Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Tobtorp said:
I personally find rite of way to be "neat" but not really something i would want as Mathildes defining spell...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I absolutely want Mathilde to make an Ulgu spell that turns the user into a shadow dragon or makes a thousand Ulgu-bound apparitions manifest and stomp the enemy or something.

But I honestly think RoW is perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if RoW gets her picked as Melkoth's replacement if he ever retires, because it's that good. Like, it's revolutionary -- really. The thread occasionally brings up trains, and how the Dwarves would never and could never make them bc they're all artisans, no mass-produced stuff. RoW is a train, unlimited by tracks but dependant on high level magic. It's a massive off-road vehicle. If there's ever another war with Marienburg, I guarantee that RoW will win Mathilde another boon. Yeah sure it's not flashy, but it doesn't need to be. This is the kind of spell that can change the tide of an entire war, if used judiciously.
 
xamaplak said:
I absolutely want Mathilde to make an Ulgu spell that turns the user into a shadow dragon or makes a thousand Ulgu-bound apparitions manifest and stomp the enemy or something.

But I honestly think RoW is perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if RoW gets her picked as Melkoth's replacement if he ever retires, because it's that good. Like, it's revolutionary -- really. The thread occasionally brings up trains, and how the Dwarves would never and could never make them bc they're all artisans, no mass-produced stuff. RoW is a train, unlimited by tracks but dependant on high level magic. It's a massive off-road vehicle. If there's ever another war with Marienburg, I guarantee that RoW will win Mathilde another boon. Yeah sure it's not flashy, but it doesn't need to be. This is the kind of spell that can change the tide of an entire war, if used judiciously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's "Wait, how did those demigryph knights get through that swamp so fast and end up in our backline?" the spell.
 
xamaplak said:
I absolutely want Mathilde to make an Ulgu spell that turns the user into a shadow dragon or makes a thousand Ulgu-bound apparitions manifest and stomp the enemy or something.

But I honestly think RoW is perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if RoW gets her picked as Melkoth's replacement if he ever retires, because it's that good. Like, it's revolutionary -- really. The thread occasionally brings up trains, and how the Dwarves would never and could never make them bc they're all artisans, no mass-produced stuff. RoW is a train, unlimited by tracks but dependant on high level magic. It's a massive off-road vehicle. If there's ever another war with Marienburg, I guarantee that RoW will win Mathilde another boon. Yeah sure it's not flashy, but it doesn't need to be. This is the kind of spell that can change the tide of an entire war, if used judiciously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's neat if You can continuously cast it. Otherwise it's neat and deadly... Like, we make it work because of our staff otherwise everytime we cast it we risk the chance of something bad happening.
 
xamaplak said:
I absolutely want Mathilde to make an Ulgu spell that turns the user into a shadow dragon or makes a thousand Ulgu-bound apparitions manifest and stomp the enemy or something.

But I honestly think RoW is perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if RoW gets her picked as Melkoth's replacement if he ever retires, because it's that good. Like, it's revolutionary -- really. The thread occasionally brings up trains, and how the Dwarves would never and could never make them bc they're all artisans, no mass-produced stuff. RoW is a train, unlimited by tracks but dependant on high level magic. It's a massive off-road vehicle. If there's ever another war with Marienburg, I guarantee that RoW will win Mathilde another boon. Yeah sure it's not flashy, but it doesn't need to be. This is the kind of spell that can change the tide of an entire war, if used judiciously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Trains have strategic logistic implications, in the hands of anyone not named Mathilde RoW is at best tactical. Still good, but not revolutionary.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
"This spell is extremely useful. It can drop a fully armed combatant at 50 feet from total surprise."

"That's so cool Master! That seems like a specific example though. Is there a story behind it?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"I have inducted you into some of the lesser secrets, you are not ready for what you have asked about. Now be seated and I shall tell you of the tragedy of Frederick Van Hal."
Sinsystems said:
As soon as we can we should also teach her shadow steed, it is such a useful spell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
One of the wisest choices the playerbase made was to pick the "Shadowsteed and Arcane Armor" spell option at the start of the quest.
---
Anyway, I am also in favour of a Larenlorn diplo action. Preferably with Johann if reasonably possible. You know what they say; "if you going to bring a wizard to diplomatic meeting, none shine with more lustre than a Gold!"
Tobtorp said:
It's neat if You can continuously cast it. Otherwise it's neat and deadly... Like, we make it work because of our staff otherwise everytime we cast it we risk the chance of something bad happening.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As a low-end Battle Magic spell, it might be possible to for someone to enchant it into an Altar with an array of powerstones.
Fouredged Sword said:
Actually, something that would be an easier spell and perhaps still useful would be a cloak of silence for our gyrocopter. Make the damned thing run silent.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm still gunning for Adela with help (via some Dwarven favour trading paid for with AV) to work to make a secondary boiler that can be plugged in/removed, that is attached to her long-term-flame spell/enchanment
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
It's neat if You can continuously cast it. Otherwise it's neat and deadly... Like, we make it work because of our staff otherwise everytime we cast it we risk the chance of something bad happening.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I can see that, if it's cast by an 'average' Grey Magister -- but in the hands of Grey Battle Wizards, with the right preparation, I believe Mathilde's feats could be emulated, if not replicated. I might be a bit too enthusiastic, and it's clear neither of us are going to convince the other and that's fine, but I do believe that RoW is like, perfect for Mathilde.

