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Some more thoughts and concerns.

The ??? effect from Fated may not be a static effect. I would not be surprised if it's intended as a means for the Plotter to snare their hooks ever deeper into Mathilde.

The Waystone project went conspicuously unmentioned, but even if that is out of ignorance rather than preference or verbal craftsmanship, any consistent attention will not leave it that way for long. I would not be surprised to see a Chaos Champion showing up at our/Laurelorn's doorstep soon as the next bracket in the EverBowl.

(On the bright side of the above, it does provide a very good motive for us to be in the sights of the Plotter should we tell anyone. Of course the Four would take an active interest any anyone actively working to upend the status quo of slow and crumbling decay.)


Honestly... between this, and the overarching fact that one of The Four is now actively trying to turn Mathilde against all she cares for, I'm becoming tempted to start reconciling with Sigmar. Though at this point my opinion on the nature of that is still very much, "This should at least be a set of actions or a mini-arc."

Because honestly, I would like for Mathilde to be convinced to side with the gods of the Empire in general and Sigmar specifically not by their strength, but by their limits. In a "They stood besides us as best they could, even when they were weak, so I will stand stand besides them until they can be strong again,"/"Chaos may be strong, but Our gods do not need strength; They have us," kind of way.

I'm pretty sure that the position of 'stand by Sigmar because of how weak he is' makes you some kind of heretic in the eyes of his cult, so yeah I'm all for it.

We should help Sigmarites and tell then that it's because their god is too pathetic to do anything without wizard help.:V
 
I think the real thing that makes this so contentious is that, putting aside if there even is a 'Right way' to deal with this, we have no idea what the best option really is.

Obviously Birb is trying to play on our paranoia, but to what extent and how much? Is it bluffing and trying to make us not act? Is it a double bluff and by using this information we end up causing ourselves to be mistrusted, which Birb then tries to play on by pushing the situation into one where he's the only way out? Is it both, and whatever happens depends on what we do?

The worst case scenarios here are incredibly unlikely, but it also feels hard to say they're completely impossible. We have a TON of dirty laundry which, if aired, would get us killed. Liber Mortis is absolutely a 'Fire, sword' immediately, and I recommend burning it purely to ensure that we don't get killed for it if the colleges did investigate just to be absolutely certain.

I think the uncertainty of just how much trouble this is going to cause is maddening, and we'll probably deal with it more when things calm down, but still. Great Villain, but damn this is why people hate having to deal with Tzeentch.
AV liminal realms probably aren't inherent beacons to daemons, but I'd really like to figure out how to secure them before writing the book on AV.
At this point, I kinda just want to get out any remaining bits of research ASAP, make the orbs, and say goodbye to AV for anything other than favours/trading. Let the people who aren't candidates for the antichrist mess around with reality juice.

We can no longer get in the coolest dunk in College history unnanounced, might as well just drop off the orbs and AV and let people who don't have the Changers eye on them mess around with it.

Goddamned birb, messing with our mysterious smugness.
 
This turned much better than I feared after seeing the nat 1 roll.
Mathilde is a powerful wizard, so some Tzeentchian bullshit like this was always going to happen. And the daemon did not really say anything that interesting anyway, most of the things it said the thread already suspected, Mathilde just didn't know about them in character.
We just need to continue doing what we were already doing and not panic over this. Maybe talk with Heidi to see if Ranald couldn't give us some advice.

Honestly, we are lucky that it didn't give us a solution to some crucial part of waystone project, that would probably cause lot more paranoia.
 
In my mind this is a moment where we need to accept the bird is going to win. He does that when he puts his mind to things. At the worst possible moment a dice roll is going to come out "A feathered hand turns the die, nat 1" and we are going to get screwed.

Right now we should focus on one thing - Damage control.

There is no option that isn't going to cost us time, effort, and trust. What we should be minimizing is the maximum possible cost because we know that the damned bird is going to weigh in on the dice so that the worst outcome occurs.

THEREFORE - Open honesty with reasonable information control is the best option. The bird knows and a secret that 2 people know can only be kept if there is at least 1 dead. We cannot be sure this information will remain secret. He's the god of betrayal. He will betray this secret to our allied at the worst time.

Therefore we cauterize the wound. We inform people NOW, voluntarily, at a time of our choosing, rather than letting them discover this at the worst moment. This takes from the Bird the move of being able to tell people later. Yeah, it sucks. We are likely going to lose some College and Dwarf favor over this snaffu. It sucks.

But it means we close off a couple of avenues for backstabbing, and that's vital.

Tzeentch is the god of betrayal. He wants us, above all else, to betray the trust of our friends and allies. If we want to spite him what we need to do is trust our allies and not betray them in turn.
 
