Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
For general Waystone and magic lore this is true. For Waystone Commands, it's hard to see what traps could be laid, given the stark "either the command does something programmed into the Waystone or it doesn't."

Also, if they wanted the network blown up they could have managed it over the last few thousand years. They know where it is, and how to find the Waystones.
First of all, that still involves letting Malekith or Morathi know about our project.

Secondly, pushing buttons you don't know the function of on irreplaceable lost-tech life-support machinery is generally a bad idea, especially when the person pointing out the buttons to you and telling you their alleged purpose is that untrustworthy.
 
First of all, that still involves letting Malekith or Morathi know about our project.

Secondly, pushing buttons you don't know the function of on irreplaceable lost-tech life-support machinery is generally a bad idea, especially when the person pointing out the buttons to you and telling you their alleged purpose is that untrustworthy.
Letting them know about the project beyond this one grey magister having an interest would be bad, yes.

For the latter, I'll spare the rest of the thread rehashing the whole argument again from the last however many pages - but the commands were programmed in by the creators so they can't really do anything too terrible, anything that goes wrong without disconnecting the Waystone outright would be fixed by the guiding intelligence (and we already know the disconnect command), and there wouldn't really be a payoff for the Druuchi to sabotage a single Waystone that was picked for testing purposes to be as expendable as Waystones get.
 
Before I actually make the lengthy effort post I claimed I would last night, which is already 1/3 done, I realise I should ask if the thread actually wants my effort post about the Elven deep lore (still sieving through it) about how the High Elves are a global power who do global things, in comparison to regional powers like the Empire or the Karak Ankor.

(In the sense that they have way more influence than a regional power, not that they literally span the globe, because Warhammer is a hell pit.)

I'm not - and I don't think anybody in this thread is - arguing that we should trust the Druchii completely and bring them in on the Waystone project and make them the Empire's official allies in fucking over Marienburg. But people need to stop acting like doing literally anything with them will result in the automatic destruction and/or conquest of the Empire.
No, you're right, that is extreme. It would be kind of impossible to learn about or deceive them if we went that far.
But there are definitely a couple in here who trust them with *way* too much, out of the idea that we can mutually benefit or positively influence them with a long term Imperial pact. And that is daft.
 
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Before I actually make the lengthy effort post I claimed I would last night, which is already 1/3 done, I realise I should ask if the thread actually wants my effort post about the Elven deep lore (still sieving through it) about how the High Elves are a global power who do global things, in comparison to regional powers like the Empire or the Karak Ankor.

(In the sense that they have way more influence than a regional power, not that they literally span the globe, because Warhammer is a hell pit.)
I would prefer both if that not too much work for you
 
Letting them know about the project beyond this one grey magister having an interest would be bad, yes.

For the latter, I'll spare the rest of the thread rehashing the whole argument again from the last however many pages - but the commands were programmed in by the creators so they can't really do anything too terrible, anything that goes wrong without disconnecting the Waystone outright would be fixed by the guiding intelligence (and we already know the disconnect command), and there wouldn't really be a payoff for the Druuchi to sabotage a single Waystone that was picked for testing purposes to be as expendable as Waystones get.
Just jumping in and throwing mystery commands from Druchii at irreparable objects and hoping Caledor Dragontamer catches the ball if you drop it seems like an overly risky approach. Sure, there might be relatively expendable Waystones around for us to experiment with, but note the "relatively", and remember that the whole reason Waystone research is so restricted is because everyone trying to use those relatively expendable Waystones for experiments and occasionally exploding them would quickly lead to the network falling apart.
 
Before I actually make the lengthy effort post I claimed I would last night, which is already 1/3 done, I realise I should ask if the thread actually wants my effort post about the Elven deep lore (still sieving through it) about how the High Elves are a global power who do global things, in comparison to regional powers like the Empire or the Karak Ankor.

