Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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[X] College Dispensation
You know, as much as I don't like Alric himself, slimyer then the gold patriarch in term's of shamelessnes and that boney said Egrimm has enough stories of his deeds being stolen by him to be an entire social action doesn't help my view on him.
Still, were coming from a position of power after Alric's been yeeted fromi believe Stirland, another province, and then downgraded to protecting the family of Dieter that outlawed the wizards as an institution and failed even that.
The only reason this project is possible because the elves know the dwarves only participate in this project because of our broken rep with them.
Mhm, more likely i'm thinking of being straight forward with Alric and saying to him that we have already developed a relationship with Mira and gotten Ellrise and her apprentice so HE has to offer us something to join the project since Mira won't be happy with him joining us. Perhaps the recruitment of a relevent cult such as the cult of Tal & Rhya, Verenean's, Maybe connections to Ostland elector count so we can build waystones/ repair them in his territory since the Nordland have been absorbing the Ostland hedgewise families so they'd know the fallen waystones/nexus locations and perhaps even offer oto install magic waystone defences/improvements like the ice witches have through trusty Alric if he manages to gain his trust.
Anywho, i'm not really afraid of Alric, if he tries to get into the project I suggest we try to get him to do something productive for us. dude's been rejected from 2 provinces I believe, he's gotta be desperate for this opportunity and he doesn't know we sabotaged his attempt at glory.
You know, as much as I don't like Alric himself, slimyer then the gold patriarch in term's of shamelessnes and that boney said Egrimm has enough stories of his deeds being stolen by him to be an entire social action doesn't help my view on him.
Still, were coming from a position of power after Alric's been yeeted fromi believe Stirland, another province, and then downgraded to protecting the family of Dieter that outlawed the wizards as an institution and failed even that.
The only reason this project is possible because the elves know the dwarves only participate in this project because of our broken rep with them.
Mhm, more likely i'm thinking of being straight forward with Alric and saying to him that we have already developed a relationship with Mira and gotten Ellrise and her apprentice so HE has to offer us something to join the project since Mira won't be happy with him joining us. Perhaps the recruitment of a relevent cult such as the cult of Tal & Rhya, Verenean's, Maybe connections to Ostland elector count so we can build waystones/ repair them in his territory since the Nordland have been absorbing the Ostland hedgewise families so they'd know the fallen waystones/nexus locations and perhaps even offer oto install magic waystone defences/improvements like the ice witches have through trusty Alric if he manages to gain his trust.
Anywho, i'm not really afraid of Alric, if he tries to get into the project I suggest we try to get him to do something productive for us. dude's been rejected from 2 provinces I believe, he's gotta be desperate for this opportunity and he doesn't know we sabotaged his attempt at glory.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Imperial Dispensation
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
So we all thought, but apparently Ulthuan can build new ones. They just have an extremely limited supply of the Ild One Monoliths needed.
From whence is technically grammatically incorrect (it's saying from from where, basically) but has been used idiomatically for centurie, and is fine here.
Political support doesn't matter for SP though, and Mathilde can tell any Patriarch who isn't Algard or the SP to go spin and keep running the project even if they demand she shut it down. They might be able to pull their College's support, but if she gets the Emperor to be on board with the project then even the SP can't tell her what to do with it.
- Location
- United States
[x] Imperial Dispensation
It's not Dragomas' job to have an opinion on Alric. The leadership of the Light Order is the business of the Light Order.
No point, there's absolutely nothing problematic about getting a dispensation for Waystone Gold when you're approved for studying Waystones.
As I understand, the only real difference for going to Emperor, is that he is not legally required to notify others about "your subordinate is allowed to study dark magic now". I don't think he will ask something extra from Grey LM, who is concerned about secrecy on an important Imperial project. And even if he will, we still have Great Deed.
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- Location
- Russia
Gold seems to be the metal resonating with magic and Chamon specifically the most, from using it in rituals like Gelding to manifestation of material effects of Chamon frequently as gold to very name of it in elven tradition. Perhaps, even if gold is one of the worst metals by mundane mechanical properties, this resonance makes it prime basic metal for Old Ones' material science, for creating all sorts of specialist alloys using magical metalworking techniques - akin to iron and various grades of steel for our civilization.
There is still question of nature of such resonance and magic alloying. In quest canon, Eight Winds are local phenomenon for this planet created by polar gates, then is this magical resonance with Chamon indicative of some deeper resonance of that metal with energies of Warp in real world at large? It hardly would make sense for Old Ones to invent entire branch of thaumametallurgy specifically for use in terraforming system of this specific planet (better known as "Lizardmen"). Or are Winds not so local and artificial after all?
Those alloys also aren't magical the same way usual magic artifacts and creatures are - Mathilde didn't observe any magic inherent to the alloy and underlying the observable enchantment in the Johann's arm. Is this some deeper (perhaps, microscopic) level of enchantment unobservable to even the keenest Windsights of modern Old World? Or is it alteration within fundamental physical laws of Warhammer universe, instead of forced override of those by conceptual energies of the Aethyr? I personally can't imagine all the observable diversity of macroscopic phenomena, and properties of materials specifically, identical to our same diversity, emerging from anything other than known to us simple laws of quantum mechanics and electrodynamics, but Boney remarks about real physics and questverse force such possibility to be at least considered.