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In my mind this is a moment where we need to accept the bird is going to win.

*sigh, back to the vague hand-waving of hyper competent Tzeench I see* How would Tzeench be able to prove we lied?

Hey remember the 12 previous Everchosen who were all murdered in spite of each and every one of them being foretold by Tzeench to end the world. You would think 0 for 12 would be a bad record for foretelling the end of the world. :V
 
*sigh, back to the vague hand-waving of hyper competent Tzeench I see* How would Tzeench be able to prove we lied?

Hey remember the 12 previous Everchosen who were all murdered in spite of each and every one of them being foretold by Tzeench to end the world. You would think 0 for 12 would be a bad record for foretelling the end of the world. :V

You should really read other peoples comments before making snide posts mocking them for things they didn't actually say.
 
*sigh, back to the vague hand-waving of hyper competent Tzeench I see* How would Tzeench be able to prove we lied?

Hey remember the 12 previous Everchosen who were all murdered in spite of each and every one of them being foretold by Tzeench to end the world. You would think 0 for 12 would be a bad record for foretelling the end of the world. :V
This is Tzeench. He fucks with dice rolls. He absolutely will be hypercompetent for brief moments when it matters (and hyper incompetent self betraying to balance it out) because that is explicitly his thing. He is going to act, at some point, with the full might of future knowledge and prophecy and where he knows he's effectively going to roll a nat 100 because his feathered hand is on the die.
 
In my mind this is a moment where we need to accept the bird is going to win. He does that when he puts his mind to things. At the worst possible moment a dice roll is going to come out "A feathered hand turns the die, nat 1" and we are going to get screwed.

Right now we should focus on one thing - Damage control.

There is no option that isn't going to cost us time, effort, and trust. What we should be minimizing is the maximum possible cost because we know that the damned bird is going to weigh in on the dice so that the worst outcome occurs.

THEREFORE - Open honesty with reasonable information control is the best option. The bird knows and a secret that 2 people know can only be kept if there is at least 1 dead. We cannot be sure this information will remain secret. He's the god of betrayal. He will betray this secret to our allied at the worst time.

Therefore we cauterize the wound. We inform people NOW, voluntarily, at a time of our choosing, rather than letting them discover this at the worst moment. This takes from the Bird the move of being able to tell people later. Yeah, it sucks. We are likely going to lose some College and Dwarf favor over this snaffu. It sucks.

But it means we close off a couple of avenues for backstabbing, and that's vital.
Pretty much this, I think, with the caveat of burning all of our dirty laundry so that it unexpectedly turning up (by birb plot or by the colleges investigating us) doesn't get us put into a permanent house arrest in the best case scenario.

Whilst T might not know, I think it's best to believe that he does and is simply refraining from telling to lower our guard - Waystone project has a ton of other people working on it, and him interfering is more likely to increase security and scrutiny to make sure it's harder for him to fuck up, since the core of the project isn't inherently Dark Magic. The Necromancy stuff on the other hand, if he does know and manipulates events to ensure it comes to light, is something that's a LOT worse for Mathilde personally.
 
We should tell Belegar and Kragg about the wrinkle in reality in our lab. Not because we think it's an issue - apparently it's gummed up pretty good - but just in case Kragg has some runic precaution he'd like to take.

We should tell the Grey Colleges that we've been contacted by a daemon claiming to be one of Tzeentch's eyes, and volunteer no further information unless specifically asked about it by whoever's giving us a quasi-medical checkup afterwards. Everchosenbowl is plausibly important, but IC we have absolutely no confirmation of it beyond a daemon's words. It's fundamentally not trustworthy.

No one in the thread is even slightly tempted by the daemon's "offer", and given that Mathilde's thoughts tend to reflect the thread's, I'm not worried about it.

The new trait is spooky, but it seems like it's a reflection of Tzeentch telling magic to stop giving us such a hard time, rather than a mutation of Mathilde's soul or the like, so I suspect an in-depth examination of our soul will turn up nothing; we should do one regardless.

AV liminal realms probably aren't inherent beacons to daemons, but I'd really like to figure out how to secure them before writing the book on AV. Also, to see if we can possibly make them mobile, attaching them to something more mobile than a tower wall. Whilst I can't think of much else we'd directly use them for except a Bag Of Holding, I suspect this is a failure of imagination on my part.

At the very least, a way to create and study liminal realms in their own right seems really really cool, and I sort of regret it's been overshadowed by Birdbrains, but them's the dice.

Also, if we weren't already writing a book to encompass all of AV, this alone would be a Shattering paper:
I agree with this post 100%. It pretty much sums up what I think we should ultimately take away from this. If I could [X] vote for this post, I would.
 
