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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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To be honest I don't much like the notion of a non-human vampire, especially not in such an unceremonious manner. We could always make elf vampires, surprise!

Night's Dark Masters claims that vampires were just to prejudiced to make non-human fledglings, but that just makes no sense to me, all vampires shared in this prejudice? Really even the insane Necrarchs? You know the people who manage to do experiments so horrific they sometimes manage to end their unlives on accident, none of those thought of what would happen if they gave the blood kiss to an elf? Sure you could claim they did and then they destroyed the results, but that presupposes a lot of laboratory safety. Then of course there are all sorts of other neurosis that could lead to a non-human being made into a vampire, say a Blood Dragon who gets almost beaten on the field by a dwarf warrior or a Lahmian who falls in love with an elf. As Zlata shows humans are really quite capable to see elf beauty in that light.
 
I'd just make it so human mutability is a necessary ingredient in turning into a vampire. Easy as if what you want is to make vampirism human-only.
 
Codex said:
The truly baffling thing about 4th Edition is the ridiculous level of detail and work the authors have put in developing Reikland. It's basically the "Reikland Edition". And while that infuriates me to a certain degree, I can't help but respect the sheer level of work they've done to develop Reikland. I found this map of Ubersreik on Artstation, it's an official Gamemaster one, and my brain hurts looking at it:
As a side note, maybe my brain is being weird, but the Duchy of Ubersreik's borders makes it look sort of like Texas.
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I see the 2e gazetteers are just completely out the window, that's fun. And it seems that 'Barony' and 'County' and 'Duchy' are being used arbitrarily and interchangeably, that is... also fun. Do I see a duchy subordinate to another duchy? How much fun this is.
 
Finally finished binging this quest. Good fun, great work all around, I wonder if Morbs and Vitae would break the favour system for the Colleges like all our quests did with dwarfs.
 
Boney said:
I see the 2e gazetteers are just completely out the window, that's fun. And it seems that 'Barony' and 'County' and 'Duchy' are being used arbitrarily and interchangeably, that is... also fun. Do I see a duchy subordinate to another duchy? How much fun this is.
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Maybe the barons just put their castles on a really really high ledge? (or copied a certain someone and used an airship castle for maximum rules lawyering.)

...but seriously yeah, I noticed that too, and you have my sympathy there
 
Boney said:
I see the 2e gazetteers are just completely out the window, that's fun. And it seems that 'Barony' and 'County' and 'Duchy' are being used arbitrarily and interchangeably, that is... also fun. Do I see a duchy subordinate to another duchy? How much fun this is.
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It's not completely out the Window. A lot of the stuff they have is inspired by 2E's stuff, except... expanded. By a lot. And yes, I was also confused at all the Baronies, Duchies and Counties that are all subordinate to the Duchy of Ubersreik, which is the only Fiefdom there that is an actual Reikland Estate (directly subordinate to Elector Count, the other Fiefdoms are subordinate to the Duke of Ubersreik) in there.

The thing about 4E... It takes some getting used to.
 
Boney said:
I see the 2e gazetteers are just completely out the window, that's fun. And it seems that 'Barony' and 'County' and 'Duchy' are being used arbitrarily and interchangeably, that is... also fun. Do I see a duchy subordinate to another duchy? How much fun this is.
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The Empire's feudal structure is pretty administratively nightmarish, yes. If it makes you feel better, it was Andy Law who made that map.
 
Codex said:
It's pretty hard to keep all the Andys in check. I saw Andy Hoare, Andy Hall and Andy Law and my brain checked out by that point.
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Andy Law has been around since at least WFRP 1e and was essentially the THE cartography guy while he was working for GW.
<NEW MAP FROM GW!>
Now, as many of you know, I've been mapping the Old World place professionally for over 15 years.

It started with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition (WFRP2) and I never looked back. My work most recently appearing in WFRP4, a game I also co-designed and produced for Cubicle 7.

Over the years, I've mapped all manner of Warhammer (and 40K) goodies for GW and other companies, with my work appearing in novels, background books, computer games, and elsewhere.
[...]
To help me complete all this mappy goodness, I built my 'master map'. This is an always-updating, behind-the-scenes reference for the Empire. It draws from every location I could find in every GW product released, be that White Dwarfs, Black Library novels, licensed computer games, comics, rpgs, card games, or anything else. From Warhammer Fantasy Battle 1E to Warhammer 8E, it's all in there. Or, at least, all I've found so far.

Over the last decade and a half, the master map got... big, and has been discussed many times on this blog.
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So that Ubersreik map? You can be sure that that's absolutely, exactly how it's supposed to be.
 
Glancing at the wiki, it looks like they've homogenised some of the titles—Black Rock is ruled by a Pfalzgraf (german for Count-Palantine), Widows Vale has an actual Count-Palantine, Grauwerk, Graustadt, and Grunewald Lodge all have Stewards, Grey Lady Pass has a Marquis, Upper Teufel has an Arch-Duke, and the Baron of Graustadt is also the Magistrate of Ubersreik.

