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If we have a Close Encounter Of The Feathery Kind, one that led permanent evidence in our lab, and didn't report it? That would absolutely be damning evidence that a skilled spymaster could maneuver Algard or another LM to discover.
What DragonParadox said.

Moreover, who could possibly know and report such a thing? In our literal private lab, on the other side of the continent, monitored by a Lord Magister?

We are the Lord Magister. We know about the Tear. It's already been reported to the authorities, because we are the authorities.
Yes, but the truth being behind it means that when someone goes looking they have a far better chance of actually finding something.
Finding... what? What is there to find?
 
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"Hey, Mathilde is under investigation for these crimes, as her Guild Superiors we gotta examine her property to clear her of these charges"

Belegar: You have no jurisdiction to be in my treasury manling.

It would admittedly be kind of funny to see someone try to bring prophetic dreams as evidence before a dwarf king, but I do not think the Grey order is stupid enough to attempt it.

He is not going to let them riffle through Mathilde's things without her agreement because they ask.

There is no treaty that allows an imperial representative to riffle though a Dwarf king's treasury, as soon ask to have a looksee though a dragon's hoard.
 
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It really, really could. Context and benefit of the doubt are going to be everything here.

Extremely unlikely, given 'Demons' is one possibility of a miscast every wizard is in danger of whenever casting a spell.

If every time a demon spoke to a wizard against that wizard's will led to that wizard being executed, there'd be even fewer capable wizards left. The easiest way to decimate the College ranks (hell, armies) would be for a Chaos army put demons in the front and begin shouting.

Reminder, the Colleges have classes on "How to avoid the attentions of the Four" which are a direct parallel with a class of "How to get the attentions of the Four", by simply removing the Not part of Do Not. We were even ordered to take that class, given the circles and plans we were involving ourselves in.

This is the level of trust we are under.

Magical experimentation as well is not only legal, but actively encouraged as long as reasonable safety measures are in place.

So if we self report that in the process of doing perfectly legal experimentation with all forseeable safety measures in place, an unforeseen thingy occured and a demon spoke to us before we could close up everything, I fail to see how the Grey College we've been introduced to over this quest could possibly default to "Right, burnination it is, it's the only way to be sure."
 
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This is not an equivalence. Context is incredibly important in trauma scenarios. This isn't something she can just tell a nearby Dwarf and realise something's off because they said insulator instead of absorber.
Oh, I'm not saying it won't be a much harder experience, just pointing out that questioning your own thoughts is something Grey Wizards are trained to do and not get completely broken by.

On a completely seperate note, I'm going to be honest, I'm not worried about frame jobs or reasonable people doing investigations, or people actively questioning Mathilde on the word of a demon. What I am worried about, if I'm worried about anything, are the moments in the dark. A fight, or infiltration, or investigation, or something, where Mathilde is alone with somebody or group of somebodies who really need to be able to trust each other, who are at their most vulnerable, and this demon or it's minions or something bring up that Mathilde has been "blessed" by Tzeentch or got an Everchosen offer.

It doesn't even have to work, really they could, after some thought, decide Tzeentch is a silly bird, they trust Mathilde, and dismiss the claim. But it doesn't have to, they just have to doubt long enough for the enemy to take advantage, and that period of doubt would get much smaller if Mathilde can confidently and honestly dismiss it with a "I reported it and got checked out, ignore them".

It doesn't have to be Algard or Kragg, but we should be able to say that someone with reasonable authority on the matter has given Mathilde the all-clear from this incident.
 
Oh, I'm not saying it won't be a much harder experience, just pointing out that questioning your own thoughts is something Grey Wizards are trained to do and not get completely broken by.

On a completely seperate note, I'm going to be honest, I'm not worried about frame jobs or reasonable people doing investigations, or people actively questioning Mathilde on the word of a demon. What I am worried about, if I'm worried about anything, are the moments in the dark. A fight, or infiltration, or investigation, or something, where Mathilde is alone with somebody or group of somebodies who really need to be able to trust each other, who are at their most vulnerable, and this demon or it's minions or something bring up that Mathilde has been "blessed" by Tzeentch or got an Everchosen offer.