I don't think the dwarven approach to being told about the rift would be some odd runic contraption. I think they'd just fill in the entire area with stone instead.
 
Turn 40 Results - 2489.5 - Part 3 - The Architecture of Fate
Well, this alone pretty much confirms Tzeenchian shenanigans. Personally, despite apprehension, I look forward to it.
There is, you discover through trial and error, a minimum amount of Vitae required for you to be able to get an adequate 'grip' on the liquid so you can attempt to squeeze it into a power stone. You end up settling on a third of a gallon as a minimum size to achieve adequate control, and after you've grown familiar with the metaphysical weight of the liquid as you enforce your will upon it, you lift it with a gesture into the air, holding it in as perfectly spherical a shape as you can.
Translation: There's a minimum amount of boomstuff to blow up in our face. No screwing up with just a drop.
Every distortion from that perfectly round shape signifies an unevenness in the willpower pressing in on the ball from each side, and having such plainly visible feedback makes it easier to refine your control than your experiments with power stones. You settle in, take a breath, and begin to squeeze.
This "visible feedback", given our ominous roll, seems to scream "this is nothing like powerstone creation" to me.
[Squeezing Vitae: Learning, 1+29=30.]
And there it is. Let's see how long we have till the boom.
But after your attention begins to waver and you turn some of your attention away from the ball of shimmering fluid you drag in your wake so you can see to biological necessities,
Does... Mathilde take the suspended sphere of AV with her to the toilet? Please tell me that there's a toilet located directly within the Room of Calamity and that the nat 1 doesn't result in Mathy Dhar-ing her apartment within vicinity of the wrong flushing mechanism.
Reassured, you continue your vigil over the fluid and keep pushing in on what only seems to be unable to be pushed any further. With carefully-honed patience you maintain and very gradually increase the even pressure that keeps the shimmering sphere suspended in the air.
Phew, I guess not.
Uh oh. Here we go.
But your will still grasps it from every dimension, doesn't it?
No... It doesn't...
In the place of the shimmering ball of Vitae is a hole orthogonal to real and about the size of your hand,
Well, fuck. Warp portal it is. At least it's small. At the moment...
You've seen that shade once before - in the Grey College, in the room without walls that reveals its existence within a liminal realm. Either you've uncovered a very small liminal realm - about two cubic meters, by your estimation - that just so happened to be where you performed this experiment, or your experiment has created it.
Wait, what? Usually I interpret low rolls as the MC screwing up, but this, in a way, is a success. Even if this liminal space rips open into lots and lots of daemons, it seems to me like she still got the only physically possible result and didn't screw up. Except, I guess, if pushing AV into the liminal space is trivial for someone with Mathilde's skills and she didn't do/notice her own massive blunder yet.
So what does that indicate? That when forced into the barrier between reality and unreality, Vitae undergoes a transformation into... what, into nothing? No, into empty space where previously there was none. There's nothing there, but there is a there there to contain that nothing, where previously it was not. How? Well, Vitae was the substance of the realm of Aethyr, so transplanted to where there was no realm, it creates some more. But what you're looking it is certainly no Aethyr in miniature, is it? Well, no, you don't know the ground state of the Aethyr, you only know it as it is with the many Gods in residence. It could be that without them, the Aethyr would just be emptiness? But isn't the Aethyr inherently psychoreactive? This little pocket you've created doesn't appear to be. So it's not mimicking the Aethyr, it's instead mimicking reality? Could it have been imbued with... reality-ness from its time as Vitae? Or was this tiny, nascent realm of Chaos overwhelmed by the weight of a much larger reality through the pinhole that the Vitae had escaped through?

No. You've tested Vitae in every way imaginable and know that it is unreactive, its nature unchanged from the moment it bled through into reality. This effect must rely on the inherent properties of the Winds it created. But that would mean that when Winds are presented with a blank slate and transform into a realm to fill it, they birth normality. But that makes no sense - the Winds are the energies of Chaos, aren't they? Well, no, not quite, that's why they're legal when Chaos Sorcery very much isn't. The Winds all represent facets of the real - life and death, light and shadow, passion and instinct, solidity and ephemerality. Mainstream theory is that this is the energies of Chaos having the nature of reality imprinted upon it when too far from the attention of the beings that command it.

And there is no weight of reality here. Your lab is magically isolated from the outside world, and the Aethyr was forced into a space between realms before it transformed. Placed equidistant between real and unreal and isolated from the pressure of existence to impose a decision upon it, Aethyr still became Winds and the Winds still retained the nature of reality.

