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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I think going to kragg is a must. That guy has been dealing with shit like this for centuries. Bet he could give us some good advice.

Also we have have divine back up. That trumps whatever this demon has going on. Reach out to ranald and the ancestor gods through gunnar.

Failing all that we just perma kill this SOB as lesson to others who try this kinda shit. We weaponised dwarf hell, we can def kill one demon lord.
 
GrimTheMad said:
Ranald doesn't give us a reroll, he gives us a couple of +20s.

As far as I can recall, there has never been a single reroll in this entire quest.
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Right. I misremembered. My point was we know from QM comments that our rolls get looked at collectively and their consequence judged, THEN the +20 is assigned. It doesn't go to the lowest roll. It goes to the roll that +20 most matters.

Effects that look at the results of rolls and mess with rolls after they have been made to push specific outcomes are in the game. Tzeench is one of the likeliest candidates to have such powers.

DragonParadox said:
We did in fact see the random number generator that came up 1 and then we saw the follow up roll that gave Tzeench's holy number after the one. There is no way short of RL time travel that the second roll could have influenced the first

Also we do not have a re-roll of any kind.
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This role wasn't it.

I fully expect to see such at thing crop up at some point.
 
Teal said:
To clarify I'm saying people don't have to react rationally to this information being revealed for it to damage us. You're argument is that there's no evidence what the demon says is true, no one would take it's word and it would never hold up in a court of law?

Well I'm saying this information doesn't have to be disclosed with full context and independent of any of our other nasty secrets before a court of law solely composed of rational people with a solid understanding of Mathilde's character.

You're assuming that if this gets revealed we'll have the opportunity to defeat Tzeentch with Facts And Logic™, when the only time anyone intelligent would reveal this would be either (1) in conjunction with other damning information, (2) in the heat of the moment where any little doubt is damaging, (3) to a zealot or someone who already hates Mathilde enough that they won't care its suspect, (4) in whatever magical manner Tzeentch as a god of lies can launder it by, or more likely, (5) all of the above.
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I am saying that no one sane would ever take the unsupported word of a demon and by definition anything a demon might say about this meeting would be unsupported as it and Mathilde were the only witnesses. Any zealot or enemy of Mathilde willing to take the word of said manifestation of cosmic evil would in fact believe any random lies the demon would say so the issue is the person not the information. Whether or not we told others about it would be wholly irrelevant to such a person as the demon would then move on to random lies.

Fouredged Sword said:
Right. I misremembered. My point was we know from QM comments that our rolls get looked at collectively and their consequence judged, THEN the +20 is assigned. It doesn't go to the lowest roll. It goes to the roll that +20 most matters.

Effects that look at the results of rolls and mess with rolls after they have been made to push specific outcomes are in the game. Tzeench is one of the likeliest candidates to have such powers.
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Small note here since I don't know if you remember, the Gambler gets assigned to an action and if within that action there are more than 2 rolls then the GM uses his judgement, it's not a whole turn effect like the others.

liquidsnake4673 said:
Failing all that we just perma kill this SOB as lesson to others who try this kinda shit. We weaponised dwarf hell, we can def kill one demon lord.
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Way way out of our league. Perma-killing a Greater Daemon of Tzeench is so far beyond Mathilde it's not even funny, that is not the kind you plan in universe unless you are Nagash or a Slann, for normal mortals when it happens it's through a strike an impossible serendipity
 
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Finally got up and caught up. Wow this that was a lot.

Boney being able to cause so much discussion over a (relatively) short update just goes to show how good their writing is.

DragonParadox said:
the temptation of vampirism isn't sentient and can't see the future
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Counterpoints: There are vampires that are sentient, can see the future, and might have a reason to turn us.
Jyn Ryvia said:
All that's left now for actions is to find scribes
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I know two guys that would be great for the role. Maybe our new friend can introduce us to them?
SuperSonicSound said:
Pretty much telling the Grey college is basically saying "I think I'm compromised" the answer to that is probably not going be something we like.
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It'd we worse if we didn't tell them and they still found out, because it might mean we really are compromised
Parabola said:
can't imagine the other three could have had the impact this did.
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Slaanesh in a cheerleader's outfit.

