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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Terry Pratchett said:
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
"It's a lot more complicated than that--"
"No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."
"Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes--"
"But they starts with thinking about people as things..."
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K von Carstein said:
Because morality is an interesting subject?
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Yes, and this is a thread about Divided Loyalties, and the discussion is barely related, only similar in that they both encompass Warhammer Fantasy. I have been involved in my fair share of off-topic discussions related to Warhammer in this thread, but usually I try to connect them to something within the quest, and I'm uncomfortable having more than 5 pages dedicated to them. This discussion has been going on again and off again for several days now. Last I checked we aren't playing a villain MC quest, and Boney hasn't indicated an interest in doing that, and the thread doesn't seem to be inclined to push towards that direction. Why are we still talking about it?
 
Exmorri said:
Lie.

Have an in-character advisor say "those guys are fascists" with more words, and half of SV will turn into bloodthirsty warmongers talking about how big a pyramid of skulls they want to build from those guys. War being generally terrible, and the press being sensationalist, the war can produce an endless series of reports on atrocities the enemies committed, and voters will nod sagely to themselves at how wise and just their aggressive war was.

Corollary: I think a major reason there's so few evil quests on SV is that quests tend to give out unreasonably accurate information. Most voters like making informed choices and don't like being lied to by the QM, so I don't blame them. This is compounded by the voters as a whole having read lots of setting books and possessing metaknowledge of the personality of the major characters when a quest uses an established setting.

To use Harry Potter as a familiar example, another approach to an evil quest might be for the QM to secretly roll which teacher is possessed by Voldemort during first year and not even mention that this roll was made, so the student protagonist can become the unwitting aide to an evil teacher. This might not technically be "lying" but it's quite close in encouraging people to make false assumptions.
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I hope my feedback on this might prove enlightening somehow.

I don't want to build a pyramid of skulls from anyone but when the group you face wants you say, dead, burried and erased from history its hard to not to at least want to force them to their knees so that they can't again. Hatred and anger are not required for such a calculus.

I mean I don't think that's right, not always if it leads to more death and suffering than choosing not to survive maybe, but it is very hard not sympathize with. Most of us have an urge to survive that's hard to subtract from our lives.

Another problem is more fundamentally many of us, including myself not only don't want to be lied to but want to be the least evil version of whatever they are playing if they are indeed forced to be evil. In an entropic world not every action can be of utility to every person in it sadly.
Thats not a reason not to try and continually aim for the least evil though in such circumstances.

Sometimes this can be a problem if the evil itself is meant to be the draw, but if the struggle itself or whathave you is, than I think this is much less severe.

I think I've seen the cannibal ghost quest too that veekie speaks of, most players even there had lines they pretty much would Not cross. Say making metal out of souls willy nilly and basing an ecconomy on that.

EDIT: I see some want to move on, my appologies for continuing this then.
 
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Codex said:
This discussion has been going on again and off again for several days now. Last I checked we aren't playing a villain MC quest, and Boney hasn't indicated an interest in doing that, and the thread doesn't seem to be inclined to push towards that direction. Why are we still talking about it?
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Hm. If I had to guess I think the on-again/off-again nature of the discussion may be contributing somewhat to its longevity? Insofar as it's structurally more similar to several consecutive off-topic tangents rather than a single coherent one, and therefore is lasting a relatively normal duration for such a tangent each time it comes up but nevertheless in aggregate proving unusually durable. Mind, I haven't actually been exceptionally tuned into the thread of late, so this is mostly based on surface impressions & may not hold water - just the best theory I've got ATM.
 
It's 'shitty take' bait, as most/many largish online discussion involving morailty are, and I'm not up for seeing shitty takes atm; so I'll be another person pointing to the very off topic nature of the discussion.
 
For people fretting over the tiebreaker, I'd like to put forth the idea of voting for a dark horse candidate—none other than best duckling, Gretel Maurer, orphaned street thief turned Death Wizard who is currently employed by Barak Varr in an unknown capacity to bring order to the Border Princes.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
For people fretting over the tiebreaker, I'd like to put forth the idea of voting for a dark horse candidate—none other than best duckling, Gretel Maurer, orphaned street thief turned Death Wizard who is currently employed by Barak Varr in an unknown capacity to bring order to the Border Princes.
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My reasoning for not wanting to meet Gretel yet is that she already has her silk sheets. We can't show up without our own silk sheets. So until the silk isn't flowing yet i will wait.
 
I would like to ask about something deeply important to the wizards of the Colleges of Magic: fashion. First, context.