Which means that the Winds can't be born of the mere inertia of what already is. Reality is being imposed upon Chaos by something other than reality.
This is some truly beautiful hypothesizing. But it is only hypothesizing. Sure, Mathilde has theoretical knowledge that none of us players do, but I still feel like she's jumping to conclusions. Like the idea that magically isolating a lab from the outside world also isolates it from "reality" might be wrong. Maybe reality is exactly what's left when you filter out every other interference found on Malus. Dwarves living under mountains doesn't isolate them from the laws of physics after all. And if this room didn't have plenty of reality in it then Mathilde's soul and Ulgu-essence would expand to fill the vacuum. Or at least that's what my counter-hypothesizing says.

Still, pushing real space into the liminal membrane seems too easy.

Second shoe...!
"Do you know what tickles me most about all of this?"
Aww crap. It's already close enough to just talk?! Well, at least it's going to be fun from a reader's perspective.
The thought arrives in your brain packaged and labelled as sound, but never existed as something so ludicrously inefficient as vibrating air. The past was simply changed so that the words had been heard.
I don't know if it is better or worse that the Daemon has access to our thinkspace instead of standing right behind us.
At the far side of the bubble of new space from the opening into reality, tendrils of magic wriggle through the thinned membrane that separates reality from unreality like maggots through dead flesh, and once they wriggle their way free they dissipate into will made manifest.
"Far side" being, like, less than 10 cm away, right? What with the bubble itself being fist sized. Or is it just the door into the new liminal space that's that small?

Edit: My mistake. The liminal space is 2 cubic meters. So the Warp is more than 1.2 meters away. What a relief :V

"It's that every word I say will further excavate a warren of bad decisions that you will have to scurry your way through. Do you tell your little friends that you have thinned the one border of their reclaimed home that they cannot guard themselves? Do you tell them that you have been singled out for special attention by one of the Eyes of Tzeentch, the very one that once ensnared their brothers in the far north and began the twilight of their race?"
Did I ever tell you guys that I am a huge fan of well written Tzeentch-talk? So much to unpack. Even if it might all be filled with lies and half-truths.

Here we've got a threat combined with a guilt-trip, plus some deep lore of questionable veracity. No idea which specific event it is referring to though. So much stuff happened that doomed the Dwarves. And I don't think the Chorf creation was the worst of it. Nor am I sure that that's far enough north to be meant by "far north".

Also, "Eye of Tzeentch" doesn't seem to be a specific type of Daemon, according to a quick Googling. It's literally the symbol itself. So the moniker might be either literal and a never seen before entity or it might be a metaphorical title. If it's the latter it sure sounds impressive, until one remembers that all Tzeentch Daemons that can sense anything at all are Eyes for the whole of Tzeentch.
It took only heartbeats for you to activate the Rune that flushes the magic out of the air, but entire sentences had already manifested themselves.
Yep. The monologue was sent pre-written into Mathy's brain. Then again, did the flush even close the portal and destroy the vestibule to the Chaos realm?
"What about your little magic club? They've already fretted about this very possibility, haven't they? Can they distinguish between a few whispered words and a full ensnaring of a soul? Could they dare to take such a chance that one such as you might already be suborned when you have the trust and ear of so many?
Yep. Directly making us fear any more Daemon-checking. This is especially effective if the Daemon actually knows that a single monologue-injection wouldn't actually trigger it, while we can never be sure.
You already know what their response would be, because you've already delivered it unto another. The blood on your hands matches that on the crown on your friend's head."
We did? I can't remember killing someone who was involuntarily or partially possessed/tainted. The closest I can think of is Alberich, but he was an open disciple. Also how does this in any way relate to the ascend of Belegar, Heidi or Roswita (our only "crowned" friends I can think of).
How do you ignore words you never heard in a present tense? You do your best to focus on the whisking away of magical energies, and note that none are escaping the slit in reality you have created. Of course not. Magic bleed-off is the result of inefficiency in spellcasting, and this being is beyond such limitations.
So the hole is not closing. Crap.
"Do you know how much effort it normally takes to craft a platter of truth and lies that will so haunt a mortal that they will spend the rest of their days trying their best to decorticate it?
De-cor-ti-cate. Looks like I'm learning a new word today.

