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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Quick question, but in what update did we get our Shadow Knives Mastery? As far as I can tell it just showed up one day when we were showing it off to Regimand.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I can't find it at all, can you quote the relevant section for me? I've been wondering about it for ages, but no matter how many times I reread that section I can't seem to find it.
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Boney said:
The answer would never come. The Fangleader had an instant in which he could have reacted as pain blossomed in his chest, and then a second, stronger thrust shoved the blade between two ribs and into his heart and he knew no more. The watching Skaven did not see the wound, as the chestplate the Fangleader wore blocked their gaze even as it posed no obstacle to the summoned dagger. All they saw was their leader crumple.
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Godwinson said:
See if we can get some farming clans (possibly from Karak Vlag?) to teach techniques to (specific trusted) Halflings in Karak Eight Peaks?
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That's certainly a possible early angle, IMO. Though even more than that, if research can discern roughly which nutrients might be missing, or conversely which toxins may be present, it may be possible to find ways to fortify and/or purify food to meet those needs. I mean it when I say this might end up being a source of goodwill accessible to every farmer, town, and trader in the Empire and beyond.
 
mathymancer said:
Mathilde's excellence in dwarven diplomacy isn't really teachable - insert flight school meme, "just reclaim a Karak or two" etc.
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Mathilde's excellence in dwarven diplomacy doesn't only come from reputation. It also comes from the years she's spent living among them and talking to them. It's those years which got Mathilde her Advanced Karaz Ankor Diplomacy skill, not her feats.
 
Redshirt Army said:
The dwarves that Mathilde knows and interacts with personally (most notably Belegar) don't agree with the Conclave, and in Mathilde's own internal monologue she doesn't agree with it either.
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Do we actually know that they don't? Like what textual evidence is there of this? I know that as a practical matter, we've lost all the advantages of being a friend but not a dwarf in exchange for the social benefits, of, you know, being a dwarf. But we haven't taken much advantage of them, which is kinda unfortunate. I'd really like to find out what happens when we do play into being a dwarf.

And given we are Mathilde, I'm at least of the opinion that it will ever be neither confirmed nor denied by Ranald, which is why Ranald's laughing so hard, so who knows?

But I'm assuming no one has textual evidence either way in regards to use being a Dawonger dwarf then?

Also, as an edit, we are really good at this grudge thing. We only seem to have one open, and it's against Sigmar.
 
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Abhorsen said:
Do we actually know that they don't? Like what textual evidence is there of this?
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Citation!
Boney said:
Third, you having a Dwarven soul. You spend some time turning the idea around in your head, before ultimately discarding it as unfalsifiable. And on top of that, it doesn't ring true.
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Boney said:
"Ancestors forbid he acknowledges the good done by an Umgi," he says with a frown. "Much better to announce some drivel about Dwarven souls in Umgi bodies."
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Boney said:
"I can see why Dwarves wouldn't be comfortable with that. But the announcement the conclave gave was a lot more than just saying it was plausible. What takes it from 'it's technically possible' to them being sure enough to announce it to the world?"

"More than the need to assuage the guilt and shame of a Karaz Ankor that had given up on Karak Vlag? Well, I speculate, but if they were able to communicate with your Ranald and put the question to Him, would He have given them a straight answer?"
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Valmond said:
I figure that dwarves are lot easier to deal with than almost any human polity.
It's just that the rules so simple people keep missing them.

Pay your bills, keep your word, and don't try to be clever with your wording.
Dwarves have a lot longer memories than humans, and will not just get over things, or forget a slight, just keep that in mind and you are probably half way to being an expert dwarf diplomat.
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The crux is that human diplomacy and trade involves a lot of assumed deception.
You will inflate the value of what you are offering, you will undervalue what you want, you will ask for more than you expect to get, and the hallmark of a skilled diplomat or trader is knowing how best to test for their opposite number's position, with the understanding that nobody wants to come away with No Deal.

To dwarf culture however:
-You will inflate the value of what you are offering -> You lied about your product, and your product is umgak

-You will undervalue what you want -> You insulted the craftsman, his supplier and the trader

-You will ask for more than you expect to get -> You ask for ridiculous things, and that does not signal confidence in fair dealing.
 
Probably the other big hang-up would be all the unspoken parts of Dwarfen society and the things that they all know but are too private or shameful to express.

As one example- Belegar attending the Slayerhood ceremony of that young Dwarf after the first few peaks were retaken.

If he'd went there as The King, that signals that the shame of the Dwarf was such as to be a mark against the whole Karak and similar. So he wasn't The King, there.

Hypothetically, a human going to such an event and giving Belegar some pomp and circumstance would be committing a big faux paus by drawing attention to the fact that the King is there.

Stuff like that.
 
veekie said:
The crux is that human diplomacy and trade involves a lot of assumed deception.
You will inflate the value of what you are offering, you will undervalue what you want, you will ask for more than you expect to get, and the hallmark of a skilled diplomat or trader is knowing how best to test for their opposite number's position, with the understanding that nobody wants to come away with No Deal.