Now that is a cognito hazard.
liquidsnake4673 said:
I think going to kragg is a must. That guy has been dealing with shit like this for centuries. Bet he could give us some good advice.
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Agreed. Heck, he's probably been tempted by various demons a bunch of times
 
Erm, I don't think telling people about the Everchosen stuff would result in;
1. some kind of gambit pile-up that might manipulate or fuck up those people, like Alratan posited
2. those people deciding that what the Daemon said was truth and that we are an Everchosen candidate, and acting on that confirmation

More likely we'd get Daemon-checked again, told to get a stiff drink, maybe given some more advice or lessons on how to deal with Daemon shit, or whatnot. Which isn't nothing, as I said in my previous post; interacting with other people after spooky bullshit can be useful or helpful. (Sometimes you want to keep things secret. Sometimes you don't want to bottle things up, though.)

If somebody went to the Grand Theogonist or head priest of Morr or Matriarch of the Celestial College and got a vision or prophecy from them that said "Oof, sorry mate, looks like your destiny is to mantle Alduin and end the world" and they then went and got several confirmations on that, then it might be reasonable to believe or suspect that Alduin-mantling might be a sensible risk for this person.

But. If a person said "I slept in Sylvania and had nightmares about turning into a Daemon Prince" or "I crossed blades with a Higher Daemon and it said some spooky shit that it probably shouldn't have known and which worries me", the more likely result would be people concluding that it's a Daemon fucking with you. (I mean, it's also possible for some stupid or twitchy or paranoid people to default to Alduin-mantling suspicions, but we're assuming a type of person that isn't predisposed to extreme worry about you or about wizards or etc.)

I... don't think the Colleges or the Karaz Ankor would get much useability out of Everchosen-related-stuff dialogue. Maybe they might, maybe they won't. Can't be sure, I guess. Well. Maybe they'd go "Huh we've had people getting similar head-games played recently. Maybe it's just a mass head-game they play." Though they might, however, go "Huh, interesting" at the Daemon name-dropping Egrimm or Alric. ... Actually, wait, Alric probably got namedropped because he's spent a lot of time fighting against Chaos and Daemons, hasn't he? He probably does have a Daemon or two that has his name on a "List Of Assholes That Fucked Over My Lord's Plans" list or something. So now that I think about it, it's possible that Birdy McBirdface knew stuff about Egrimm and Alric not because it knew a ton about Mathilde, but because Alric casts a long shadow and Egrimm is his apprentice; Birdy McBirdface probably just cross-referenced some of his knowledge about Alric and Mathilde and connected some stuff. i.e. It looks like it's a scary insight into us specifically, but it could be the result of broad or deep knowledge of Chaos's enemies, and it's merely being applied to spook and headgame a Grey Wizard at the time.

When it comes to precognitive stuff, I suspect that Tzeentch's advantage isn't in being omniscient, it's in... in the equivalent of having a lot of spellcasting "infrastructure" ready to access. i.e. "Tzeentch can cast a lot of Azyr spells." It's like a modern government being able to cross-reference a ton of stuff and being able to collect a ton of data, and being able to use that to come up with insights that would astound or unnerve the common man. That doesn't make Tzeentch some super precognitive, it just means that he has, like, a Celestial College equivalent operating like a well-oiled machine and for a long time. (On top of whatever other benefits gods or chaos gods might innately get from being in the Aethyr.)

I think a Tzeentchian cultist or daemon is probably a bigger threat to you in terms of "They can probably cast some spells that'll give them an answer to 'When would be a good time and place to launch an assassination attempt on this person?'" rather than "They can path-to-victory you." They're intimidating and a threat because they can do a lot of legwork and investigation and have magic for that. Not omniscience or ability to plan out your future. They can probably appear intimidatingly omniscient to you though; if they can use Azyr magic to guess when would be a good time to show up or say something, then that might make you jump and think "Holy shit, am I dancing on their strings?" But it's not. It's just a grasp of psychology or of cold-reading, plus magic, plus possibly resources.