(In the sense that they have way more influence than a regional power, not that they literally span the globe, because Warhammer is a hell pit.)
I would at least like to see it, in the thread or in a PM if you decide against posting it.
 
Just jumping in and throwing mystery commands from Druchii at irreparable objects and hoping Caledor Dragontamer catches the ball if you drop it seems like an overly risky approach. Sure, there might be relatively expendable Waystones around for us to experiment with, but note the "relatively", and remember that the whole reason Waystone research is so restricted is because everyone trying to use those relatively expendable Waystones for experiments and occasionally exploding them would quickly lead to the network falling apart.
Druuchi are perfectly happy to betray people, but they generally want to get something out of it. Having this one Waystone blow up in the face of the Grey Magister who they're liaising through to negotiate with the Empire would be very counterproductive. And Waystones blowing up aren't an end in and of itself, or Morathi would have waltzed in and destroyed the network that was relying on security though obscurity at any time in the last few thousand years.

No one's really come up with a command that would actually cause problems, that the creators would have actually included.
 
Before I actually make the lengthy effort post I claimed I would last night, which is already 1/3 done, I realise I should ask if the thread actually wants my effort post about the Elven deep lore (still sieving through it) about how the High Elves are a global power who do global things, in comparison to regional powers like the Empire or the Karak Ankor.

(In the sense that they have way more influence than a regional power, not that they literally span the globe, because Warhammer is a hell pit.)
Sure, I'd be happy to see it. I'd be interested in how 8th edition differs specifically too, if you're looking, since that seems to have more prosocial High Elf stuff than its predecessors (though it also comes with some less great stuff, like importing ideas from 40k baselessly.)
 
Sure, I'd be happy to see it. I'd be interested in how 8th edition differs specifically too, if you're looking, since that seems to have more prosocial High Elf stuff than its predecessors (though it also comes with some less great stuff, like importing ideas from 40k baselessly.)
Unfortunately, I have no clue how to distinguish that because I don't like Sci Fi very much, so you'll have to deal with that Eldar corruption in your deep Elf lore.
 
Druuchi are perfectly happy to betray people, but they generally want to get something out of it. Having this one Waystone blow up in the face of the Grey Magister who they're liaising through to negotiate with the Empire would be very counterproductive. And Waystones blowing up aren't an end in and of itself, or Morathi would have waltzed in and destroyed the network that was relying on security though obscurity at any time in the last few thousand years.

No one's really come up with a command that would actually cause problems, that the creators would have actually included.
And they are getting something out of it: whatever genuine knowledge we're trading them for those commands, since they're definitely not giving them away for free. And hey, since they now have the good stuff in their hands, why not give a faulty product for the lulz, because backstabbing is now safe?
 
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And they are getting something out of it: whatever genuine we're trading them for those commands, since they're definitely not giving them away for free. And hey, since they now have the good stuff in their hands, why not give a faulty product for the lulz, because backstabbing is now safe?
I think the implication is the Druuchi are pursuing long term diplomatic relations with the Empire, and a quick backstab is both antithetical to that and out of character for the long term schemers that are the Dark Elves.

EDIT: Not to say I think a long term diplomatic relationship is in any way a good idea for us. I just think pursuing this quest path isn't likely to harm us in the short term.
 
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I think the implication is the Druuchi are pursuing long term diplomatic relations with the Empire, and a quick backstab is both antithetical to that and out of character for the long term schemers that are the Dark Elves.
What's to say the sabotage will be that obvious? It could be using commands in contexts they're not meant to be used in, which is fine once or twice but will cause problems years to decades down the line if used in the pattern the Druchii is suggesting.
 
And they are getting something out of it: whatever genuine knowledge we're trading them for those commands, since they're definitely not giving them away for free. And hey, since they now have the good stuff in their hands, why not give a faulty product for the lulz, because backstabbing is now safe?
That genuine knowledge is what really gives me the willies. There's only two groups that have access to Waystone Commands, the Druchii and the Asur. By going to the Druchii, we have demonstrated that we are unwilling to go to the Asur, since they would be the obvious choice. As such, our leverage in negotiations will be far from strong. That's not good when you consider that just about any piece of information we sell them will almost certainly be used maliciously.
 