Edit: over my verbal diarrhea completely forgot to vote.
[X] Imperial Dispensation
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Alric is the wizard who is held responsible by many within the colleges for the storm of magic that directly lead to witch hunters capturing, torturing and executing wizards across the Empire. If he tried to work with Cult of Sigmar to shut down another wizards project—a project that has the support and approval of the Karaz Ankor—he'd be ostracised for it on the spot. It would be political suicide for him to do that, and it would establish the precedent that the Grand Theogonist can interfere with wizarding matters, which is something the other patriarchs and matriarchs would want to prevent.
And besides, if the Cult of Sigmar did get involved, if they found out that we bypassed the official procedures to get permission to study dark magic, then that gives them more ammunition against us.
Lets keep everything legal and aboveboard so our enemies do not have more mud to sling at us, okay? And by enemies, I mean "allies" because the Cult of Sigmar is supposed to work with the colleges, not against them.
Gap
Not a Dog
- Location
- The Malleary
[x] Imperial Dispensation
My main reasoning is that I don't see much downside compared to the College one. The biggest problem with going directly to the Emperor is our superiors Ego... and well Algard will understand why (information security) and Dragomas may not understand but I don't think he will be to truly hurt by it.
Its guesswork yes but when deciding about if we should bypass or not out superiors we have to take their personalities in mind.
What is the reasoning why College Dispensation could be better than Imperial one?
My main reasoning is that I don't see much downside compared to the College one. The biggest problem with going directly to the Emperor is our superiors Ego... and well Algard will understand why (information security) and Dragomas may not understand but I don't think he will be to truly hurt by it.
Its guesswork yes but when deciding about if we should bypass or not out superiors we have to take their personalities in mind.
What is the reasoning why College Dispensation could be better than Imperial one?
HanEmpire
Delicious
I'd say...the chance to study the contrast between perspectives of multiple races and cultures and the conclusions they reach about the nature of Magic. Cython was blindsided by the Dwarfs and their relationship with the Divine, maybe this could hold the same allure of Discovery? I dunno.
Because it's the official and correct way to do it, rather than bypassing all the highly important paperwork via personal connections, and means that if anyone complains we have the correct forms in triplicate to make them shut up. The only downside is that Dragomas has to inform Algard, Feldmann, Paranoth, and Alric that their wizards have permission to study dark magic. He doesn't have to tell them why, or what that dark magic is, except that it relates to the waystones, which suck up Dhar and removes it.
It's like asking the president for permission to handle nuclear materials because we're investigating ways of cleaning up radiation, but instead of putting in a formal application we simply ask his wife to invite us for dinner and he writes out an executive order specifically for us just before dessert is served.
But apparently keeping it secret from Alric who does not have the right or the power to interfere with us is more important than doing it properly.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
[X] College Dispensation
TBH, Alric is a headache, but he doesn't have that much to offer us and not enough influence at the moment to seize control of a project like this. We kept our hand clear of the cult issue, and most of the rest of the people this'd have to go through have already implicitly signed off.
And given how the very point of Waystones is to "Dump magic out of the world", I'd imagine that going "Hey, we're pretty sure we can make headway here, but the very nature of what we're dealing with is going to involve brushing up by proxy against Dark Magic, we're going to need a dispensation" is a reasonable ask.
TBH, Alric is a headache, but he doesn't have that much to offer us and not enough influence at the moment to seize control of a project like this. We kept our hand clear of the cult issue, and most of the rest of the people this'd have to go through have already implicitly signed off.
And given how the very point of Waystones is to "Dump magic out of the world", I'd imagine that going "Hey, we're pretty sure we can make headway here, but the very nature of what we're dealing with is going to involve brushing up by proxy against Dark Magic, we're going to need a dispensation" is a reasonable ask.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
One thing I wanted to comment on- the Waystone connecting Marienburg to L'Anguille was destroyed during the War of Vengeance, and the High Elves only made a new one after they reconnected with the Old World and started to make inroads into Marienburg, right?
That's about 3500 years in-between, so at the very least, the network has historically been able to compensate for the loss of that Waystone.
That's about 3500 years in-between, so at the very least, the network has historically been able to compensate for the loss of that Waystone.
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To be fair I can easily imagine that happen. Both in our and Warhammer worlds.
Not the War of Vengeance, the Great War Against Chaos, 187 years ago.
- Location
- Russia
It was destroyed during Great War. That phrase normally means Great War against Chaos, of 2301-2304 IC, and War of Vengeance isn't called by such name by anyone. The Marienburg-Couronne link was offline for a few decades at maximum.