This is all from 3rd edition, apparently.

So from what I can see the Pfalzgraf and the Arch-Duke have become Dukes, the Stewards are now Barons, and the Count-Palantine is just a Count.
 
Alitur said:
Finally finished binging this quest. Good fun, great work all around, I wonder if Morbs and Vitae would break the favour system for the Colleges like all our quests did with dwarfs.
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I am actually semi-serious about this, btw. Mathilde managing to do something Teclis couldn't or wouldn't twice (thrice if Web-Mat succeeds) should skyrocket her popularity. Also might force one of the High elves to show up. Especially if we take "fuck Druchii (I think that's how their name's spelled), all my homies hate Druchii" option.
 
Alitur said:
I am actually semi-serious about this, btw. Mathilde managing to do something Teclis couldn't or wouldn't twice (thrice if Web-Mat succeeds) should skyrocket her popularity. Also might force one of the High elves to show up. Especially if we take "fuck Druchii (I think that's how their name's spelled), all my homies hate Druchii" option.
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We're expecting the first round of Orbs to rake in tons of favour, and subsequent rounds to rake in less because they're pretty limited in use versus just using multiple regular Power Stones. Our Reputation is probably going to get a huge boost, though
 
Deathbybunnies said:
We're expecting the first round of Orbs to rake in tons of favour, and subsequent rounds to rake in less because they're pretty limited in use versus just using multiple regular Power Stones. Our Reputation is probably going to get a huge boost, though
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Aren't the Orbs limited in use because they are so rare? If we address that problem I believe that new uses for them will appear.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
Aren't the Orbs limited in use because they are so rare? If we address that problem I believe that new uses for them will appear.
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There's nothing they can be used for that several Power Stones can't be used to replace, except specifically the old Battle Altars that were built to accept exactly Orbs. They don't do anything qualitatively different except fit with old legacy ports.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
There's nothing they can be used for that several Power Stones can't be used to replace, except specifically the old Battle Altars that were built to accept exactly Orbs. They don't do anything qualitatively different except fit with old legacy ports.
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Boney's statement is that Orbs of Sorcery are a lot easier to use for big things than complicated arrays of Powerstones.

There's definitely value in being able to reduce the points of failure on your big fancy Magic thing.
 
I mean, how much access do Vampires typically have to Elves in non big battle scenarios? Not a lot.

It just seems more convenient to turn Humans to Vampires then anything else. There are enough Dawi and Halflings around, but .... honestly Dawi might immediately turn to stone if turned into a vampire, so sort of the only option is Halflings. In which case .... can't blame the Vampires for usually sticking with humans.
 
On the subject of nonhuman vampires, Boney has made a very interesting post about it in the past:
Boney said:
On top of existing largely within human society and therefore human recruitment candidates are easiest to find and have an easier time blending in once they're recruited, there's also the fact that the typical Vampire has no interest in creating their own nemesis. When they make a new Vampire they typically want a tool that will be powerful, but always slightly less powerful than they are. So a human Vampire recruiting a human Vampire works great - they grow in power as they get older, but at the same rate as their progenitor, so barring exceptional circumstances they will never be able to catch up. Mannfred forever being stuck in Vlad's shadow illustrates this perfectly.

But an Elf? A Dwarf? A Skaven? Sure, it would be a waste of effort if a human Vampire went to the trouble of arranging a non-human recruitment candidate and found out that the newly-turned Vampire had the same or worse affinity for undeath as a much easier to acquire human recruit would have. Complete waste of time, next time just get a human. But what if they're better? What if they adapt to undeath faster than a human does? What if them catching up to their progenitor and eventually outstripping them was inevitable? That's a nightmare scenario. Being a Vampire means you get to leave behind the creeping awareness of mortality and the inevitability of ageing and eventually dying. But creating something that grows in power faster than you do brings all of that right back, and I doubt there's many Vampires that would relish the return of those sensations.

Vampirism is the ultimate immutable hierarchy. Every level down from the Progenitors adds one more step removed from the Elixir of Life and a vast gulf of time and experience. But if a nonhuman Vampire adapts to undeath and grows in strength even a fraction faster than baseline humanity does, suddenly every Vampire has a countdown until they're no longer top of the food chain. Why risk that when they can just take another century to accumulate power in tried and tested ways instead?
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tl;dr: over infinitely long timescales, what matters is the scaling rate, and vampires have strong individual incentives to pick progeny that scale at the same rate as they do, and so turn other humans.
 
King Arthur said:
I mean, how much access do Vampires typically have to Elves in non big battle scenarios? Not a lot.

It just seems more convenient to turn Humans to Vampires then anything else. There are enough Dawi and Halflings around, but .... honestly Dawi might immediately turn to stone if turned into a vampire, so sort of the only option is Halflings. In which case .... can't blame the Vampires for usually sticking with humans.
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picklepikkl said:
On the subject of nonhuman vampires, Boney has made a very interesting post about it in the past:

tl;dr: over infinitely long timescales, what matters is the scaling rate, and vampires have strong individual incentives to pick progeny that scale at the same rate as they do, and so turn other humans.
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I agree that it isn't standard practice for vampires to turn non-humans, that it's difficult to find subjects and that it doesn't happen often. But not ever, not once in thousands of years? That's very implausible.
 