That genuine knowledge is what really gives me the willies. There's only two groups that have access to Waystone Commands, the Druchii and the Asur. By going to the Druchii, we have demonstrated that we are unwilling to go to the Asur, since they would be the obvious choice. As such, our leverage in negotiations will be far from strong. That's not good when you consider that just about any piece of information we sell them will almost certainly be used maliciously.
I mean, we could just use knowledge the Druchii can't use against us or can't really use at all like Waaagh and Peace or "How to Get As Many Arcane Marks As Soon As Possible With Minimal Miscast Risk", but still. We only have a limited amount of this low-risk knowledge to bargain with.
 
Murder is a specific subset of killing:
The act of deliberate killing of a person or other being without moral justification, especially with malice aforethought.
Sigismund the Conqueror earned his title by expanding the Empire's borders to the largest they ever were, during which point they included Parravon, Montfort. Marienburg (and the Westerlands around it), Sylvania, the land of Border Princes all the way to the banks of the Howling River in the south and the Bay of Wrecks to the west, and practically all of Kislev's Southern Oblast.

To my knowledge, these borders remained largely in place until the devastation wrought by the Black Death and subsequent Skaven invasion.

I know it might sound weird for a follower of *this* thread but I've never been a huge empire fan. Don't get me wrong they're cool but I've read more about the Skaven, Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings than I have the !NotH.R.E!!With Griffins and Magic!!.

So... due to that could you remind this ignorant sod of a reader when this occurred, just how long before the Black Death* did it happen like year 900 or something?

*I hear the period involving the Black Death and the Skaven trying to actually live on the surface long term got some good Black LIbrary novels but sadly I've never gotten my hands on those.

Apologies, that information was easier to find than I thought! It's interesting to know that for some five hundred years the empire was almost twice as big as in the years between Magnus and Franz.

I clearly have some reading to do.

EDIT: Yeah murder meant to address that, I think this is a poor working definition of murder theres a reason ''in cold blood'' gets tossed around a lot.
The calculated malice involved or not should matter much more than most motives, hence things like Manslaughter being a thing, etc, etc.

I don't want to help the thread be dismissive of the charge itself by merely saying ''without moral justification'' given many murderers obviously *do* feel morally justified and you'd have to ask *which morals for which killings* etc, etc, which is a long complicated and perhaps unhelpful road.

I personally could say I think some of the killings our protagonist got up to were ''morally unjustified'' but that's because my morality is far from matching the government under which she serves.

We obviously see such clashes in the Real World too with governments sometimes refusing to extradite killers they are fond of or see as justified. I won't take a stance on any specifics, I just think this is a bad and unhelpful definition and am trying to demonstrate why.
 
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I mean, we could just use knowledge the Druchii can't use against us or can't really use at all like Waaagh and Peace or "How to Get As Many Arcane Marks As Soon As Possible With Minimal Miscast Risk", but still. We only have a limited amount of this low-risk knowledge to bargain with.
And naturally, the low-risk knowledge is probably going to be worth significantly less on the bargaining table than the risky stuff.
 
What's to say the sabotage will be that obvious? It could be using commands in contexts they're not meant to be used in, which is fine once or twice but will cause problems years to decades down the line if used in the pattern the Druchii is suggesting.
It's just a matter of difference of view and opinion of this gamble.

Some betting they won't screw around with the first few one of transactions for codes on waystones to lure us as a representee of the empire into long term relations with the Druchi which I have big doubts on we'll be lured that deep as their litteretly ruled by Malekith and Morathi and thus a quick betrayal on this one waystone blowing up in our face with wrong commands seems unlikely if they want long term relations to fuck with Ulthuan.