Though even then, that's not an absolute thing to depend on; that is to say, you can't always assume that Daemons or cultists would be able to go at you with a ton of spy-infrastructure or magic-infrastructure. Because Chaos Gods and their Daemons are, presumably, busy busy busy. They're busy realpoliticking against other Chaos Gods. They're busy handling a hundred different threats or points of interests. They're busy juggling a ton of concerns. They're busy putting out a lot of fires.

More likely, a given Cult or given Daemon would come at you with the resources they have, or it has, at hand. Which can be intimidating if it's a Lord of Change. Or a Cult that spent favor and money in order to get some prognostication done.
 
Boney said:
"Should you earn this world through right of conquest, your will here would be paramount.
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Which world exactly? What does the liminal realm that has just been created count as?

It seems like it would be dangerous to expand said liminal realm, but on the other hand; if we find a way to fit it with anti-demon enchantments it could become a more stable bulwark than it presently is.

Yes, the demon's message is impressively well-crafted. I'm sure the thread will be picking at it for a long time to come.
 
I think this is one of those cases where the foremost authority on how the leadership of the Grey College will likely react to being told certain things is definitely Lady Magister Mathilde Weber, since she is the person in the world who is very highly connected to that sort of thing. Any claim about how the Grey College will definitely react to particular pieces of information is going to lack her expert testimony until she lays it out herself to frame the inevitable vote. Personally, I expect that there should be a report that we punched through to the Liminal via a benign magical experiment, but there was a Tzeentchian demon on the other side who spoke to us before we could force the hole shut, and we likely should not say anything else about specifics. And then also tell Belegar/Kragg about the hole in reality.

I absolutely want to launder the info about the Everchosenbowl, but not sure how to do it. Another thing waiting for Mathilde's personal thoughts and framing of the actual vote. The knowledge is not super actionable, because there is no method of really tracking or preventing this stuff, but I don't think it would be useless intel if it was even slightly believed. Idk, that one is iffy.
 
Regarding what to do, I think that at the very least we should tell Belegar/Kragg and probably Gunnars, because not doing so might compromise the Karak's defenses in the future. Even if the portal is permanently closed with no other ill effects, just the possibility that it might not be is cause enough to warn them. Not doing so would be not only incredibly dangerous in the future, but also IMO arguably a breach of Belegar's trust and of our duties as Loremaster (we still are a K8P Loremaster, just not the Loremaster)
 
Ergosum said:
Regarding what to do, I think that at the very least we should tell Belegar/Kragg and probably Gunnars, because not doing so might compromise the Karak's defenses in the future. Even if the portal is permanently closed with no other ill effects, just the possibility that it might not be is cause enough to warn them. Not doing so would be not only incredibly dangerous in the future, but also IMO arguably a breach of Belegar's trust and of our duties as Loremaster (we still are a K8P Loremaster, just not the Loremaster)
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Again, not Kragg, he doesn't do 'understanding'

He casts hammer.
 
So I skipped a dozen pages and I'm not keeping up with the discussion. I'm not jiving with the vibes from skimming through the thread. Personally I'm having a lot of fun.

What I want to focus on is that regardless of the thread's inclination to disregard what the Daemon said and just "shrug and move on" as some have proposed, I want to make it clear that I don't think Mathilde even has that option. Mathilde is a very mentally resillient person, she's grown a lot from the start of the quest. But I'm also sure Boney is fully aware of the effects that something like this could have on literally anyone.

To most people, and even to Mathilde, this is a traumatic event. Mathilde was experimenting in what she believed to be a safe space. She had considered the possibilities of danger in the experimentation, but that doesn't mean that a Changer of Ways popping up in her backyard and choosing to mess with her is something she can just move on from. It's like working with a power tool in your workshop as an experienced carpenter, and your power saw almost brains you if not for your protective helmet. You knew the risks, you knew this was a possibility. That doesn't stop you from beign shocked and horrified at how close you were to doom.