Boney said:
I see the 2e gazetteers are just completely out the window, that's fun. And it seems that 'Barony' and 'County' and 'Duchy' are being used arbitrarily and interchangeably, that is... also fun. Do I see a duchy subordinate to another duchy? How much fun this is.
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Devil's advocate: outside of the 'liberal' use of Barony, County and Duchy, I am absolutely fine with forth Ed throwing the 2e gazettes in The bin.

Even though 4e maps have not been consistent with older stuff, internally the 4e Ed maps and gazettes have been way, way better.

All the Provence maps fit together, all the city maps are scaled well to the province maps, and even the maps that 'add' to a Provences are very clear on where stuff goes. (Archives is very clear on what road you put the branch off of the great hospice and it's little village.)
 
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K von Carstein said:
I agree that it isn't standard practice for vampires to turn non-humans, that it's difficult to find subjects and that it doesn't happen often. But not ever, not once in thousands of years? That's very implausible.
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Vampires are a lot of things. Insane, stupid, assholes, insane etc* but even at their most coco for cocopuffs they all care about the freedom their power and immortality grants.

Even if turning a none-human into a vampire doesn't create a super vampire that'll ruin everything forever. It's still something they're very unlikely to be able to take back. Sure a Vampire can keep an eye on that pesky Halfling/Dwarf/Elf/Skaven or alternative Vampire skull... but can they do it forever? After all they can't keep it on their person. That'd feed it dhar. So it's sitting in their lair somewhere. A Lair that could be destroyed, or robbed or any number of things. A ticking time bomb that will eventually, because even the greatest vampires die every now and then*, unleash something you don't understand that will compete with you. That has a pretty solid chance of spreading.

Sure they might be weaker than you. But would you want to have to deal with that for the rest of eternity? Deal with the consequences of other Vampires learning that you unleashed these annoying little shits onto the world? Risk the possibility these new vampires might turn out vaguely sane and willing to work with mortals due to their diffrent psychology? Risk creating a being, especially if they somehow managed it with a dwarf, that might spent the rest of eternity obsessively hunting you down for cursing them?

It's really just not worth the risk to them and it's a risk all Vampires can understand. Because it's a risk tied to their fundamental way of life.

*Because Dhar makes you Stupid.
 
Leolu said:
Vampires are a lot of things. Insane, stupid, assholes, insane etc* but even at their most coco for cocopuffs they all care about the freedom their power and immortality grants.

Even if turning a none-human into a vampire doesn't create a super vampire that'll ruin everything forever. It's still something they're very unlikely to be able to take back. Sure a Vampire can keep an eye on that pesky Halfling/Dwarf/Elf/Skaven or alternative Vampire skull... but can they do it forever? After all they can't keep it on their person. That'd feed it dhar. So it's sitting in their lair somewhere. A Lair that could be destroyed, or robbed or any number of things. A ticking time bomb that will eventually, because even the greatest vampires die every now and then*, unleash something you don't understand that will compete with you. That has a pretty solid chance of spreading.

Sure they might be weaker than you. But would you want to have to deal with that for the rest of eternity? Deal with the consequences of other Vampires learning that you unleashed these annoying little shits onto the world? Risk the possibility these new vampires might turn out vaguely sane and willing to work with mortals due to their diffrent psychology? Risk creating a being, especially if they somehow managed it with a dwarf, that might spent the rest of eternity obsessively hunting you down for cursing them?

It's really just not worth the risk to them and it's a risk all Vampires can understand. Because it's a risk tied to their fundamental way of life.

*Because Dhar makes you Stupid.
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Sure you can take it back, it involves a torch and a drawer. Much of the above seems to hinge on the notion that most vampires fundamentally fear their fledglings and I do not think they do. When it comes to both vampire biology and their culture that prizes age over youth there should be at least some of them that think 'yeah that is worth a try'.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Devil's advocate: outside of the 'liberal' use of Barony, County and Duchy, I am absolutely find with forth Ed throwing the 2e gazettes in The bin.

Even though 4e maps have not been consistent with older stuff, internally the 4e Ed maps and gazettes have been way, way better.

All the Provence maps fit together, all the city maps are scaled well to the province maps, and even the maps that 'add' to a Provences are very clear on where stuff goes. (Archives is very clear on what road you put the branch off of the great hospice and it's little village.)
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The decisions they make are very likely good ones to make for the purposes of making an RPG, but from my entirely selfish perspective, I want 4e to stick to old canon because I've written 850k words in the old canon. Every change they make is going to propagate through the fandom and the wikis and create new headaches for me and for every other Warhammer QM that is going to start getting questions about what Sudenland is up to and whether they can send an envoy to the gnomes.
 
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