WFRP 4e: Winds of Magic, page 151
Wizard's robes are often confused with the uniforms of the Colleges of Magic. No formal uniforms exist, but each college does teach that certain fabrics, designs, colours, and accessories help channel the Winds of Magic. Most college wizards compromise between practicality, comfort, and efficacy when it comes to their robes. There are three different grades of wizard robes: Practical, Standard, and Elaborate.
[...]
Practical Robes: These costumes are inexpensive, comfortable, and relatively plain. A wizard wearing practical robes may even go unrecognised in many situations.

Example: The practical robes of a Bright Wizard might consist of jerkin, hat, and trousers in various shades of red, orange, and yellow. Embroidered flames may be picked out in gold thread around hems, cuffs, and collars. A small brass key may be worn as an accessory.

Standard Robes: These costumes are more complex and typically include heavy coats or cloaks and distinctive headwear.

Example: The standard robes of an Amber Wizard might consist of suede jerkin and trousers, a heavy fur cloak and a headdress made from the bones or hide of a large animal. Feathers, claws, and teeth will be worn openly as ritualistic fetishes, and the arrow symbol of Ghur is plainly engraved into them.

Elaborate Robes: These costumes are heavy and impractical, often incorporating bulky accessories and reams of cloth woven from magically infused thread. Anyone wearing these robes will be instantly recognised as a wizard.

Example: The elaborate robes of a Light Wizard might consist of several layers of pure white linen. Heavy pieces of jewellery made from gold and inset with small tiles of lapis lazuli are worn at the wrists and neck. A tight skullcap of white calfskin is worn on the head. The costume is finished off with a harness made of golden wire that holds eight candles about the wizard's shoulders.
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Now, all that said, what exactly would Elaborate Robes for a grey wizard look like? To date, I don't think I've seen a grey wizard that's reached the same heights of flamboyant accessory as light wizards and bright wizards. Are the Greys' subordination to the tyrannical constraints of wisdom and practicality dooming them to an eternity of sartorial insignificance?
 
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veekie said:
Could test it by feeding mixed amounts to supplement other foods?
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I assuming they are doing that already. But they should be doing is having multiple groups feed various amounts of the slime. Really by now I would be doing blood work on the animals to find out what is going on. Because if it just nutritional that can be augmented with other foods. But if it is the slime itself that be a bigger problem.
 
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I am sorry I am currently voting based on how interesting these look to me. I want a look at the projects that could change the world the most. To me that vote looks like this.

[X] Lecturer Sarvoi
Learn more of the Hekartian understanding of and relationship with the Winds
[X] Gretel
She's apparently getting involved in the Karaz Ankor's ambitions in the Border Princes.
[X] The Black Water Canal
Pay another visit to the canal project, and see if there's any further signs of sabotage.
[X] Kasmir
See how his partnership with Sylvania's native faith has been going
[X] Organ Vat
Follow up on your donation of the Skaven organ-vat, and see what has been made of it.
 
I just don't find that I'm interested in the dwarfhold narrative right now, if we choice border princess Mathy, sure.

But magic research Mathy has very different fish to fry.

[x] Organ Vat
[x] The Weber Estate
[X] Lecturer Sarvoi
 
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I'm interested in all four socials, but I figure that whichever one we miss this time is almost certain to get voted for the next social.

So for me, this is less a vote about "what social do I want to or not want to do" and more a vote of "which social do I want to do when".

Personally, I'd like to see Lecturer Sarvoi and Organ Vat the most. Sarvoi because our interactions with them next turn will have more context from knowing them better, and Organ Vat because I feel its nice pacing to get to that immediately after our interest in it has significantly increased due to the Orbs of Sorcery thing. Very clear cause and effect.

EDIT: But overall, while I have a preference, I don't think its too big a deal which of the four misses this turn. I'm really not gonna be bothered if Sarvoi or Organ Vat wind up in the next turn instead of this one.
 
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Nurgle said:
I assuming they are doing that already. But they should be doing is having multiple groups feed various amounts of the slime. Really by now I would be doing blood work on the animals to find out what is going on. Because if it just nutritional that can be augmented with other foods. But if it is the slime itself that be a bigger problem.
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I think the issue is they don't really have blood work yet.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I just don't find that I'm interested in the dwarfhold narrative right now, if we choice border princess Mathy, sure.

But magic research Mathy has very different fish to fry.

[x] Organ Vat
[x] The Weber Estate
[X] Lecturer Sarvoi
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Only because no matter what ends up winning this time the sheer number of great options means people will probably be dissapointed.
 
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