1. to remove the bark, husk, or outer covering from
2. (Surgery) to remove the cortex from (an organ or structure)

Beautiful.
But you and yours who have so wonderfully usurped the Sword of Tlanxla have so twisted your own minds that I could say anything or nothing and you will dwell obligingly on it forever.
It's using lore it knows we've heard of. Which in equal measure gives said lore weight and draws it though the mud of deception.
If I said 'I like your hat' - and I really, really do - you will wonder, is this an example of the pettiest of statements for you to nevertheless obsess over, to demonstrate that I can command your mind through only your ears?
Hey! Low blow.
Am I masking truth in lies, or lies in truth? Would it only be a truth if you decide it a lie, or only a lie if you decide it a truth? Or is eternal indecision that which I seek?"
Meh. Now the Daemon's just stating the obvious and self-congratulating. This makes me think that the Daemon in question is much lesser than it presents itself and downright amateurish in it's presentation. Maybe it's giddy to show off for the first time. Or, since we are dealing with Tzeentch here, that's what it wants us to think. Seem like a dumb minor nuisance that got it's moment in the spotlight and is best to be ignored while we focus on the right in front of us problem that is the open warp portal, only for something hidden in its memory package to majorly screw us when we least expect it.

Isn't dealing with Tzeentch fun?
"The importance placed upon such pleasure, upon who has delivered them, grows by the hour.
No idea what this means. Closest I can think of is that the Daemon is admitting on getting off on this.
The First Betrayer sobs his fury for all to hear, knowing that the time will soon come again when he will crown one that might achieve what he could not and will never. Already the Four tally their joys and prod their servants, willing and not, knowing and not, into greater efforts. And do you know the most delightful part? That of all the promises and threats that have been whispered into the ears of the greatest and most terrible of champions, none have removed so many of their competitors from the greatest of tournaments than you."
Ooh. IC confirmation of the Evertourney. And of the fact that we killed at least two contestants.

...Or it would be if IC Mathilde could trust anything at all that's coming from Tzeentch's mouths.
"You have heard for yourself how exquisitely cultivated the resentment within Egrimm is, and seen how convincingly soothed his ruffled feathers now appear.
Hey! This creature has access to our thread! Shoo, bird! Shoo!
You have tasted the millennia of curdled hate of the Briarmaven of Woe, and struck her down when she left her beloved shadows to finally act. You have known how blind Alric is to the unsuitability that all else know and sneer at, and you have thwarted his ambitions and eliminated his last chance to claw his way back into relevancy. You have felt your blade sing as it sliced through the Elector Count that demanded respect for a title when he had no part in the killings that brought it to him, and the knowledge that the one that thwarted him is also the one that has propped up two generations of the dynasty that usurped him will burn within him until the burning is all that remains of him."
So... this birb is directly implying that both Egrimm and Alric were Everchosen candidates, just by lining them up in this list. Spicy!
"And even now, my siblings bicker over whether you should be given credit that the brood that contained three generations of exquisite warlords that were so cleverly walked onto the precipice of apostasy, are now so utterly defeated that they will shriek and bite at any hand that reaches out for them, instead of allowing themselves to be properly usurped like their allies were."
What? I guess I'll have to see what others make of this in the comments.
You reach forward with your soul and bury talons of willpower into the newly-created fabric of reality.

Tendrils of the purest magic burrowing through reality seep into your now magic-starved soul and your grip on reality redoubles and redoubles again.
...What are you doing Mathilde? This isn't a spell you have experience with. This seems like it would lead to another roll. Let's hope it's a good one.
"Should you earn this world through right of conquest, your will here would be paramount. Not because you would be stronger than the Four, but because They want to see what you would do with it. They have worlds without counting where Their will becomes fact, and They have wrung every morsel of enjoyment out of such simple games. If you would take up the crown and with it make yourself the ultimate bulwark against Them, They would whisper and cajole and threaten and offer you every temptation to turn upon your wards, but every 'no' would be a rapturous novelty. All you'd need do to keep this world from their grasp is to stay true to your purpose. And is that not the founding purpose of your order? To be the 'no' in the darkness?"
Oh fun! Here's the recruitment pitch. And it says "just continue as you were pretty please. That would be perfect." Well, I vote that we take that deal.
You don't even know where to begin rejecting the strength that even the slightest wisp of the energies of the Changer of Ways has given you, and even if you could, it would render you unable to do that which needs to be done.
Oh Mathilde. Oh no. *hugs*