Second being if we lose one waystone... well the old world has been losing them ever since the Asur left, The human's of the old world aren't exactly the strongest and goddam the entirety of the empire is almost enemy territory of bloody forests inhabited by all sorts of gribblies like vampires, blood fane, beast men, chaos ???, orks, godd dam rat men under every notable place humans inhabit.

Point is, the waystone network in the oldworld has been loosing waystones slowly for the past few millenia to these evil forces like the orks turning it into a Mork & Gork golem or beast men corrupting it and vampire's and necromancers turning it to a font of dhar for their own power and chaos. 1 waystone blowing up because druchi fucked with the command codes is unfortunate but not a game ender for the waystone network as I see it as the old world has been slowly loosing them for millenia since the elves left.

Finally, were just betting that hopefully the commands programmed into the waystones by sane rational people of the golden age of the elves and dwarves doesn't have a self defeating purpose like blow up.

Considering all this, i'm willing to bet the first one of transactions for arcane knowledge aren't going to purposely blow up in our faces since they want to open up further relations with the empire... if some part's ommitted because Morathi doesn't want another rival like Nagesh but with our considerable number of reaserchers we should be able to check said command codes and discover what we can do with them to mitigate drawbacks or how best to use them with plans to turn forth the power of the waystones into something productive to the empire like the Eonir and ice mages of Kislev do.

Like, Morathi codes she gives us allows the connection of another waystone de - activated to once again join the network proper but omit's the code to make sure it limits it's flow it can handle or it explodes? We realize this and find out one of the ways to mitigate this is to plop a hag of hedgewise spirit to the waystone to nom on extra magic winds or something.

It's all a gamble and i want waystones lore and actual recreation of them and if the codes are absolutely neccesery, I know Ulthuan won't give them to us as Boney repeatedly said they want us to fuck of and will send Teclis back to the colleges to cancel our project which while probably a W I want waystones dammit gamble with druch codes I go.
 
Well just as long as this isn't a hint that you're going with the End Times Elves as your canon, and that Old Mal and his bat shit mother are just 'misunderstood' and we'll be fine.
 
Well just as long as this isn't a hint that you're going with the End Times Elves as your canon, and that Old Mal and his bat shit mother are just 'misunderstood' and we'll be fine.
If you want Boney to go on a rant about the End Times, he can. He has before.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.
 
Alright. Like I promised, is the morning, having breakfast, slow day, going to trawl through that Elven deep lore to collate reasons for why I say the Asur do a lot of global good (in comparison to the Dwarven regional good). I would like to thank Blackout for the moral support.

Before I get into this, I remind everyone that the Asur have quite a few flaws, the most prominent practice being their complete lack of allies. When even the Dwarves have more allies than you, you must understand something is wrong. I do maintain, however, that if I understand correctly the Asur are one of the two Order factions with truly global influence, and the only one actually doing things with it on a regular basis.

I basically based it on four points:
1. the Asur keep the Vortex safe, and with it the world. Ergo, Shield of Civilisation.
(Again, it being involuntary does not make their job less important.)
2. The Asur are the primary faction fighting the Evil Elves (and, yesterday I learnt, the Evil Dwarves).

(The reason I count this as a global good and not regional good Is because of the nature of the threat. Greenskins and Skaven are a global threat, but they are not one faction with a home base and global reach like the Dark Elves or Chaos Dwarves- the Dwarves kicking the arse of Greenskins in the World's Edge Mountain does not directly affect Greenskins in Lustria or the Far East, while the Asur taking out a Black Arc or blockading the Chaos Dwarves hurts their ability to act everywhere.)

(Yes, the Under Empire should be a power with global reach, if the Under Empire was a united political entity, but it's clearly not. Not even the Council of 13 can act without trying to screw each other, let alone their even more short sighted subordinates, 99.9% of the time, and thank goodness for that. The UE is more like hundreds of regional and minor threats all connected by racial unity, intrigue, trade and xenophobia, which unfortunately means burning down warrens in the World's Edge Mountains doesn't directly effect Skaven in, say, Tilea, except by adding another factor to whatever passes for an economy down there.)

