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What confused me most was the whole "Vorbergland" thing, which I couldn't remember being a thing in Reikland in 2E, until I found out that it means "Land in front of the Mountain" and referred to the general area in front of the Grey Mountains in Reikland that isn't infested with forests. At least it's not an independent province. It just used to be a Princedom during the Age of Three Emperors before Magnus told the Von Walfens to cut it out.
 
Mathilde's Orbs of Sorcery, Morbs, just providing a boatload of college favor would be a let down. I also don't think they will result in a Great Deed since Great Deeds seem more like something broadly important to the Empire as a whole and Morbs are narrowly important. I can see the Morbs providing a Major Boon payed by all Colleges together or Minor Boons payed individually by each College. A Minor Boon being something like a college's knowledge on a single topic such as how a single spell works or how their winds works with certain phenomenon like smoke or clouds. A Major Boon would be similar except provided by the colleges as a whole at a level similar to the Gold College teaching Mathilde how to bind apparitions, something like staff turning knowledge or knowledge on apparitions or something else all colleges have.
 
It being brushed under means it took effort to hide some of the information.

And like you mentioned, nobody likely even knew who the perpetrator was aside from maybe Egrimm's old master (forgot his name), let alone it's relevance in Heidi's con. And since nobody else knew all the relevant information, no effort was done to hide this thing being solved, thus it not being brushed under the carpet. It just got forgotten over time.

Actually Alric (Engrimm's bad boss) explicitly didn't know about Van Hauptman's identity and it was specifically called out as a potential weakness since he wasn't aware that the sacrifices would end one person sooner than expected. Mathilde only was aware since a spymaster working in Eagle Castle was deemed as part of the "need to know" group with most others part of the "not your business" group
 
i could see it being great deed worthy the first time we do it. Orbs of sorcery power empire war machines, and letting a bunch more of those be built/powered might well be enough benefit to the empire as a whole that it qualifies. Especially considering the previously non-reproducible nature of these things. Probably just a reasonably large chunk of favour if we do it a second time though.
 
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To be fair to gnomes they did at least already exist in Early Early canon, and theres good justification with them being stealth experts for most people not knowing of them outside of close contacts, etc. same with Naiads and Elemental Incranates were more recent than that, I see a lot of 4th RPG Edition chages trying to bring back elements that they thought should have been reworked instead of killed off.

Messing with geography though? yeah I'm not a fan of that either, at least outside of barely developed places like Araby, Kislev, Cathay, etc.
Why mess with reikland this much though? I get that, it was already a well developed locale.
 
To be fair to gnomes they did at least already exist in Early Early canon, and theres good justification with them being stealth experts for most people not knowing of them outside of close contacts, etc. same with Naiads and Elemental Incranates were more recent than that, I see a lot of 4th RPG Edition chages trying to bring back elements that they thought should have been reworked instead of killed off.

Messing with geography though? yeah I'm not a fan of that either, at least outside of barely developed places like Araby, Kislev, Cathay, etc.
Why mess with reikland this much though? I get that, it was already a well developed locale.
They didn't mess with the Geography. The Geography is mostly similar, given it was made by the guy who invented the geography in the first place, it was expanded. Significantly. Boney's distress is at the Gazeteer changing significantly and at the fact that words are being used interchangably against their meaning making it much more confusing. The actual map is solid once you take a glance at it, and I would expect that considering who made it.
 
They didn't mess with the Geography. The Geography is mostly similar, given it was made by the guy who invented the geography in the first place, it was expanded. Significantly. Boney's distress is at the Gazeteer changing significantly and at the fact that words are being used interchangably against their meaning making it much more confusing. The actual map is solid once you take a glance at it, and I would expect that considering who made it.
I think his larger issue is the political shake-up 4th edition has, like a reborn Solland named Sudenland.
 
i could see it being great deed worthy the first time we do it. Orbs or sorcery power empire war machines, and letting a bunch more of those be built/powered might well be enough benefit to the empire as a whole that it qualifies. Especially considering the previously non-reproducible nature of these things. Probably just a reasonably large chunk of favour if we do it a second time though.
Going by one established precedent of Great Deed-dom, it could depend on how much the ability to deploy 8 additional Battle Altars while not risking losing a no longer irreplaceable artifact would cut down on the need to deploy the Imperial Army. Maybe we could even get two Great Deeds out of it if the math lines up, for those of use who want to go library scouring or with other potential rewards on our minds.[/boundless optimism]