I guess that explains how she's manifesting novel magicks without the need to roll on it. The Daemon is literally helping her cast it.
"Why do you think you were able to pull back so many of the generations born in Chaos from the Desolation Hold? Because the sweetest of victories was not those bludgeoned into submission and dragged off in chains, but those that would forge the chains themselves. A single sentry that walked into the darkness themselves and let the Maidens of Ecstacy have them delights the Four more than ten thousand who fight and bite and scratch and need their souls flayed down to the gristle before they obey."
Other than the obvious about why Vlag survived, I find his implication that all Four enjoy it when one of them gets toys very interesting. Though this might be a Tzeentchian perspective. After all Tzeentch is the most likely to claim (maybe even without lying) that the other three are actually also extensions of itself. That true Tzeentch is Chaos Incarnate, split into Four for entertainment.
"When you can be sure of nothing else, be sure of the boredom of the Four. When they want puppets, they have as many of the likes of me as they could ever want. What they don't have is you. Should you be willing to change that, you could command any price. Every price."
That's a lie. And again an amateurish one. The only way that Mathilde is special enough to be able to demand a higher price than all who came before her would be if the Four are aware that she is the protagonist of a Quest, and thus both the most important character in this iteration of the world they like to play in and the only one with a semblance of free will. But that is too meta, even for Tzeentch IMO.
So instead it again seems like an overeager lesser Tzeentchling reading off the basic script and fumbling instead of threading the needle towards a realistic temptation.
"You cannot prevent the emergence of a Thirteenth, just as you cannot prevent the existence of Ulgu. All you can do is decide whether such a weapon should be surrendered without a fight to the whims of the vilest."
So "be the Everchosen or someone worse/more typical will instead". Okay. I can't say I'm not intrigued.


I mean who knows, maybe it is finally time for some fundamental Change.
 
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But the only thing is can do is damage, in other words 'the only winning move is not to play', something both Mathilde's IC characters and we the players as people used to move forward and influence the world are disinclined to do which makes it such a great temptation

*sigh, back to the vague hand-waving of hyper competent Tzeench I see* How would Tzeench be able to prove we lied?

My response is that when we choose not to play with nuclear bombs we still gotta tell our boss that nukes were even on the table.

Yeah that's a tortured metaphor but you're the one who brought up War Games.

Burying this is liable to lead to catastrophic damage down the line, and if there's any faction that can finagle an asspull to reveal it at the worst possible time, it's the Tzeentchians. It doesn't have to be rational, it doesn't have to be in a court of law or long lasting, but even without evidence and only a demon's word this can bite us.

It could be after some of our other secrets get out, as the final straw that damns us the to pyre. It could be dramatic reveal in the middle of a battle that'll turn our allies against us. It could be [whateverthefuck].

Relying on evidence and reason to stop the God Of Dirty Laundry and Contrived Schemes from revealing this radioactive SS uniform it planted next to our bloody vampire costume and nuclear bomb schematics and whatnot seems just tragically blind to what kind of setting we are in. Might as well take the L now and do damage control instead of sitting on this bomb and hoping it never goes off.
I think the real thing that makes this so contentious is that, putting aside if there even is a 'Right way' to deal with this, we have no idea what the best option really is.

Obviously Birb is trying to play on our paranoia, but to what extent and how much? Is it bluffing and trying to make us not act? Is it a double bluff and by using this information we end up causing ourselves to be mistrusted, which Birb then tries to play on by pushing the situation into one where he's the only way out? Is it both, and whatever happens depends on what we do?

The worst case scenarios here are incredibly unlikely, but it also feels hard to say they're completely impossible. We have a TON of dirty laundry which, if aired, would get us killed. Liber Mortis is absolutely a 'Fire, sword' immediately, and I recommend burning it purely to ensure that we don't get killed for it if the colleges did investigate just to be absolutely certain.

I think the uncertainty of just how much trouble this is going to cause is maddening, and we'll probably deal with it more when things calm down, but still. Great Villain, but damn this is why people hate having to deal with Tzeentch

I'm gonna preface this by saying Boney is significantly smarter than me, and Tzeentchians aren't gonna have a plan, but the most immediate and destructive effect this could have on us IMO would be scaring us into acting in a compromising, self destructive manner. Either by immediate suicide, telling the GC we're compromised (less immediate suicide), or burying this and hoping it'll never come back to bite us in the ass (much less immediate suicide).
 
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Also, "Eye of Tzeentch" doesn't seem to be a specific type of Daemon, according to a quick Googling. It's literally the symbol itself. So the moniker might be either literal and a never seen before entity or it might be a metaphorical title. If it's the latter it sure sounds impressive, until one remembers that all Tzeentch Daemons that can sense anything at all are Eyes for the whole of Tzeentch.
"Eyes of Tzeentch" is another name for the Lords of Change, Greater Daemons of Tzeentch.
 
This is Tzeench. He fucks with dice rolls. He absolutely will be hypercompetent for brief moments when it matters (and hyper incompetent self betraying to balance it out) because that is explicitly his thing. He is going to act, at some point, with the full might of future knowledge and prophecy and where he knows he's effectively going to roll a nat 100 because his feathered hand is on the die.

