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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
In the Dwarf Warrior box during 6th Edition, a lot of the models were holding long poles so you could choose whether you wanted them to be holding hammers or axes. This also made it really difficult to tell which one was supposed to be the standard bearer, and I ended up guessing incorrectly. The standard ended up on the pole of a Dwarf that was very clearly mid-swing, so it looked like he was about to bash someone on the head with it.

The actual standard bearer pole I ended up mistakenly putting an axe head on the end of, which made it look like a halberd. But I ended up liking the effect because the standard pole was held in the left hand, letting me give him a crossbow as well - back then there weren't separate models for Quarrellers (they weren't even called that then, just 'Crossbowmen'), the Warrior box just came with a sprue of crossbows. I ended up using that model as a Thane, and his halberd is why a vault full of polearms was a possibility when Karag Lhune was recaptured, and now the Undumgi are armed with them.
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God I really wish I owned that model, he'd be fuckin hilarious to say 'it was the standard bearer who killed your character/monster'. My bud would laugh and rage his head off at the same time.
 
Boney said:
In the Dwarf Warrior box during 6th Edition, a lot of the models were holding long poles so you could choose whether you wanted them to be holding hammers or axes. This also made it really difficult to tell which one was supposed to be the standard bearer, and I ended up guessing incorrectly. The standard ended up on the pole of a Dwarf that was very clearly mid-swing, so it looked like he was about to bash someone on the head with it.

The actual standard bearer pole I ended up mistakenly putting an axe head on the end of, which made it look like a halberd. But I ended up liking the effect because the standard pole was held in the left hand, letting me give him a crossbow as well - back then there weren't separate models for Quarrellers (they weren't even called that then, just 'Crossbowmen'), the Warrior box just came with a sprue of crossbows. I ended up using that model as a Thane, and his halberd is why a vault full of polearms was a possibility when Karag Lhune was recaptured, and now the Undumgi are armed with them.
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The lovely thing I find about building these models is that I find myself making justifications and stories behind why the model ends up looking the way it does. I made one of the models look upwards to the left way too hard, and the model was leaning backwards precariously with an odd pose. So I put the Kurnoth's animal companion on one of the upwards branches in the direction the Kurnoth was looking, and the companion was also looking upwards, to create a narrative about the Kurnoth being distracted. Perhaps by the beauty of nature. Perhaps because the enemy is performing a flanking maneuver. Perhaps because an enemy is at high elevation or flying. Or perhaps because they're thinking about all the chipmunks they left at home and if they're eating well.

I created similar stories for all the silly little mistakes I made. Like the front facing Kurnoth's legs looking like that because they saw a digitigrade animal in the wilds and wanted to emulate it, or maybe they needed to turn around in a hurry so instead of flipping their whole body they turned their hips straight backwards so they can run backwards. It's fun.

Speaking of my Kurnoth, I finished my Greatswords:
One of the models is leaning precariously, so I improvised and tried to make his motion dynamic by swapping one of his hands (which are supposed to hold the Greatsword) with a Bow hand, so it would look like he's swinging his sword in motion and his hand is catching up to grab it. If you look at the models from the back, it looks funny. Two of them are looking up and forward at the ready and one of them is lunging to the side on a wholly different purpose.

This is my full assembled collection right now:
I hope to expand it a lot more.
 
Boney said:
The actual standard bearer pole I ended up mistakenly putting an axe head on the end of, which made it look like a halberd. But I ended up liking the effect because the standard pole was held in the left hand, letting me give him a crossbow as well - back then there weren't separate models for Quarrellers (they weren't even called that then, just 'Crossbowmen'), the Warrior box just came with a sprue of crossbows. I ended up using that model as a Thane, and his halberd is why a vault full of polearms was a possibility when Karag Lhune was recaptured, and now the Undumgi are armed with them.
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I once read somewhere, I think it was a Gate quest, that in the local lore of the story, Dwarves were famed for their pike and shield formations which acted perfectly to counterbalance their short height and lack of reach compared to their larger enemies, which combined with their stout strength and resilience made them near-perfect pikemen. And something about that struck me, it's just the kind of thing that just makes perfect sense once you hear it. It doesn't have the same fantastic feel of an army of Dwarves wielding axes and hammers and swords, but I like the realism of identifying a problem and solving it with the tools available.