Mathilde was made to feel powerless in her own safe space. She thought she could just press the rune to remove the bad magic and be done, and was mocked for it. And let's not forget that Mathilde did go through a spiritually painful experience:
Boney said:
Once none remains in the air, the pull of potent runecraft exerts itself on everything within the room, including yourself. It's not exactly painful to have the magical energies that have become so much a part of you drawn forcefully out, but it feels like it should be.
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Boney said:
You stride towards the slit and gather your will and what scraps of Ulgu managed to cling to your soul.
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Boney said:
You reach forward with your soul and bury talons of willpower into the newly-created fabric of reality.
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Boney said:
Tendrils of the purest magic burrowing through reality seep into your now magic-starved soul and your grip on reality redoubles and redoubles again.
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Boney said:
You don't even know where to begin rejecting the strength that even the slightest wisp of the energies of the Changer of Ways has given you, and even if you could, it would render you unable to do that which needs to be done.
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Boney said:
Already chewed through by the tendrils of magic, it takes only a few tugs for your empowered will-claws to force the newly-formed walls of reality to buckle and pucker.
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Boney said:
Scraps of reality's bloody flesh are pushed towards you by a sudden influx of the energies of the Aethyr, but they cannot flood freely into the world, because their point of ingress is contained within a bubble in the wall, and the only egress is the size of your palm. Like debris in a suddenly-narrowing river, as soon as one part of it snags it causes a pile-up of the rest, and in a moment a portal becomes a scarred pucker, holding fast against all that would press against it. This stops the tendrils, but it cannot stop the last whisper already planted in the past.
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It doesn't pass me by that Boney's descriptions here are so visceral. When I first read this passage, I felt the raw emotion and power in those words, like some sort of spiritual equivalent of cauterising a wound to stop the bleeding, then forcing yourself to set your bones back together. The metaphor doesn't work, but Mathilde sucked out all the magic in the atmosphere, so much so that it pulled at her very being, and she then had to absorb more magical power when she realised she messed up, some of which could have been tainted by the Changer, but she couldn't even begin to reject it because she had to do what had to be done. The descriptions here start to use words like "pucker, bloody flesh, scar" and other visceral meanings.

This was not a walk in the park for Mathilde. This is the sort of shit that would haunt a Wizard for the rest of their life. It's a traumatic event that would break someone and have them constantly question their thoughts. Let's not forget that the Changer literally messed with Mathilde's brain in such a way that whatever he said was vocalised within her thoughts, and Mathilde had no effective way of pushing him out.

Personally, I deal with intrusive thoughts. They suck immensely. They tell me to do and say things that don't represent who I am. It feels like there's a part of me that's just straight up evil and awful and wants to ruin my life. I struggle to deal with that voice, and I'm just a mundane human. I know this isn't an evil spirit trying to mess with me, at least I know that's some messed up part of me.

Mathilde doesn't have that luxury now. Whenever she starts thinking now, she will have to question whether those thoughts are her own or it's something else. Even if she rationally understands through circumstances that the Daemon would have no realistic way to maintain the connection, she can still be paranoid over it. I can attest that rationalisation only works to a certain degree. After a certain point you just have to live with endless uncertainty. This uncertainty is worse off when you know full well that a Daemon just talked to you despite your best efforts.

We might be able to let go of this and move on, but it's not going to be so easy for Mathilde. I would suggest therapy, but aside from lack of facilities, there's really no one Mathilde would trust this situation with. She'll have to work on it by herself. My best wishes to Mathilde's mental health.
 
I think basically everything the bird dude said can safely be ignored. Once we go ask Kragg or the colleges or the elves or whatever to take a look.

In the grim darkness of Warhammer, there is no therapy. Also, I don't see a realistic way of preventing this in any future experiments in that direction, so I propose we just don't do any of the stuff in the future.
 
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How do you really fuck with a grey wizard?

Give them true, valuable, time sensitive information from a source they have no choice but to try and ignore, then watch them twist in the wind.

Then, of course, once they have fully felt the pain of trying to ignore the information you gave them and getting burned by all of the consequences they could have prevented, talk to them again. This time with higher stakes.

Because now, they are all too aware of the price of ignoring everything you say. And they are primed to expect some truth with the lies.