No, he does not fuck with the dice rolls, we know that because we the players see the dice rolls. Just like us rolling double sixes back in the K8P campaign was not actually Ranald this 1 was not actually Tzeench, it was a random number generator. I think we should take a step back and not start getting superstitious about a fictional demon-god.
 
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'Talking to other people and not keeping things entirely to yourself' is more than just a 'Well, what utility can we get out of sharing this information?' thing. It can also be "getting reassurance and centering yourself after having a creepy fucking encounter with an Daemon playing mind-games" thing. Though "reassurance" isn't exactly the only thing or the exact right word, more like... Look, you build up -- and use -- a support network for Spooky Shit and you use it, okay? This goes both ways though; it can also be a way of extending trust to other people too, and having them extend trust to you too.

'Avoiding having something hanging over your head' can mean psychological assurance, but it can also mean that "If several years down the line I find that I do need to have a conversation about Tzeentchian plots, I can start with a basis rather than having to dump everything all at once."

You could call that "roleplaying" or "fluff" and thus "not something that interests you" but, uh, I don't think that's a fair portrayal. Sometimes things in quests affect you or rattle you, and dealing with that or reacting to that is not some waste of time or mental focus. When Abelhelm died, we wound up getting a talk from a Dwarf which helped. We gained cynicism and disdain for Sigmar. It ended up influencing us and affecting us. When Barbitus was having trouble in the Chaos Wastes, presumably one of the things he would have been doing to cope and recover, might have been 'socializing with his peers.' For that matter, when that one scout got bitten by his own childhood home out in the wastes, he probably shared that story around a campfire and strong alcohol and concluded with "Fucking Chaos Wastes amirite guys?"

We do know we're dealing with a precognitive enemy, so it could easily be trying to mess with second order effects. What it actually wants could be for us to say something to someone else and for that to change their behaviour at some key juncture in the future that advances their plan.

The something we say could be relatively innocuous, just the wrong word at the wrong time.

Or it could be even more subtle, that the time they're meeting with us to talk about this means another meeting that would have been important doesn't happen or is delayed.

I referrred to For Want of a Nail earlier. The only way to avoid that scenario is to do literally nothing differently than if the daemon had never appeared and the creation of the liminal realm and it's subsequent sealing all went well.

That means telling no one anything ever about the daemon, and taking no action based on its words. It's basically a limited form of quarantine. We have to quarantine the information.
... Changing tracks for a bit, the idea of "Well, you might say something wrong to somebody and for-want-of-a-nail things, so you shouldn't say anything at all, because we're dealing with a precognitive jerk" kind of opens up a rabbit hole of possibilities because if you're running on "the butterfly and nail can do anything" logic then you also have to acknowledge the possibility that "attempt to do nothing" would also be butterfly affected too. Also also, you kind of can't "act as if unaffected" because if nothing else you were spooked as heck by this event and that affected you, and you decided to not do or say anything about it, which means you are affected by that decision of your's to keep things private too.

I mean, people have made posts of both "Guys Tzeentch isn't omniscient, you don't need to worry about doing or not doing a thing, all ultimately playing into his plans" and "We can screw ourselves over by actions"/"We can screw ourselves over by inaction."

I think it's fine to have one approach, or reaction, towards this situation be "Well this was fucking unsettling. Let's talk to a few people for both security reasons and also unloading-spooky-story-shit-to-destress reasons."

We don't need to second-guess our trustworthiness or lack thereof. Nor do we need to panic overmuch about "If we tell people this happened, they might lose some trust in us, which would be bad."
 
My response is that when we choose not to play with nuclear bombs we still gotta tell our boss because thay means nukes were on the table.

Yeah that's a tortured metaphor but you're the one who brought up War Games.

Burying this is liable to lead to catastrophic damage down the line, and if there's any faction that can finagle an asspull to reveal it at the worst possible time, it's the Tzeentchians. It doesn't have to be rational, it doesn't have to be in a court of law or long lasting, but even without evidence and only a demon's word this can bite us.

It could be after some of our other secrets get out, as the final straw that damns us the pyre. It could be dramatic reveal in the middle of a battle that'll turn our allies against us. It could be [whateverthefuck].

Relying on evidence and reason to stop the God Of Dirty Laundry and Contrived Schemes from revealing this radioactive SS uniform it planted next to our bloody vampire costume and nuclear bomb schematics and whatnot seems just tragically blind to what kind of setting we are in. Might as well take the L now and do damage control instead of sitting on this bomb and hoping it never goes off.