Truth be told, I think that the Dawi would be terrifying if they equipped themselves with halberds and other polearms more than they do, and it's likely only because of their history and traditions that they don't.
 
Zedman7054 said:
I once read somewhere, I think it was a Gate quest, that in the local lore of the story, Dwarves were famed for their pike and shield formations which acted perfectly to counterbalance their short height and lack of reach compared to their larger enemies, which combined with their stout strength and resilience made them near-perfect pikemen. And something about that struck me, it's just the kind of thing that just makes perfect sense once you hear it. It doesn't have the same fantastic feel of an army of Dwarves wielding axes and hammers and swords, but I like the realism of identifying a problem and solving it with the tools available.

Truth be told, I think that the Dawi would be terrifying if they equipped themselves with halberds and other polearms more than they do, and it's likely only because of their history and traditions that they don't.
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The most common enemy Dwarfs face is Skaven and Night Goblins- I'm not sure how much help pikes would be there.
 
Also, remember that dwarves are used to tunnel fighting, which complicates the idea of pike and shield formations because the pikes might not have room to turn.
 
Tunnel underground warfare does seem somewhat unfavorable to the polearm weapons.

Mathilde'd.
 
But having units for dealing with above ground combat would still be wise- which is how there was a huge pile of pikes sitting around in K8P, I suppose.
 
Zedman7054 said:
I once read somewhere, I think it was a Gate quest, that in the local lore of the story, Dwarves were famed for their pike and shield formations which acted perfectly to counterbalance their short height and lack of reach compared to their larger enemies, which combined with their stout strength and resilience made them near-perfect pikemen. And something about that struck me, it's just the kind of thing that just makes perfect sense once you hear it. It doesn't have the same fantastic feel of an army of Dwarves wielding axes and hammers and swords, but I like the realism of identifying a problem and solving it with the tools available.

Truth be told, I think that the Dawi would be terrifying if they equipped themselves with halberds and other polearms more than they do, and it's likely only because of their history and traditions that they don't.
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Pikes were also part of what the dwarves used in Battle of the Five Armies (the movie), which I thought was a very clever detail.
 
I'm sorry I don't have anything else to contribute, but I'm burning with inspiration. Here are three more Kurnoths, this time with Scythe:
I messed up with the positioning of one of the arms, probably because it's some complex and fiddly stuff. I improvised and adjusted the position to make it look like he was instead assuming a Javelin throwing pose, because one of his feet were already off the ground so I could do it with some fiddling. I wanted to adjust his other arm to be pointing forwards to compliment the image, but the structure of the pieces made it impossible to have the left arm facing up. So now he's just extending his arm palm up like he's challenging someone. Somehow, little things like this give me so much inspiration for creating the "character" of the model.

Also, I messed up with the basing for one of the models, and since it kept leaning forward, I used a snake as a stepping stone to adjust the model to a reasonable pose that wasn't leaning too much. Snakes are useful.
 
Also, thinking on it- most of a Throng is made up of militia, I'm pretty sure?

Pretty sure an effective pikewall would depend on a lot of drill and training, most Dwarf Warriors have day-jobs.

I think pikes would have to be exclusive to Warrior Clans to begin with.
 
Mopman43 said:
The most common enemy Dwarfs face is Skaven and Night Goblins- I'm not sure how much help pikes would be there.
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I mean, some of the oldest traditional enemies of the Dawi are Trolls, who were one of their first enemies, Orcs, who are bigger than them, Beastmen and Fimir, and then they also fight other enemies like elves, humans in all their many flavors (Chaos, Vampire, Undead, normal), and...well that's actually probably it. Really, outside of skaven and goblins, the Dawi don't fight many enemies in the same height-range. And even then, the advantages pikes (long spears) have include ridiculous range for a melee weapons. That is a boon to fighting anyone and everything besides those that are ridiculously (I'm thinking like 75%) smaller than you.