Personally, I want to talk to Belegar and Heidi. Belegar because he deserves to know about the gate, has had our back and knows some of our secrets, and in general has been one of the steadier influences. Heidi because she is a ranaldian priest, can start kicking the empire into gear, and has been a friendly peer more than once.

I don't really want to go beyond those two. Maybe Pan, for trust.

dinomannitro6 said:
I think we're already preparing pretty well?
We're working to strengthen the waystone network, and strengthening the bonds between the Order nations of the Old World, and working to expand the knowledge of the Empire and its allies, including our about-to-debut technique to allow it to be able to utilize its greatest enchantments more freely.
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Rebuilding fortresses, stockpiling cannon and black powder, and expanding armies are the things that are going to be most useful in the face of an everchosen, and those don't get started unless we make an effort to tell important people what is coming.

mathymancer said:
Hey, you know who we 'delivered a response' unto? Barbitus, and the response was a conversation and an assessment that he probably didn't fall to Chaos.
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Counterpoint: dude had an upset stomach and got kinda quiet, and both Lord Magisters agreed that the most reasonable thing was probably to kill him just in case. The fact that we could and did clear him was regarded as a lucky break.

MightbeaMimic said:
Confessing this to our mentor or the head of the Greys is only 'suicide with more steps' if you assume they're utter morons
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Again, we killed a noble in her bed for sending letters and going to scandalous parties, and were on the edge of killing a well-regarded light journeyman because he was nauseous and quiet.

Don't assume a double standard in our favor will always exist.

dinomannitro6 said:
It's all either things we already knew
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Point of order: the thread knew, Mathilde didn't.

SakSak said:
Letting them know that a Demon spoke to us is not going to end with a pyre.
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It really, really could. Context and benefit of the doubt are going to be everything here.

The Phoenixian said:
Fires of Gazul specifically severing Liminal Spaces away from the Aether besides.
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Ok this idea I really like. Let's cut the mangled liminal realm we've got off from the warp and see if we can record what happens when a realm "crashes" into reality.
 
Dragonofelder said:
It'd we worse if we didn't tell them and they still found out, because it might mean we really are compromised
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How do they find out?

We're in a magically inert tower. You can't use divination to find out.
The only source for the information is Mathilde or the Daemon. Who do you envisage being stupid enough to believe a greater daemon of tzeenth.

Fundamentally this is a ridiculous concern because it's never going to be an issue.
 
Finally caught up to the thread. Amazing update Boney!

If we do decide to tell people about this I don't think that automatically means ruining the AV Orbflex. Saying "I fucked up while making a liminal realm and had a Daemon encounter" is literally all the pertinent information.
 
The only person we might be able to talk to about this without death being the most likely outcome is hidi, as in confession to our priest that is good friends with our god.

Even past the safety part of this, as codex said, this is very personal trauma. And a talk with your priest is what people do when mental health care is not a thing.

People are being way to easy going with 'let's tell everyone'.
 
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So, I'm going to drop some premises here:
First, Birdboi, if it was clever (which it seems to have been) would not say anything that would be verifiable as a lie-of-fact. (As opposed to lies-of-presentation, where the lie is in what it doesn't say. Those are its stock in trade.) I presume this because if this is not the case, then anyone who isn't already desperate/hooked would go "you're a liar, go away, your promises are worthless." So, anything it outright states is true, if probably misleading.
Second, Chaos is not omnipotent/infallible. We're probably up against a functional Intrigue score at least as high as Mathilde's, probably higher... but not enough higher to make her auto-lose.

So, I conclude that it is possible to get some useful information out of what Birdboi said, even if it did its best to make it very very hard, by virtue of putting most of what it said in the terms of "from a certain point of view"/Jedi-lies.

DragonParadox said:
It would be a waste to me, I would find it boring, hence why I would not vote for it. But if a majority wants to go for it then so be it. I don't know what else to tell you, pretend I like things I don't?
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DragonParadox confirmed as Tzeentch! :p
DragonParadox said:
I mean what do we gain from telling the Colleges or anyone else for that matter?