To dwarf culture however:
-You will inflate the value of what you are offering -> You lied about your product, and your product is umgak

-You will undervalue what you want -> You insulted the craftsman, his supplier and the trader

-You will ask for more than you expect to get -> You ask for ridiculous things, and that does not signal confidence in fair dealing.
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And on top of that, a dwarf will judge you based on how well you have kept the promises your great great great grandfather made.
Well, not necessarily, but when it comes to noble families or political entities, they almost certainly will take that into consideration.

Dwarves are capable of deception, but it is deception based largely on silence about shameful things where a thing is just memory holed, active lying is, while a thing that happens, not as culturally acceptable.
 
16 characters said:
Yeah, I think some standard here should be that while yes the setting is grim you shouldn't add negative traits to characters that you never intend any to act on to begin with.

Also this weird grimderpy attitude I bet explains why I've found so little written on the cult of Shallaya, I mean I think there's a lot of despair that can be wrung out of truly good people coping with a terrible world but I suspect that concept is lost on certain writers.

See also Darkness Induced Audience Apathy for another reason as to why this can be unhelpful for selling a dark setting.
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Well, the issue with the Cult of Shallya is that yes, they are nice... But they're also so passive that subverting them is trivial, and indeed, it's so heavily compromised that the Lahmians can reasonably claim that the whole cult is a cats paw for their bloodline.

The only reason that's actually only a little true instead of objective fact boils down to "Ranald's bois and girls doing the God's Business propping his Waifu's cult up"
 
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Alectai said:
Well, the issue with the Cult of Shallya is that yes, they are nice... But they're also so passive that subverting them is trivial, and indeed, it's so heavily compromised that the Lahmians can reasonably claim that the whole cult is a cats paw for their bloodline.

The only reason that's actually only a little true boils down to "Ranald's bois and girls doing the God's Business propping his Waifu's cult up"
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Show me the source saying the Cult of Shallya is a puppet of the Lahmians.

Or infiltrated more heavily than any other aspect of society.
 
Alectai said:
Well, the issue with the Cult of Shallya is that yes, they are nice... But they're also so passive that subverting them is trivial, and indeed, it's so heavily compromised that the Lahmians can reasonably claim that the whole cult is a cats paw for their bloodline.

The only reason that's actually only a little true boils down to "Ranald's bois and girls doing the God's Business propping his Waifu's cult up"
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There is absolutely zero evidence that the Cult of Shallya is heavily infiltrated. Its an explicit misogynictic screed in universe that has become fanon gospel through word of mouth.
 
Mopman43 said:
Show me the source saying the Cult of Shallya is a puppet of the Lahmians.
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They claim it, I'm not saying it's true, but there's enough Lahmians secretly pretending to be Shallyans and getting away with it that they can smugly make the claim though, and it'd be worse if people bullying Shallyans didn't end up falling down staircases onto a crate of knives courtesy of a Certain Good Friend.

Then again, I'll admit I'm not quite as familiar with Warhammer Lore as some are, so I might be influenced by fanon here. Also haven't been able to pay as much attention to this thread as I used to because real life and stress suck.
 
Alectai said:
They claim it, I'm not saying it's true, but there's enough Lahmians secretly pretending to be Shallyans and getting away with it that they can smugly make the claim though, and it'd be worse if people bullying Shallyans didn't end up falling down staircases onto a crate of knives courtesy of a Certain Good Friend.

Then again, I'll admit I'm not quite as familiar with Warhammer Lore as some are, so I might be influenced by fanon here. Also haven't been able to pay as much attention to this thread as I used to because real life and stress suck.
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Where is this claimed?

There's a single instance of a Cult of Shallya Lahmian in Nights Dark Masters, and it's a high priestess running a convent in a draconian manner to try to make the Cult of Shallya look bad and reduce their influence.

Which is the opposite of what they'd do if the whole Cult was their cats paws.
 
Alectai said:
They claim it, I'm not saying it's true, but there's enough Lahmians secretly pretending to be Shallyans and getting away with it that they can smugly make the claim though, and it'd be worse if people bullying Shallyans didn't end up falling down staircases onto a crate of knives courtesy of a Certain Good Friend.

Then again, I'll admit I'm not quite as familiar with Warhammer Lore as some are, so I might be influenced by fanon here. Also haven't been able to pay as much attention to this thread as I used to because real life and stress suck.
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Who claims it? Cause the Lahmians don't. Not in any canon sources I can recall of the top of my head.
 
Alectai said:
I already admitted to being wrong! Do I still need to get tag teamed?
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I'm not trying to double team you sorry. Mopman just keeps ninjaing me :V

But you also really didn't admit to being wrong you in fact doubled down. "They claim it, I'm not saying it's true, but there's enough Lahmians secretly pretending to be Shallyans and getting away with it that they can smugly make the claim though, and it'd be worse if people bullying Shallyans didn't end up falling down staircases onto a crate of knives courtesy of a Certain Good Friend."
 
I think that the "Shallyans are passive and/or pawns of Lahmians" is probably a mix of out of universe fanon and prejudice against non combat roles (because the game is a war game), and in universe misogynism (possible influenced by out of universe misogynism).

Like, Shallyans are passive? How?
These are the pre eminent health care organization in the Empire, i would assume any major battlefield have a fairly strong contignent of Shallyans being very active trying to keep people from dying.
 
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