Plus, if Mathilde's really the only one that can use it the way she does, then that really could make it her signature spell.

I have an entire rant about logistics and the fog of war itching to go after I watched & read a bunch of accounts of American paratroopers in WWII, but I'll spare the thread from that. But I will say, even if non-Mathildes only end up being able to use RoW for really bad bits? Still kickass. In a Marienburg situation it'd still be valuable.

And I will say, while it may be possible to have big flashy battle-changing combat spells with Ulgu, RoW seems more on-brand. It's not a fireball with the force of a nuclear explosion, but used properly it's still brutal. And kunnin'.
 
AsuraAtlas said:
In term's of what to teach Eike, I think we have to consider that she's been said to have a very similar "apprentice personality" and statline as we did. In other words, one of our major focuses should be on the things that gave us the most trouble.

What I'm saying is, we have to teach Eike how to write a good academic paper.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So we get Max to teach her how to write papers? Because he is the expert Mathilde has on call.
 
Didn't Sun Tzu write, like, an entire chapter or something on mastery of battlefield terrain? Honestly, Rite of Way, in the hands of actual, trained, professional Battle Wizards—and it doesn't matter how many BM spells Mathilde learns, she'll never be a "true" Battle Wizard—would be absolutely game changing.

In-universe historical example—the battle that slew Asavar Kul, during the Great War against Chaos, was won because Kul's army was surrounded on three sides—Magnus, half the Imperial Army, and the Colleges from the front, the dwarves from the flank, and the other half of the Imperial Army from the rear. But how did the Imperial Army get to the rear? Well, they'd initially been sent by Magnus to reinforce Praag, but once they had heard that Praag had fallen, they turned around and marched back to Kislev City as fast as they could. This got them back just in time to catch the Chaos army in a devastating pincer attack from which Kul could not escape from.

Now, the forces of Order got lucky there—if the Imperial army had been slower, or had not decided to turn back, then Kul could have fled to fight another day. Hell, Kul was actually winning at that point—his forces were spilling into Kislev city, Magnus was on the defensive, half of the Dwarves had died trying to break out of the city, Yrtle was dead—and then over the crest of the rise known as the Hill of Heroes the literal cavalry arrived. The whole situation can be described as miraculous—a miracle that Rite of Way promises to reliably deliver when and where it's needed.

Sure, it's not flashy or devastating like Pit or Pendulum—but logistics wins wars, and making sure the right people are in the right place at the right time will change the course of history.

Rite of Way is amazingly representative of Mathlde's approach—it's subtle, easy to overlook, and requires a lot of running around in the background getting all the right levers and gears into place, but once it is set up it allows for her to apply maximum pressure to the weakest vulnerability, with terrifying results.

Pit of Shades will the win the battle. Rite of Way will win the entire damn campaign.
 
I never said it's useless, but the problem is that rite of way is only useful for either long distances or for obstacles that are uncrossable normally and are relatively short. The second one is a excellent use case and will probably help but the first one is the actual revolutionary shit and it's just not applicable if you can't cast it safely and continuously.
 
Tobtorp said:
I never said it's useless, but the problem is that rite of way is only useful for either long distances or for obstacles that are uncrossable normally and are relatively short. The second one is a excellent use case and will probably help but the first one is the actual revolutionary shit and it's just not applicable if you can't cast it safely and continuously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Battle Wizards often get traits that allow them to cast BM with less risk.

Never no risks, but definitely less.
 
LightLan said:
Battle Wizards often get traits that allow them to cast BM with less risk.

Never no risks, but definitely less.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cool and not all bw get the same trait. Because it's definitely not "you get a -1 difficulty to all bm level spells." It's more in the direction of "you get a -1 difficulty for spells involving shadows." (Which is what we have from our staff.

Assuming that BW all can cast day in day out is just not realistic and so using rite of way as a "train" (which it isn't even if cast like that) is just not viable.
 
LightLan said:
Battle Wizards often get traits that allow them to cast BM with less risk.