3. The Asur protect the Waystones.
4. The Asur fight Chaos over a far larger area than the Empire or Karaz Ankor.

These two are what I'm trying to prove.
(Also, Matt Ward is annoyingly wordy.)

8th Edition High Elf Army Book Quotes
The Lords of Ulthuan
Guardians of Order
While the High Elves consider themselves to be the defenders of the world, that calling doesn't necessarily extend to the protection of other races.
[Paraphrase next few lines: Most High Elves do not really believe in the sanctity of the humans or dwarves, but prop up other Order factions because the alternative is that they have to deal with even more shit.]
This is not to say that the High Elves never fight alongside other races, but it is true that such alliances seldom come about save through the intervention of exceptional and foresighted individuals.

…..
They have not the wit to see that if the High Elves choose to trade with another race, it is not of a desire for coin or armaments. [Paraphrase next few lines: Because Ulthuan is naturally large and immensely wealthy, they don't need anything outside, so don't economically care about trade. They mostly use it to spread their spy network and collect gossip.]

Even in matters of war, the High Elves seldom commit themselves unless it will substantially benefit their cause.
[Paraphrase next sentence: High Elves OP, thanks Ward.]
Every battle, whether it be a skirmish between warbands, a clash of armies or the siege of a great city, is fought because it will shift the balance between the order the HE seek to maintain and the destruction caused by the onset of Chaos. Not all such battles are fought directly with the forces of the Dark Gods. Though they know it not, rampaging Greenskins, meddling men…
[Paraphrase: GW's workshop for HE fighting everyone is that the HE are relentlessly interventionist against Chaos where they can reach, which includes slapping down Chaos plots by refusing to explain themselves and shooting the people involved.]

The war that HE fight is a desperate one, with no ultimate victory in sight. The forces of Chaos are endless and eternal, whilst the HE dwindle daily.
[Etc, etc, the HE are going extinct.]

[Now going over individual kings. Finubar seems cool.]
[In Early History, the Elves waged a massive anti-Daemon war, realised they couldn't actually win, and so created the Vortex. Later on, they would create the Waystone network all over the world with their best friends the Dwarves, and nothing could break this brotherhood.
Nothing.

And then Malekith broke this brotherhood and ruined everything forever. Even worse, Everything includes Ulthuan when he sailed off with a massive chunk of it, meaning the Vortex and the Waystones are now even more important than before in keeping the place afloat, at a time in which the HE no longer have allies or strength.

Before Finubar, the HE literally did not understand that factions like the Empire and Bretonnia existed. Like, they effectively thought Everyone Was Norscan, and were greatly confused when some people claimed otherwise, so the Phoenix King dispatched Finubar. After Finubar sailed around the globe, he came back and patiently explained no, the nations of man are not aligned with Chaos, aren't primitives, and we can deal with them. Hence, Lothern. This happened approximately around 2000, Imperial Calendar.

Finubar is the current PK. He's a pretty cool guy, but despite the best efforts of the elves the world seems to be growing only more and more dangerous, and themselves less and less numerous. Although they still prospered in past ages despite their losses, once more it looks like they may be under apocalyptic threat.]

[The Book only covers Finubar's rein in actual detail, though, with a timeline and such, so that's the only place I can draw actual examples of Elven interventionism from.]

~2250- Slaughter at Bleak Meadow. Asur + Asrai vs the Beastmen. Finubar curries favour with the Asrai by helping them kill a staggering amount of Beastmen besieging Athel Loren, and it seems to have worked.

~2280- The Asur and Barack Varr briefly team up to kick Greenskins arse. They're extremely successful, but this only lasts a couple decades before their inability to tolerate the other forces them to split up again.