Griffon

Mathilde's Orbs of Sorcery, Morbs, just providing a boatload of college favor would be a let down. I also don't think they will result in a Great Deed since Great Deeds seem more like something broadly important to the Empire as a whole and Morbs are narrowly important. I can see the Morbs providing a Major Boon payed by all Colleges together or Minor Boons payed individually by each College. A Minor Boon being something like a college's knowledge on a single topic such as how a single spell works or how their winds works with certain phenomenon like smoke or clouds. A Major Boon would be similar except provided by the colleges as a whole at a level similar to the Gold College teaching Mathilde how to bind apparitions, something like staff turning knowledge or knowledge on apparitions or something else all colleges have.


My personal visualization was something like

Major(possibly multiples):Colleges as a whole

Moderate: Specifically in the wheel house of the college in question, like, for a completely non random example, bugging the Ambers for a Griffon Egg(and hoping that Ambers be a discount compared to the Dwarf favor cost for acquiring one)

Minor: Aid not particularly in the scope or inclination of the college in question. Like trying to get an Amber that isn't E&S on board for an extended WEBMAT scholarly study action for instance.


Your Mileage Probably Varies
 
Oh I misunderstood the issue then, my apologies, still changing place names willy nilly is strange.
WAIT SOLLAND LIVES, WHAT, whats next is Lion El Jhonson suddenly hanging out in chrace with the white lions or something?

Wasn't the whole point of solland to show how dangerous the greenskins were by having a whole province be destroyed utterly?
 
I think his larger issue is the political shake-up 4th edition has, like a reborn Solland named Sudenland.
"The Southwestern-most of the Empire's provinces, Wissenland forms a triangle bounded by the Black and Grey Mountains on two sides and the River Reik on the third. Originally confined to the lands west of the Söll River, Wissenland in the 18th century absorbed what was left of Solland after the invasion of the Orc warlord Gorbad Ironclaw. Eight hundred years later, the people of Wissenland still often refer to the land east of the Söll as "old Solland" or "Sudenland," a modern derivation." Page 94 Heirs of Sigmar 2E

Sudenland was a thing in older Editions, it just wasn't an actual province. The province and political shake-ups are an issue for anyone trying to take ideas from 4th Edition, but at least this didn't come out of nowhere. I hear that the "Enemy Within" campaign is supposed to shake things up for the political situation, making it look like modern canon by the end, but I can't attest to that.
 
Oh so it's really just wissenlanders cosplaying as sollanders then? I guess that's more coherent but it makes my brain hurt a little.
 
There's also some malarkey called the 'Turmoil of 2512' in the new canon where it retcons Nordland, Ostermark, and Hochland into not being provinces until 2512.
 
"The Southwestern-most of the Empire's provinces, Wissenland forms a triangle bounded by the Black and Grey Mountains on two sides and the River Reik on the third. Originally confined to the lands west of the Söll River, Wissenland in the 18th century absorbed what was left of Solland after the invasion of the Orc warlord Gorbad Ironclaw. Eight hundred years later, the people of Wissenland still often refer to the land east of the Söll as "old Solland" or "Sudenland," a modern derivation." Page 94 Heirs of Sigmar 2E

Sudenland was a thing in older Editions, it just wasn't an actual province. The province and political shake-ups are an issue for anyone trying to take ideas from 4th Edition, but at least this didn't come out of nowhere. I hear that the "Enemy Within" campaign is supposed to shake things up for the political situation, making it look like modern canon by the end, but I can't attest to that.
My general understanding is that it starts off with things set up how they were in the original 1st edition Enemy Within campaign, and then it ends with the more modern version.

4th edition in general is a bit of a love-letter to 1st.
 
Oh so it's really just wissenlanders cosplaying as sollanders then? I guess that's more coherent but it makes my brain hurt a little.
I wouldn't say that. Solland was absorbed by Wissenland and Averland to a certain extent, and Heraldry of the Empire actually says that Averland's flag is a Sun to represent Solland, because Solland's patron god was Soll the God of the Sun. Even the battle of Solland's Crown actually took place around the River Aver in Averland rather than Solland.