Never no risks, but definitely less.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You could see it like driving a car. Every time you go in one intending to travel, there is a chance, however small, that you'd get into an accident. The more skilled and aware you are, the less likely you're to get into an accident. But even the best driver in the world can be caught off guard.

You can even extend the metaphor in comparing crowded streets/rush hour to areas with high magical confluence, but that'd be getting too into the weeds.
 
Tobtorp said:
I never said it's useless, but the problem is that rite of way is only useful for either long distances or for obstacles that are uncrossable normally and are relatively short. The second one is a excellent use case and will probably help but the first one is the actual revolutionary shit and it's just not applicable if you can't cast it safely and continuously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Battle Wizards. Like I get what you're saying, but Battle Wizards. Instead of journeying they majored in spells that can kill you if you cast wrong, they spend their downtime mastering WMD spells and figuring out how to cast them more efficiently. All battle magic had downsides, as was pointed out by other ppl, and ofc the person who created the spell is going to be the best at it, but Battle Wizards. It's their job. Not all of them will be amazing at RoW, but there's multiple. At least 5, is a safe guess? I don't think it'd be crazy to say there could be 20. Let's say there's 20 Gray Battle Wizards, and 5 of them can cast it continuously on a near-Mathilde level. That's wonderful, Even if they need a staff like Mathilde's, they can get one with a similar effect, because they're Battle Wizards.
 
Tobtorp said:
Cool and not all bw get the same trait. Because it's definitely not "you get a -1 difficulty to all bm level spells." It's more in the direction of "you get a -1 difficulty for spells involving shadows." (Which is what we have from our staff.

Assuming that BW all can cast day in day out is just not realistic and so using rite of way as a "train" (which it isn't even if cast like that) is just not viable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am pretty sure Rite of Way is still in development though. Pretty sure we can make it easier.

But what we REALLY need to do is make a magic item powered by a shadow powerstone. Put it on a unit banner. Let it lay down road wherever the army needs to go.
 
Tobtorp said:
I never said it's useless, but the problem is that rite of way is only useful for either long distances or for obstacles that are uncrossable normally and are relatively short. The second one is a excellent use case and will probably help but the first one is the actual revolutionary shit and it's just not applicable if you can't cast it safely and continuously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm going to assume that actual Battle Wizards can cast... I'm not going to use the word "safely" here, because it's battle magic, but definitely reliably. Mathilde cheats because she has her staff that makes casting certain spells easier, and I'm sure Battle Wizards have similar cheats—through traits, skills, gear etc—that lets them cast it reliably. Melkoth is able to cast his signature spell as a party trick, without having to worry about miscasts, because he has traits that make it easier for him. Anyone who's throwing around battle magic should be able to cast Rite of Way—and if they can't, they probably shouldn't be throwing around battle magic.
 
We literally have word of boney that anything called battle magic can not be cast reliably.

Boney said:
Because that's the criteria used to draw the line: if it can be cast reliably, it's not Battle Magic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it's bm it's not viable to be cast reliable. We cheat with a staff.

Edit: and the more often you cast something the higher the chance you fuck up. Now how often do you think one needs to cast rite of way to even move a detachment over any significant range?
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
We literally have word of boney that anything called battle magic can not be cast reliably.


If it's bm it's not viable to be cast reliable. We cheat with a staff.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, nobody is refuting that. What we're arguing is that actual, professional Battle Wizards, who have spent their entire lives training their bodies, minds, and souls to handle battle magic, also have cheats, and that they will have more cheats than Mathilde, a person who's barely dipped her toe into battle magic, will ever obtain.

We've seen evidence of one of these cheats in quest already, with Melkoth able to cast MMM like it's a cantrip. It is not out of the question to assume that there will be more cheats that make it so Battle Wizards can cast consistently and reliably.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Yes, nobody is refuting that. What we're arguing is that actual, professional Battle Wizards, who have spent their entire lives training their bodies, minds, and souls to handle battle magic, also have cheats, and that they will have more cheats than Mathilde, a person who's barely dipped her toe into battle magic, will ever obtain.

We've seen evidence of one of these cheats in quest already, with Melkoth able to cast MMM like it's a cantrip. It is not out of the question to assume that there will be more cheats that make it so Battle Wizards can cast consistently and reliably.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then let me quote you something from the same post .
Boney said:
The chance of losing control of it can be reduced to very low levels by piling on enough skill and experience and power and insight, but it's asymptotic, you can always reduce it further but you can never completely eliminate it, because you're not just fighting magic at that point, you're fighting Chaos.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There is no way to reduce it to zero without a staff, and we cannot mass produce the staff.
 
I refuse to believe that whatever advantages allow for Mathilde to cast Rite of Way semi-reliably cannot be replicated or surpassed by the actual professional battle wizards who have dedicated their lives to this
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top