~2300- Great Chaos Invasion. Ulthuan is directly invaded by an enormous amount of DE with Dark Elf Support. Many elven heroes fight and die to stop them. Two or three years later, Teclis helps the Empire out a great deal, but it doesn't say whether that was the Phoenix Throne or just Teclis.

Even more Dark Elf and daemonic assaults directly into Ulthuan.
Later, Greenskins get in on thr action too.

~2340- Tyrion takes a squire. Eldyra is cool. DoDA is set around here.
About a decade later, Otto Steinroth somehow manages to sack Ulthuan in an amazing display of good luck, for which HE sailors immediately raze half of Marienburg chasing him down. This leads to many Asur feeling conflicted about burning down Marienburg, because some of them actually lived there and liked it.

~2360- HE then sink a Norscan Fleet attacking Marienburg, and use this to resume good relationships.

~2420- Part of Bretonnia comes under attack by the Beastmen, and the HE reinforce them. In reality, the HE's primary motive is to defend the Waystones there, but they obviously don't tell the Bretonnians that. The Brettonians, in return, think the HE are Cool.

~2420- the HE kick Malekith's arse in Naggarond.

Right Now- the He are actively waging a campaign against the DE on their own turf, because it looks like the Dark Elves are responsible for the disappearance of the Asur's emissary to the Dwarves (!!!). It may or may not be going well.

The Glittering Hosts, Named Character Sections
[Tyrion's first job is defending Ulthuan. Teclis' first job is going around the other Order factions and propping them up.
Eltharion the Grim rampaged across the Badlands a few decades ago, utterly drenching himself in Greenskins blood, before realising how pointless that was and going home. This was in futile retaliation for Grom the Paunch.]

This was Part 1.
I will now go through Imrix's quest for the really deep Elven lore in part 2, and then the conclusion.

Edit: Although three expeditions every century isn't particularly fast for men, by Elven standards the HE are fighting a lot of battles in very short order.
 
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If you want Boney to go on a rant about the End Times, he can. He has before.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I think it's time we get as much info as we can about both High and Dark Elves, at least in book format. Any other races we haven't bought every books about, Lizards, Orges, Cathey, Warhammer Japan, undead Egypt, Ind?
 
the commands were programmed in by the creators so they can't really do anything too terrible

I actually agree with the idea that the Druchii are unlikely to fuck us over just for the sake of it, but I kinda wanna push back against this idea.

The commands of Linux were designed to be useful to someone running the OS, but that doesn't mean that typing sudo rm -r /* can't fuck your shit up.
 
That genuine knowledge is what really gives me the willies. There's only two groups that have access to Waystone Commands, the Druchii and the Asur. By going to the Druchii, we have demonstrated that we are unwilling to go to the Asur, since they would be the obvious choice. As such, our leverage in negotiations will be far from strong. That's not good when you consider that just about any piece of information we sell them will almost certainly be used maliciously.
This is a false dichotomy.
The Asur were never going to give us access to begin with. Thats why Laurelorn is sponsoring a human with what looks like a small chance of knowing The Thing to figure out Waystones.

In the absence of a third party at work, what happens when we go to the Asur and ask for Waystone commands is they lean on the Emperor to shut down the project. We know this already, thats why we're working with everyone ELSE and keeping it quiet.

Adding the Druchii to the options means that the Asur are faced with Laurelorn going ahead and using what the Druchii will give if the Asur don't play ball. Laurelorn has no intention of using Druchii stuff if they had a choice, they said so themselves - the Druchii are too untrustworthy to actually read into the project.

But it means that we have an implicit hanging threat that if the Asur cuts Laurelorn off hard, then for lack of a choice Laurelorn would simply have to align with Naggaroth. And since the Empire and Marienburg's tensions are escalating, the Asur have to consider that a win on Marienburg would have the Empire also be in favor of working with their rivals.

TLDR - the whole point of the Druchii being here is not to trade for Waystone codes, but to trade other lore, so that the Asur will be keenly aware that if they aren't willing to help, we'd find whoever is willing to.
 
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