'The demon will not be able to reveal we hid anything' is only applicable if we reveal the whole truth which very few people seem to want to do. If the Grey College are the sort to listen to demon-sourced information the fact that we give them half the truth will only confirm whatever else the agents of the Changer say made up or no. It is not like there exists some neutral source that can confirm what happened here and catch us out.
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Mathilde can be up-front about "a minion of the Plotter talked at me after a miscast, doing the necessary check-in per Procedure", without disclosing everything it said. (I presume)
Alratan said:
The daemon spoke to us to advance its own plans. It isn't Tzeentch itself, where all is as planned because the god has infinite plans. This is a Greater Daemon that will have its own agenda.
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The Chaos Gods are not omnipotent. They can be beaten. Even by mortals.
DragonParadox said:
I am not suggesting paranoia, if anything I am suggesting the opposite, ignore the demon's words in word and need, form no conclusions based on them and that includes do not share them. This also means we the players do not attempt to metagame what we know about the Everchosen Bowl using the Daemon's words.
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The defining characteristic of paranoia is the inability to accurate determine what is not a threat.
Fouredged Sword said:
In my mind this is a moment where we need to accept the bird is going to win. He does that when he puts his mind to things. At the worst possible moment a dice roll is going to come out "A feathered hand turns the die, nat 1" and we are going to get screwed.
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Again, this is not a sure thing. The Chaos Gods are powerful, sure, but not infallible. We might lose a particular exchange, but that doesn't imply more than that.
 
Glau said:
Counterpoint: dude had an upset stomach and got kinda quiet, and both Lord Magisters agreed that the most reasonable thing was probably to kill him just in case. The fact that we could and did clear him was regarded as a lucky break.
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That is not at all what happened. First Egrimm said he'll watch over Barbitus:
Boney said:
"Is it serious?" you ask, noting the worry on Egrimm's face.

"I hope not," he replies, rubbing at his temples. "But it's hard to say. Hysh requires a concentrated introspection, and one downside to that is that when one of our own faces troubles, they turn inwards instead of doing anything that might indicate where their mind is at. It could just be shaken nerves, maybe Barbitus just isn't suited for the battlefield. But Barbitus - all three of them, really - have had cloistered lives since they were little more than children. And the Dark Prince has a great many hooks on its line."

You recall the barrage of temptations that you were met by, each tailored to target a different aspect of who you are. "You think he might have been tempted?"

Egrimm sighs. "Facing the forces of Chaos is the purpose of the Order of Light, and as such we try to prepare our initiates as best we can. But there is always attrition, and those that stare into the eye of the Great Enemy and balk are the least of those. It can be impossible to tell from the outside whether someone has recovered from their encounter with Chaos and are ready to face it again, or whether they have found in themselves a desire to seek it out for the wrong reasons."

You nod soberly. Every Order prefers to deal with such things in-house, but when all else fails it is to the Grey Order that the unenviable task of eliminating so-called Black Magisters falls. You've heard stories of how bad it can get when someone with a full College education decides to misuse it, and few of them ended cleanly. "You'll keep an eye on him?"

He nods. "Of course, and I'll give him what guidance I can. And if some suspicious accident ends my vigil prematurely, I trust you'll do what must be done."

"You have my word."

"Thank you. I don't think it will come to that, but better to be sure in such matters." He claps your arm and heads back towards his charges, and you watch him go thoughtfully. It speaks well of him that his concern over his hopefully demoralized and possibly corrupted Journeyman takes precedence over the pride he must feel from having scored the killing blow on a higher Daemon.
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Later, when Mathilde checked up on him, Egrimm said that he was still concerned, and he wasn't sure what to do:
Boney said:
"I'm still torn," he admits. "If he's tainted, he should be executed - for his own good, as if the tendrils are not yet too deep, he might still go on to a peaceful rest. If he's not, he should be allowed to continue with his Journeying and some day become our peer. But I can't say for sure one way or the other, not with any confidence, and there's no way to get hard answers without tainting his future career if he is innocent. Demotion to Apprentice or handing him over to the Magisters Vigilant might prevent a future Black Magister, but it's also very likely to prevent a future Light Magister, too."
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Execution was one possibility, but not in any way something both agreed Egrimm should definitely do. The other possibility was "do literally nothing", and a third possibility was to give him further scrutiny, but Egrimm was concerned that this would taint his future career if he's innocent - not exactly the concern of someone who thinks he should be killed just in case.
 