It doesn't even have to work, really they could, after some thought, decide Tzeentch is a silly bird, they trust Mathilde, and dismiss the claim. But it doesn't have to, they just have to doubt long enough for the enemy to take advantage, and that period of doubt would get much smaller if Mathilde can confidently and honestly dismiss it with a "I reported it and got checked out, ignore them".

It doesn't have to be Algard or Kragg, but we should be able to say that someone with reasonable authority on the matter has given Mathilde the all-clear from this incident.

While that is true, that could always be the case. A Slaaneshi demon could show up under the same circumstances and claim Mathilde is Slaanesh's secret love child with Morathi and it would give you the same moment of shock.
 
A fight, or infiltration, or investigation, or something, where Mathilde is alone with somebody or group of somebodies who really need to be able to trust each other, who are at their most vulnerable, and this demon or it's minions or something bring up that Mathilde has been "blessed" by Tzeentch or got an Everchosen offer.
They've always been able to do that. Always. The truth isn't a magic cheat code for being believed. They receive no extra points for this encounter.
 
Moreover, who could possibly know and report such a thing? In our literal private lab, on the other side of the continent, monitored by a Lord Magister?



We are the Lord Magister. We know about the Tear. It's already been reported to the authorities, because we are the authorities.
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that crazy intense dream she had last year about a shadowy figure opening a hole in reality and being spoken to by a hidden thing,
Is this a scarred hole in reality sitting in the middle of her lab. Hmm. Hold up. This lab matches Magister Headintheclouds description of her vision exactly.

Belegar: You have no jurisdiction to be in my treasury manling.

It would admittedly be kind of funny to see someone try to bring prophetic dreams as evidence before a dwarf king, but I do not think the Grey order is stupid enough to attempt it.

He is not going to let them riffle through Mathilde's things without her agreement because they ask.

There is no treaty that allows an imperial representative to riffle though a Dwarf king's treasury, as soon ask to have a looksee though a dragon's hoard.
If your retort is just to put you hands on your hips and say "nuh-uh," and ignore half of what I write then you clearly aren't willing to consider alternate viewpoints

Whatever Redshirt Army's got the right idea there's no point
 
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While that is true, that could always be the case. A Slaaneshi demon could show up under the same circumstances and claim Mathilde is Slaansh's secret love child with Morathi and it would give you the same moment of shock.
Well yeah, I don't think we can completely erase it, just that we can minimize the moment. Having a ready answer to something that did actually happen will be better than not. Completely random nonsense is one thing, but something true that can't be met with "it's been dealt with" would prompt a slightly different reaction, and it's in those slight differences they could get us.

I'll grant, this is a minor risk entirely dependent on Mathilde ever being caught in a situation where some Tzeentchian servant needs longer than the half second of doubt something random would prompt, and less than the time it would take to reasonably address the accusation. There's a very real chance it could never matter. But I one hundred percent expect Boney to keep this in his back pocket on the off chance it ever does come up and slap us silly for it at the worst possible moment.
The real danger is that Magic suddenly works better for us when near tzeentcian sorcery and that's kind of hard to do something about but also kind of hard to prove/notice.

+20 to rolls is massive but at the same time it's basically only 1/5th of the possibility space Mathilde already had.
If we really need to we could probably explain it away as Ranaldian influence—assuming Ranald doesn't mind, but he definitely knows what's up already and would probably let it slide if we're honestly not fucking around—since Melkoth has actually seen us do some crazy shit when we were using the Coin. Granted, he doesn't know what it was, but it's definitely something we had before we ran into the Tzeentchian demon.
 
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If your retort is just to put you hands on your hips and say "nuh-uh," and ignore half of what I write then you clearly aren't willing to consider alternate viewpoints

Whatever Redshirt Army's got the right idea there's no point

Belegar letting random wizards waltz though his treasury with one hammerer in tow and riffle though Mathilde's stuff because of 'treaties' kind of misses the point of how dwarfs feel about property... like really misses the point. I'm not sure how else to explain it.
 
Belegar letting random wizards waltz though his treasury with one hammerer in tow and riffle though Mathilde's stuff because of 'treaties' kind of misses the point of how dwarfs feel about property... like really misses the point. I'm not sure how else to explain it.
Unless the Dwarf takes one look at us and starts grumbling about oaths and obligations we have to those we are sworn and then it becomes a lot more difficult for Webber to say no to a search.
 