Something to keep in mind is that when you fight in actual warfare, it's not like it portrayed in movies. Total War has it surprisingly right, soldiers would keep in formations, poking and prodding each other, not engaging into a massive free-for-all where everyone is scattered across the battlefield, fighting duels in the dust and fire. Spear formations give soldiers a simple, easy to use weapon, that gives them range over most other weapons, and that's when it's just human vs human. A spear, pike, or halberd in the hands of a Dwarf might give them an extra two to five feet of range to hit an enemy. They would also likely have a sidearm, in the case for a Dwarf, likely an ax, for if they lose their weapon, or if it breaks, or they just decide to switch to it.

Don't underestimate the power of stick long enough to hit someone while keeping them from hitting you.
 
Zedman7054 said:
I mean, some of the oldest traditional enemies of the Dawi are Trolls, who were one of their first enemies, Orcs, who are bigger than them, Beastmen and Fimir, and then they also fight other enemies like elves, humans in all their many flavors (Chaos, Vampire, Undead, normal), and...well that's actually probably it. Really, outside of skaven and goblins, the Dawi don't fight many enemies in the same height-range. And even then, the advantages pikes (long spears) have include ridiculous range for a melee weapons. That is a boon to fighting anyone and everything besides those that are ridiculously (I'm thinking like 75%) smaller than you.

Something to keep in mind is that when you fight in actual warfare, it's not like it portrayed in movies. Total War has it surprisingly right, soldiers would keep in formations, poking and prodding each other, not engaging into a massive free-for-all where everyone is scattered across the battlefield, fighting duels in the dust and fire. Spear formations give soldiers a simple, easy to use weapon, that gives them range over most other weapons, and that's when it's just human vs human. A spear, pike, or halberd in the hands of a Dwarf might give them an extra two to five feet of range to hit an enemy. They would also likely have a sidearm, in the case for a Dwarf, likely an ax, for if they lose their weapon, or if it breaks, or they just decide to switch to it.

Don't underestimate the power of stick long enough to hit someone while keeping them from hitting you.
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Certainly for above-ground battles, everyone using a pike would have its advantages. But when trying to destroy a skaven or Grobi tunnel or the like, probably the most common form of warfare for the Dwarfs, a pike probably just doesn't have the turning radius. And a pike army requires a whole block of pike, not just one pike, which means you need to train a whole bunch of pikemmen in a style useless for tunnel fighting and which breaks the whole rule that dwarven weapons not just be weapons (and that rule isn't just a religious taboo, its also just a consequence of that dwarfs don't like expending time training for things which aren't their job, which, for most fighting dwarfs, it isn't!),.

There might be significant advantages to pikes, of course. But there are drawbacks which do matter to the Dwarfs, for good reasons.
 
Mopman43 said:
Also, thinking on it- most of a Throng is made up of militia, I'm pretty sure?

Pretty sure an effective pikewall would depend on a lot of drill and training, most Dwarf Warriors have day-jobs.

I think pikes would have to be exclusive to Warrior Clans to begin with.
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Aura said:
Certainly for above-ground battles, everyone using a pike would have its advantages. But when trying to destroy a skaven or Grobi tunnel or the like, probably the most common form of warfare for the Dwarfs, a pike probably just doesn't have the turning radius. And a pike army requires a whole block of pike, not just one pike, which means you need to train a whole bunch of pikemmen in a style useless for tunnel fighting and which breaks the whole rule that dwarven weapons not just be weapons (and that rule isn't just a religious taboo, its also just a consequence of that dwarfs don't like expending time training for things which aren't their job, which, for most fighting dwarfs, it isn't!),.

There might be significant advantages to pikes, of course. But there are drawbacks which do matter to the Dwarfs, for good reasons.
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The spear, and thus most of it's permutations like the pike although I would leave out the halberd in this case, are simple weapons that can be easily trained with. It's one of the (many) reasons that spears were the standard weapon for human warfare for centuries in our world, they are a weapon that has a low skill floor (meaning that they easy to learn to use). Shield and spear formations would be something that Dwarves would have to be trained for yes, but surely they already take time out of their days to train in formations so they can be ready just in case the call for the Throng goes out, it would just be one more thing added to the schedule, if it was added.