Lightwhispers said:
So, I'm going to drop some premises here:
First, Birdboi, if it was clever (which it seems to have been) would not say anything that would be verifiable as a lie-of-fact. (As opposed to lies-of-presentation, where the lie is in what it doesn't say. Those are its stock in trade.) I presume this because if this is not the case, then anyone who isn't already desperate/hooked would go "you're a liar, go away, your promises are worthless." So, anything it outright states is true, if probably misleading.
Second, Chaos is not omnipotent/infallible. We're probably up against a functional Intrigue score at least as high as Mathilde's, probably higher... but not enough higher to make her auto-lose.

So, I conclude that it is possible to get some useful information out of what Birdboi said, even if it did its best to make it very very hard, by virtue of putting most of what it said in the terms of "from a certain point of view"/Jedi-lies.


DragonParadox confirmed as Tzeentch! :p

Mathilde can be up-front about "a minion of the Plotter talked at me after a miscast, doing the necessary check-in per Procedure", without disclosing everything it said. (I presume)

The Chaos Gods are not omnipotent. They can be beaten. Even by mortals.

The defining characteristic of paranoia is the inability to accurate determine what is not a threat.

Again, this is not a sure thing. The Chaos Gods are powerful, sure, but not infallible. We might lose a particular exchange, but that doesn't imply more than that.
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I am not suggesting we be paralyzed by indecision either, I am suggesting we mentally quarantine everything the demon told us and never act on it, but really I can recognize a lost battle when I see one, I'm arguing with what feels like half the thread. I hope you guys are right on the benefits of cooperation as a thematic opposition to Tzeench because it looks like that is a thing we are going to experiment with.

Still if it does not work Mathilde should still be paranoid enough to run. Mathilde the Outlaw, isolated from all she has built would be an interesting turn for the quest, seeing how she can redeem herself etc...

Dragonofelder said:
Algard: "Hey Mathilde, we're getting reports that a lot of deamons are saying you met with a Lord of Change, any chance that's true?"
M: "...no?"
A: gets out the orb

Maybe I'm going to far, but this is Tzeentch, the plot god, and the Grey Order, legal paranoids.
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Mathilde: Puts hand on orb, is cleared because she is not possessed
Also Mathilde: Calls for Algard removal as an obvious security risk who listens and acts on what demons say.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I am not suggesting we be paralyzed by indecision either, I am suggesting we mentally quarantine everything the demon told us and never act on it, but really I can recognize a lost battle when I see one, I'm arguing with what feels like half the thread. I hope you guys are right on the benefits of cooperation as a thematic opposition to Tzeench because it looks like that is a thing we are going to experiment with it.

Still if it does not work Mathilde should still be paranoid enough to run. Mathilde the Outlaw, isolated from all she has built would be an interesting turn for the quest, seeing how she can redeem herself etc...
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Granted, I am assuming that the Grey Order does have protocols for "had a miscast, daemon talked at me" which are more responsive than "fire and sword". Because they're not memetic Sigmarites. But if that is not the case, I would reassess my plans on who to talk to.
 
DragonParadox said:
I am not suggesting we be paralyzed by indecision either, I am suggesting we mentally quarantine everything the demon told us and never act on it, but really I can recognize a lost battle when I see one, I'm arguing with what feels like half the thread. I hope you guys are right on the benefits of cooperation as a thematic opposition to Tzeench because it looks like that is a thing we are going to experiment with.

Still if it does not work Mathilde should still be paranoid enough to run. Mathilde the Outlaw, isolated from all she has built would be an interesting turn for the quest, seeing how she can redeem herself etc...



Mathilde: Puts hand on orb, is cleared because she is not possessed
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Algard: "That was just one of the orbs in my Maim-Demon Collection, which I have nicknamed Morbs".
Mathilde: *Internally screaming*
 
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