The thing about "they've always been able to do this" is that it ignores that they are now starting to actually do this. Like, yeah, volcanic eruptions have always been a possibility, but now the ground is rumbling every few hours. The priority goes up.

Not really? An EC can come at any time - particularly after a bit of time passes since the demise of the last EC.

Sure. But the difference between "it's been 200 years since the last everchosen, people have mostly stopped thinking about the next one" and "there's an existential threat to the empire that's going to hit in the next decade or two" is a very large one, in terms of what people are doing to prepare.

Extremely unlikely, given 'Demons' is one possibility of a miscast every wizard is in danger of whenever casting a spell.

Yep. Magic is very dangerous. That's a reason to be grateful we've made it this far cleanly, not a reason to argue demons showing up isn't really all that dangerous.

If every time a demon spoke to a wizard against that wizard's will led to that wizard being executed, there'd be even fewer capable wizards left.

Mathilde is 40 years old and this is the first time this had happened to her. Do you think she's an outlier in that most other wizards have this happen sooner?
 
"I had a miscast, a demon appeared, it tried to tempt me by promising to make me the next Everchosen, suggested that there were other candidates who'd take on the role if I didn't, and then I banished it."

It is the 100% truth, it is a realistic interaction for a miscast to result in, and we are highly regarded and trusted by our allies. Have Kragg check out the hole in the wall in reality we made, ask Hatalath for tips on how to keep birds out of your house, and let Algard know that we had a bit of a spooky interaction with a demon, but we're fine, really, oh, and by the way this is how you make a liminal realm you're welcome.

Job done, let's move on to the next calamity already. This talking in circles is getting a mite boring.
 
Unless the Dwarf takes one look at us and starts grumbling about oaths and obligations we have to those we are sworn and then it becomes a lot more difficult for Webber to say no to a search.

Yeah but at that point we would have to be there to talk to him, having found out in advance that Starke wants to investigate us and is talking about the vault.

That book will be long gone by the time we graciously show him the contents of the vault. We are a teleporting wizard and we know what the inside of that shadowed vault looks like
 
Attempting to do a frame job for Mathilde as a cult leader is a extremely difficult possibility to actually work for Tzeentch primarily since whatever the framing is for has to be compatible with the timeline of Mathilde's known actions and positions at that point in time. For example attempting to frame Mathilde as a leader of Chaos Undivided is a difficult prospect because of multiple factors, mainly because of clear evidence of where she is going with the gyrocopter pilots, the logistics of attempting to manage a cult being extremely difficult far away in terms of logistics along with fact that most of the actions Mathilde does involves people who are essentially witnesses to what she is doing. There is a extreme difficulty to framing her for long distance events due to logistics and framing her for events locally due to her extreme tendency to work with others to the point it is noticed by the Dawi. As for her being framed as a chaos cultist the likely possibility is to first investigate through normal methods such as examining schedules or irregularities that support or disapprove the idea of them being Chaos such as what Starke did for the Stirland Watch incident.

Leading to actions like the suggested going to the treasury and risking angering the Dawi for potential misleading information to be areas of last resort. Along with the fact that it is likely the Dawi will not allow them to enter the treasury unless evidence of fact is given due to the significance it represents.
 
Belegar letting random wizards waltz though his treasury with one hammerer in tow and riffle though Mathilde's stuff because of 'treaties' kind of misses the point of how dwarfs feel about property... like really misses the point. I'm not sure how else to explain it.
They also feel quite strongly about the rights of guilds and defending against chaos but the fact that you refuse to consider any other possibility (Starke and Algard are LM Greys, the sneak through the treasury, they find Matty's notes on the Liber Mortis in her library, etc) just proves my point. If your only role in the discussion is to skim contradictory posts and say in response "no, this broad possibility can never happen, because this one specific example contradicts My Opinion, which is Correctermost"

Well

can it even be called a discussion
 
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So, this is a whole lot of arguing about minor dangers on either side of this whole mess, so I'm going to propose a very simple solution.

@Boney what exactly do Grey College protocols say Mathilde should do about this sort of situation? I've seen some guesses, but I can't recall a specific claim.