Arguably the greatest argument against Dawi pikedwarves is their traditionalist view on weapons. They don't like dedicated weapons like the sword, instead they prefer tools that be used to cut down a tree or an orc in equal measure, or a hammer that can split stone as well as skulls. EDIT: Because I forgot, the spear could still be considered as a tool that is a weapon as well. Humans have long used spears as hunting implements, to catch fish and most land-based animals for food. Although I've never heard of Dwarves hunting for food, so the spear is unlikely to have been developed by them in that capacity.

This isn't an argument to start supporting Dawi to take up pikes, but mearly an observation on how they could be effective weapons in the hands of Dwarves.
 
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Mopman43 said:
The most common enemy Dwarfs face is Skaven and Night Goblins- I'm not sure how much help pikes would be there.
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Againsts skaven not that much, considering their ranged options. But i see value in a pike shieldwall in broad, long halls of underway terminals.

It would be shit for fighting in twisting and turning caves, but for holding a dwarf made chokepoint? I can hardly imagine better cold weapon than spear.
 
There's a tidbit of lore that says Wutroth nuts were used by primitive dwarfs as ammunition for hunting slings.
I think it's pretty neat (though probably non-quest canon compatible).
 
IronFist said:
The dwarf hunter-gatherer period is so distant that it has faded away from even dwarven memory.
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If they did, it would have been in the time before Valaya, Grungni, et al, and thus would likely reference Gods or deities incompatible with Dwarven worship of the Ancestors. It's possible that there was a time like that which was deliberately forgotten as the Karaz Ankor focused on worshipping the Ancestors.
 
Mopman43 said:
Also, thinking on it- most of a Throng is made up of militia, I'm pretty sure?

Pretty sure an effective pikewall would depend on a lot of drill and training, most Dwarf Warriors have day-jobs.

I think pikes would have to be exclusive to Warrior Clans to begin with.
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The hoplites from the Greek city-states of the classical period were basically militiamen. Appart from the Spartans, they had a day job and trained on the side to fight in the phalanx. Dwarfs have much longer lives, they could become very proficient at fighting in formation using polearms and pikes. Elves can do it, but maybe the Dawi don't think they're able to best them? :V
 
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The OOC reality is that Dwarfs use axes and hammers for the sake of the aesthetic and traditional fantasy tropes. The best IC explanation people have come up with IMO is a cultural tradition of using tools in both war and peace.

The REAL answer is that Dwarfs work in a combat binary. They either kill you from so far away that you are a speck or they kill you from close enough that you can see the fury on their face as they cut you down like wheat during harvest.

Ignore those silverine pikes they found in K8P, those are obviously gifts meant for the Asur that got made right as the War of Vengeance kicked off spoils of war. :^V (I don't actually know if that's true it's been a while)
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Pikes were also part of what the dwarves used in Battle of the Five Armies (the movie), which I thought was a very clever detail.
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The sequence where the dwarves disengage from the elves to setup a shield wall with pikes facing the orcs was some of the best stuff I've seen about dwarves in fantasy media. Seeing that in WHF would be a treat.

PS: It still makes me so upset when the Elves jump over the spear wall in the Hobbit: BO5A. Just…god. Makes me mad.
 
DragonParadox said:
Universal power is me overstating it true, but they do claim pervasive ability. The Lady for instance claims to protect all of Bretonia

Mousillon peasant seeing their neighbor being carried off screaming by ghouls knowing they work for the local lord: I'm not seeing no Lady protecting us

Any place where the vampires rule is a place where the order of the modern gods failed. If I may borrow an Khemetic concept Ma'at is dead, or if you will the divine right of kings and lords has failed and been made a mockery
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She is however the goddess of chivalry and is not exactly concerned with peasants. Unless they're chivalrous peasants or something.
Wasn't there a sheperdress who *Googles* Ah yes. Repanse de Lyonasse sauce.

What's the current date?
 
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