Sollanders maintain an individual identity and they never fully integrated. Even hundreds of years after their province was absorbed they still feel kinship towards their history, and the Toppenheimers, who used to be a prominent Sollander family, are one of the most influential families of the Southern Empire. They control a significant portion of old Solland from Pfeildorf, Solland's former capital and current Chartered Free Town (meaning it's not under the EC's direct authority, but usually the Emperor's). There has been a Toppenheimer mentioned in Quest, the Count of Hornau in Southern Stirland that Wilhelmina wanted a contract with so the Canal could pass through his territory. Their name has serious far reach.

I got carried away. Anyways, there's plenty of interesting work that you could do with people who identify with Solland more than Wissenland. Cyrston von Danling in quest said he came from Solland/Sudenland not Wissenland, despite him technically being a Wissenlander.
 
Regarding the Orbs (I refuse to call them "Morbs") I suspect that the physical orbs themselves will be worth a lot of CF, but recording the process of creating them will be what breaks the system.

I wouldn't be surprised if Algard mistook them for gifts from the Eonir until we drop the AV manual on his desk.
 
Was just thinking. We simply have to do something elaborate and trollish for how we deliver them. I was also thinking of arranging for them to be sent to the individual colleges addressed to the patriarchs and delivered by elves. Sarvoi would be an excellent vehicle, and we know he has the sense of humor for it.

Hypertroll is to hold off on the paper until we can work up another set, then publish with a bog-standard, unmysterious gift of them.
 
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Regarding the Orbs (I refuse to call them "Morbs") I suspect that the physical orbs themselves will be worth a lot of CF, but recording the process of creating them will be what breaks the system.

I wouldn't be surprised if Algard mistook them for gifts from the Eonir until we drop the AV manual on his desk.
Until Mathilde will find a good way to replicate the creation of AV, which is bound to be a can of worms, the whole paper will be barley one step above Flight school memes.

step 1: Use the blood of your fanged nemesis is a heck of an entry point.

Though there is a the pieces of lore on primordial winds and if the situation is possible to replicate by another method other then AV or by tricking existing wind into that state of merging with previous strands of wind.

There's also some malarkey called the 'Turmoil of 2512' in the new canon where it retcons Nordland, Ostermark, and Hochland into not being provinces until 2512.
What the heck? that is one piece of a retcon.

True, it doesn't matter as much for those who play in the canon time, but still the mere echoes it can generate is huge.

As someone who is not fully familiar with the RPGs, is there something that explain why they did it or why might not be as huge as it sound?
 
What the heck? that is one piece of a retcon.

True, it doesn't matter as much for those who play in the canon time, but still the mere echoes it can generate is huge.

As someone who is not fully familiar with the RPGs, is there something that explain why they did it or why might not be as huge as it sound?
I believe it's a 1st Edition thing. 4th Edition wanted to bring back stuff from 1st Edition, namely the "Enemy Within" Campaign, which is an incredibly big and long campaign from the Old Days (and I mean real old) that Cubicle Seven refer to as "the greatest campaign in WFRP History" or something like that. They really love it and they brought some old writers like Graeme Davis to reprise their roles once more to improve on their decade old work. To do so, they made a bunch of changes to make it look like the Enemy Within Campaign needed it to look like. By the end of the Campaign things start looking like modern Warhammer again. It's also not like everything from 1st Edition is brought back. I think Karl Franz was a scumbag back then.

I suppose you can say it's like a Retcon of a Retcon for Nostalgia factor.
 
What the heck? that is one piece of a retcon.

True, it doesn't matter as much for those who play in the canon time, but still the mere echoes it can generate is huge.

As someone who is not fully familiar with the RPGs, is there something that explain why they did it or why might not be as huge as it sound?

As far as I can tell, they use it to make the 1e and 2e versions of the Empire's Electors both correct. 1e is pre-2512, 2e is post-2512. I suppose they see this as the one weird trick that will let them draw from both 1e and 2e for 4e.
 
The biggest bit of contention in 4e is:

A: that its core themes are 'least days of Rome' e.g all the different situations that can if not dealt could/will lead to a collapse/civil war.