I'm gonna preface this by saying Boney is significantly smarter than me, and Tzeentchians aren't gonna have a plan, but the most immediate and destructive effect this could have on us would IMO be scaring us into acting in a compromising, self destructive manner. Either by immediate suicide, telling the GC we're compromised (less immediate suicide), or burying this and hoping it'll never come back to be us in the ass (much less immediate suicide).

If you are going to throw away the entire concept of rationality in favor of Tzeench finds a way there is literally no way I can can present a counterargument as this is a matter of belief in Tzeench's infallibility against all but the power of collective goodwill. I was going to say the Power of Friendship but that would be snide and I do not want to be like that. I think that yours is a legitimate position, just not one that can be argued against since it is not based on rational arguments or cost benefit analyses.
 
No, he does not fuck with the dice rolls, we know that because we the players see the dice rolls. Just like us rolling double sixes back in the K8P campaign was not actually Ranald this 1 was not actually Tzeench, it was a random number generator. I think we should take a step back and not start getting superstitious about a fictional demon-god.
We see what the QM lets us see, and we know we don't see all the dice rolled. We also know we don't see the decision making behind where precognitive gods step in to mess with things, only the effects after the fact as with where Raynold decides to put our reroll after looking at all our dice.

Fucking with fate is canonically what Tzeench does. In a quest format that normally takes the form of messing with dice. We have already seen similar mechanics with our blessing, and if anything I expect Tzeenchian demons to be even more extreme.
 
Another reason why I think there probably isn't a quick fix 'Talk to the College and they will fix the bobo' solution is because it would be vastly anticlimactic on a narrative level and just take all the air out of Chaos being an insidious threat. I do not think Boney would do that

Edit: Ninja'd by something adjacent to my point. :V
In a fantasy setting, you can understand the narrative themes that weigh on important actions by examining the setting's magic system. In a setting where magic is costly, those that try to cheat the costs tend to suffer. If it's secret, efforts to share it with the ignorant need to be individualized to avoid backfiring. If it requires honesty, then ruin befalls those who lie to others, or themselves.

What does Warhammer's magic system tell us? Dark and High Magics show us that cooperation is difficult, but worthwhile. Efforts to keep secret ties to the Dark Gods always backfire. The Dark Gods sabotage the unoriginal and crave novelty.

What's more novel than a Gray Wizard trusting the system not to persecute her unjustly?
 
We see what the QM lets us see, and we know we don't see all the dice rolled. We also know we don't see the decision making behind where precognitive gods step in to mess with things, only the effects after the fact as with where Raynold decides to put our reroll after looking at all our dice.

Fucking with fate is canonically what Tzeench does. In a quest format that normally takes the form of messing with dice. We have already seen similar mechanics with our blessing, and if anything I expect Tzeenchian demons to be even more extreme.

We did in fact see the random number generator that came up 1 and then we saw the follow up roll that gave Tzeench's holy number after the one. There is no way short of RL time travel that the second roll could have influenced the first

Also we do not have a re-roll of any kind.
 
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No, he does not fuck with the dice rolls, we know that because we the players see the dice rolls. Just like us rolling double sixes back in the K8P campaign was not actually Ranald this 1 was not actually Tzeench, it was a random number generator. I think we should take a step back and not start getting superstitious about a fictional demon-god.
TBF if we would just randomly roll another Nat 1 with magic, it would probably be fluffed as Tzeentch shit. It won't actually be, but at least some demon would go and claim it was Tzeentch all along.
 
Ranald doesn't give us a reroll, he gives us a couple of +20s.

As far as I can recall, there has never been a single reroll in this entire quest.
 
If you are going to throw away the entire concept of rationality in favor of Tzeench finds a way there is literally no way I can can present a counterargument as this is a matter of belief in Tzeench's infallibility 1against all but the power of collective goodwill. I was going to say the Power of Friendship but that would be snide and I do not want to be like that. I think that yours is a legitimate position, just not one that can be argued against since it is not based on rational arguments or cost benefit analyses.
To clarify I'm saying people don't have to react rationally to this information being revealed for it to damage us. You're saying there's no evidence what the demon says is true, no one would take it's word and it would never hold up in a court of law?

Well I'm saying this information doesn't have to be disclosed with full context and independent of any of our other nasty secrets before a court of law solely composed of rational people with a solid understanding and respect of Mathilde's character.

You're assuming that if this gets revealed we'll have the opportunity to defeat Tzeentch with Facts And Logic™, when the only time anyone intelligent would reveal this would be either (1) in conjunction with damning true information, (2) in the heat of the moment where any little doubt is damaging, (3) to a zealot or someone who already hates Mathilde enough that they won't care its suspect, (4) in whatever magical manner Tzeentch as a god of lies can launder it by to appear more legit, or more likely, (5) all of the above.
 
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