Basically, whatever Mathilde and ourselves decides to do for whatever reason is probably suspect no matter what, so we should just do the entirely reasonable things laid out far in advance for this, whatever they may be, and then go about our day, instead of trusting the panicked, untrained decisions that a bunch of people in another world who have never had to deal with daemons can come up with.
 
They also feel quite strongly about the rights of guilds and defending against chaos but the fact that you refuse to consider any other possibility (Starke and Algard are LM Greys, the sneak through the treasury, they find Matty's notes on the Liber Mortis in her library, etc) just proves my point. If your only role in the discussion is to skim contradictory posts and say in response "no, this broad possibility can never happen, because this one specific example contradicts My Opinion, which is Correctermost"

Well

can it even be called a discussion

I do not think anyone will be risking their lives and the good standing of the order trying to sneak into a dwarf king's treasury because magister what's her face had a bad dream that backed up some demonic inspired babbling. The reason I am using this one example is because this is the one you gave, I cannot debate things that had not been brought up.
 
I don't really read this as us needing to worry about what other thinks of Mathilda? Like, there is enough reasons to assume that a demon casting suspicioun on Mathilda isn't gonna be taken at his word? And at the moment we don't actually have any marks of chaos or corruption on our souls.

We've just been put on the list of people whom Plotter don't mess with when casting magic, fast-track admin priviliges.

What this does read to me, is the demon casting Mathilda herself into paranoia. Making her doubt herself, isolating and so forth. Like the way her entire internal monologue just shuts down into bare necessities when the Lord of Change starts talking shows to me that Mathilda really wasn't dealing that well with it.

This isn't something i think Mathilda can just put her head in sand and ignore. It was spesifically designed so she would be bothered about till end of her days by the Lord of Change's account, trustworthy as that is.

Isolating herself, when she is at her most doubtfull due to a demon inserting words in her head does not strike me as what will make her feel better. That road just leaves to more self-doubting and so forth.

Taking to Collage really feel like best course of action here. Because they would have the experience on how to actually talk people through this? The idea they would kill Mathilda seems kinda ridiculous, becaude like.

Logically what does that mean? That literally no other patriarch have ever encountered a Lord of Change? Because thewizard dn't excecuted? That no wizard during the great war fought against the Plotter? Because a lot of the first patriarchs was from that war.

By the account that meeting a lord of change is enough to merit execution, that means that literally no other wizard in entire collage that Mathilda is aware of have encountered one.

No matter what we choose here, the Lord of change wins, Because that's what he set out to do. So our best option is to get Mathilda to people whom can help and support her. Not try and pretend this never happened. Because if nothing else, The Lord of change won't allow her to forget.
 
The thing about "they've always been able to do this" is that it ignores that they are now starting to actually do this. Like, yeah, volcanic eruptions have always been a possibility, but now the ground is rumbling every few hours. The priority goes up.
It's not that they won't, it's that they're not any better at it. This doesn't make the lava hotter.
Mathilde is 40 years old and this is the first time this had happened to her. Do you think she's an outlier in that most other wizards have this happen sooner?
As an aside, I think this is the case, actually. Miscasts are an order of magnitude more common for non-quest-protagonist wizards, and daemonic contact that lets you learn the Lore of Chaos is a rather middling result, all told.

It's like receiving a coupon for those study by mail college courses.
 
I do not think anyone will be risking their lives and the good standing of the order trying to sneak into a dwarf king's treasury because magister what's her face had a bad dream that backed up some demonic inspired babbling. The reason I am using this one example is because this is the one you gave, I cannot debate things that had not been brought up.
I mean there were four other damning pieces of evidence in my example, and this is, yannow, Warhammer. Where there's a full ass College practicing prohpecy, who's prophecies have been shown in thread to be cautiously believed if corroborated by other evidence.

Also it's Fucking Warhammer, a setting where Tzeentch has manufactured prophecies and fucked around with fate multiple times to get what he wants, again, re: Archaon. Expecting Capable Intelligence Work seems like underestimating compared to that. But if you're just going to ignore all that I said and the reality of the setting itself

Whatever. I woke up to the update, felt Strongly that we had to bury it, like you do, then did a full twelve hour shift and went to the gym and cooked dinner before I sat down to respond, and by then I'd mellowed and my position had moderated a lot. Maybe you should do the same
 
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