B: The 'Enemy Within' campaign, (which 'FYI' is as a campaign actually pretty good') being about an incident that 'could' be the straw that breaks the camel's back. the last of the campaign books talk about ways that the players could stop the events and what could happen, but there is a sense that the 'canon' of the campaign is some mix of saving things at the low end, but that the players didn't manage to truly solve the big problems in a way that will last.

I understand why they did 'Enemy Within' as their first big campaign, the original is much loved and it's very good. but having your first campaign be about how your setting might be about to end, and that all your other books are referring it as something that will/is happening... it's a bold move, and one that a lot of people don't like.

If Enemy Within came wayyyyyyy later and after a few other campaigns, I think people would have had fewer issues with it.


C: oh, and there is some complete makeovers of the politics that sit wrong. that Nordland is basically Middenland puppet state being the big one for me. like, i get why: they want to create real, understandable reasons why Nordland has a separatist movement that isn't just nutheads. but if you wanted a provance to have a major separatist movement...why not use Ostermark? you won't have to change anything to make it believable with ostermark.... (not smart, but understandable.)
 
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My understanding of the political situation as of Archives of the Empire Vol 1 is that Middenheim is independent of Middenland, Talabheim is independent of Talabecland, and Sudenland is independent of Wissenland. Those all have Elector votes.

Ostermark is under the control of Talabecland, Hochland I believe is under Middenheim, and Nordland is under Middenland.

I'll note that those are all things that were the case at points in the history of the Empire in 2nd edition, just not by the time of Karl Franz. (Except for the Hochland one? I can't remember them ever being subjugated)
 
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Was just thinking. We simply have to do something elaborate and trollish for how we deliver them. I was also thinking of arranging for them to be sent to the individual colleges addressed to the patriarchs and delivered by elves. Sarvoi would be an excellent vehicle, and we know he has the sense of humor for it.
Im thinking we should just waltz into the colleges, drop the orb onto the desk of the receptionist and loudly declare they need to protect them better before leaving. First they will panic like hell trying to find out how we stole an Orb of Sorcery followed by confusion that all Orbs are accounted for.
 
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...Published 1986-1989, Yep, the re-retcon to rule them all.

As far as I can tell, they use it to make the 1e and 2e versions of the Empire's Electors both correct. 1e is pre-2512, 2e is post-2512. I suppose they see this as the one weird trick that will let them draw from both 1e and 2e for 4e.
Ah yes, the one neat trick to make sure all the canon inconsistencies go away, I heard this before.

At least it affect only the pre 2522, so that is something, all the official sources of the rpg are at 2522 now right? they aren't the type to do installments in previous eras?
 
At least it affect only the pre 2522, so that is something, all the official sources of the rpg are at 2522 now right? they aren't the type to do installments in previous eras?
They are very much doing a thing where all the smaller campaigns and plots in the books and pdfs are happening around the same time as 'Enemy within'. they might move on or look back in time in the next major campaign (how many times have i typed that word in the last page?) but right now everything is happening in 2522.
 
It's a franchise-wide thing for GW that they have a few themes that they love and keep throwing in that seem like they could be used to tell interesting stories but they never actually get around to telling those stories. Hey, what's your favourite really cool weapon that they only have a few of that can't be replaced when lost? Steam tanks? Orbs of Sorcery? Anvils of Doom? Dragonships? Black Arks? Hey, what's your favourite Sword of Damocles that they linger on the fraying rope on for super long but never actually have fall? The Golden Throne failing? Roboute waking up? Cammoragh imploding? Kryptmann's Gambit? Hey, what's your favourite province with a capital that is also a city-state which puts it on the brink of its own miniature civil war? The classic options of Middenheim and Talabheim went so well that we're doing it for Nordland and Stirland and Averland too!

It's something they've gotten better at since their leadership shake up - I understand the 40k timeline is no longer frozen in time in the last eight hours of the last day of the 41st millennium, with only the footnotes of the Ciaphas Cain novels indicating that a 42nd millennium might ever exist - but I'm still leery when I keep hearing about all the incipient civil wars in literally every corner of the Empire. This can be handwaved away as just problems for adventurers to solve but jeez, even 4e's Laurelorn has a pretender to the throne when they've only had four rulers total in the entirety of history.
 
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