would be preety cool to see al their wierd magic archetecture layout and way of life and culture and maybe founding our own magical circle group their or joining a magic order their I guess considering theirs mercenery mages their I think.
The new world is... hell, jungle hell and while slann and lizardmen are interesting... they are like alien in mentality, like dwarves x 10 and civilization their is meh.
Just run of to Belegar or the high king, request the finest bodyguards with runic equipment to escort us to the ships in Altdorf leaving for the old world or caravans heading to cathay or whatever other city their is and make it clear if we die via assassination's in the old world dwarf vs wizard bogaloo is happening and this time the grey college doesn't have the option to hide in their little liminal realm dimension because the drawves will hopefully rip it open with their runelords to avenge us but hopefully we don't get assassinated and hopefully they can protect us from grey order assassins till we leave the old world/influence of the grey college.
Of course that's the most extreme thing, if the grey order tries to censor our research then fuck them and try to find a wizard in our friend group to publish under their name because fuck the grey college if they try to censor our research for the first stain on our record for a common risk hazard a wizard might miscast and summon ??? demon.
It is hell and back to try and see the fruit of our research finally see an end and even harder to find the spare ap for it so I take research seriously and I won't have AV languish without any fanfare from the colleges because the grey college is trying to censor us because their a bunch of little prickly shits about our first stain on our perfect record and is a common risk in our profession as a wizard.
Now if they try to fucking kill us just try and get away I guess. Maybe seek a caravan to Cathay or ship the the new world. Slightly more interested in Cathay since their's civilization their and I hear from lore the dragons their are always hiring mercenery mages like i believe one of the cokoo dragons favouring gold alchemist wind mages or whatever. would be preety cool to see al their wierd magic archetecture layout and way of life and culture and maybe founding our own magical circle group their or joining a magic order their I guess considering theirs mercenery mages their I think.
The new world is... hell, jungle hell and while slann and lizardmen are interesting... they are like alien in mentality, like dwarves x 10 and civilization their is meh.
Just run of to Belegar or the high king, request the finest bodyguards with runic equipment to escort us to the ships in Altdorf leaving for the old world or caravans heading to cathay or whatever other city their is and make it clear if we die via assassination's in the old world dwarf vs wizard bogaloo is happening and this time the grey college doesn't have the option to hide in their little liminal realm dimension because the drawves will hopefully rip it open with their runelords to avenge us but hopefully we don't get assassinated and hopefully they can protect us from grey order assassins till we leave the old world/influence of the grey college.
Of course that's the most extreme thing, if the grey order tries to censor our research then fuck them and try to find a wizard in our friend group to publish under their name because fuck the grey college if they try to censor our research for the first stain on our record for a common risk hazard a wizard might miscast and summon ??? demon.
It is hell and back to try and see the fruit of our research finally see an end and even harder to find the spare ap for it so I take research seriously and I won't have AV languish without any fanfare from the colleges because the grey college is trying to censor us because their a bunch of little prickly shits about our first stain on our perfect record and is a common risk in our profession as a wizard.
Does creating a Liminal Realm weaken the border between reality and the warp? I was under the impression that this point was only weak because of the crude manner in which Mathilde destroyed it. In fact, if my reading of the update is correct, shouldn't a liminal realm normally strengthen the border between reality and the warp by creating an insulating bubble of fresh reality between the two?
- Location
- Earth
Because the world is dangerous, and Magical Researcher is only one of Mathilde's many hats and interests. Part of the balancing act is managing all of those different priorities, and I think the thread's had a pretty good track record in doing that. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the next turn plan included both AV and swording, assuming all goes well in the remainder of this one.
- Location
- Earth
Not really. I picture the veil as a thick wall, and creating an AV-style liminal realm as carving out a room inside it with a door on the reality side. So if something from the Aethyr tried to break in, they'd go through less wall before hitting empty space and a path to reality than if they'd had to go through the wall that was originally there.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Personally, I'm not really feeling the urge to figure out liminal realm security for the AV book. It doesn't interest me as much, because right now we don't seem to have any ideas for tangible use cases rather than just "it seems like it might be relevant". And it doesn't seem to me like there might be any surprises there that we want to figure out.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I mean, I was kind of unsure earlier, but Liminal Spaces literally let people do the thing where their wizard towers are bigger on the inside.
It's such a basic and potent trope of Proper Wizard Towers that I'm amazed nobody has brought it up before now.
There are discoveries that let us dunk on our enemies, and there are discoveries that let us print money, but the best kind of discoveries are the one every wizard will want as a matter of course.
For us it's just a flex, but it's a flex that'll put our name and the name of our technique on the tongue of most every wizard in the Empire, because it appeals to such a basic and straightforward wizardly desire.
And even if it's not half as actually useful as its other applications, that's the sort of thing which rakes in Favor like nothing else.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
And if we can make it portable we could potentially put whatever we want in the Gyro.I mean, I was kind of unsure earlier, but Liminal Spaces literally let people do the thing where their wizard towers are bigger on the inside.
It's such a basic and potent trope of Proper Wizard Towers that I'm amazed nobody has brought it up before now.
There are discoveries that let us dunk on our enemies, and there are discoveries that let us print money, but the best kind of discoveries are the one every wizard will want as a matter of course.
For us it's just a flex, but it's a flex that'll put our name and the name of our technique on the tongue of most every wizard in the Empire, because it appeals to such a basic and straightforward wizardly desire.
And even if it's not half as actually useful as its other applications, that's the sort of thing which rakes in Favor like nothing else.