Edit: Weber'd by GM
It sort of did—Walt Disney somehow managed to obtain permission from the US government to build a nuclear power plant to power one of his theme parks, and the Disney corporation still holds those rights to this day. They never actually built a power plant, however, which is probably why no one has actually tried to revoke those rights yet.
- Location
- Denial
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Right which is why we should go to the emperor. Not only does it avoid Alric finding out entirely it also prevents anyone going over Dragomas' head. I was arguing for why we shouldn't do the college option.
So you want to boot Egrimm and Johann off the project then? Because any project involving them is very explicitly not above board because they have already been given permission to study dark magic once.
Going directly to the emperor is in no way illegal or below board, it might annoy Dragomas because we went above him but that's it. Like you seem to be applying the logic of a bad middle manager to the entire empire here. The emperor has the legal authority to give us permission and we have the ability to get a meeting with him. There is nothing illegal or shady about that, the only people who could possibly care would be Algard or Dragomas if they don't like the idea of their subordinates going above their head, no-one else is going to care at all.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Oh wow, some very good and constructive posts!
Thank you, I hope you are willing to edit this with updates as a thread mark, it would be very helpful.
Is there anything we can bring to him that would help him recreate it, if it requires reagents or something?
So, this might actually be an avenue for diplomacy: if the tomb kings use it for their constructions, they either know how to make more, or they don't and they might want it recreated as well.
So, basic Theory (hypothesis) of Waystones:
Consists of four parts:
1. The focusing device. Currently our best example of a mass produced one is the semi-gold pyramid cap.
2. The separation storage. Currently our example is the eight-pointed star in the base.
3. Dhar core. Theorized and implied.
4. Connection to the leyline.
Operations:
The Dhar core pulls on the winds and other Dhar in a wide radius, enhanced by the workings on the obelisk portion. This is bright to the waystone externally to the focusing device, which gives the exterior energy a focal point. From here, the pull from the Dhar core is interrupted by the foundational storage device, keeping each wind separate using principles similar to Thorek's device designed to separate the winds from aeytheric vitae. The Dhar pulled in goes to the Dhar core of the waystone, keeping that function active.
Then it is dropped out into the leyline, which has a suction function: the warp likely attracts Dhar heavily, and leylines are going to be the paths of least resistance in an otherwise dense world.
The enchantments are going to be of several parts then:
- attraction
- interior channeling
- storage of winds
- storage of Dhar
- gates between the storage elements
- logic to drive them
- connection to leyline (must be done on location)
This theory implies that the vortex works primarily by being a connection to the warp uncontrolled by any of the chaos gods, so the attraction to Dhar can function without the pressure of their beings forcing it into the world like they do at the polar gates. (Or maybe the polar gates were contrived to create the current into the world, which went wild?)
I think Thorek does, and I think he showed it to us without realizing it.
My guess is that it wants to flow down into the leylines because that's the 'downhill' and we know this stuff likes to pool and settle in places so the waystone would function by gating that, and them building up a local network of drainage channels.
And this, I think, is how the golden age dwarves drew their line of secrecy- they would help the elves improve what they had freely, but the secrets of making stone transparent to the winds they kept to themselves.
We can also approach this from a military perspective, which several of our contributors might like.
We have, from just getting everyone together, identified the most critical hubs in the network as it exists now. We can deduce from this where the most important hubs that have fallen might be, by cardinal and ordinal directions from existing hubs and bunches of pooled evil magic- they did so in the dialogue just now.
So we can start to think about how we go about implementation assuming research and prototyping.
What are the biggest nodes implied that would drain parts north of Kislev?
- ice witches will want to maintain their circuit
What big blockages exist within the empire?
- empire is going to want to both drain it's forests and set a circuit aside for it's own purposes
Laurelorn might bargain for empire waystones to be pointed in their direction in exchange for considerations.
Who do we have to help first that isn't in the project? I'm assuming that the biggest immediate need in re-establishing dead branches of the network is going to be working backwards from the points we want to clear to the connection to ulathan, then forwards to the first blockage from ulathan.
Which means we can hand a tailored campaign map to a person who is asking about clearing any given patch of land.
Thank you, I hope you are willing to edit this with updates as a thread mark, it would be very helpful.
Is there anything we can bring to him that would help him recreate it, if it requires reagents or something?
So, this might actually be an avenue for diplomacy: if the tomb kings use it for their constructions, they either know how to make more, or they don't and they might want it recreated as well.
So, basic Theory (hypothesis) of Waystones:
Consists of four parts:
1. The focusing device. Currently our best example of a mass produced one is the semi-gold pyramid cap.
2. The separation storage. Currently our example is the eight-pointed star in the base.
3. Dhar core. Theorized and implied.
4. Connection to the leyline.
Operations:
The Dhar core pulls on the winds and other Dhar in a wide radius, enhanced by the workings on the obelisk portion. This is bright to the waystone externally to the focusing device, which gives the exterior energy a focal point. From here, the pull from the Dhar core is interrupted by the foundational storage device, keeping each wind separate using principles similar to Thorek's device designed to separate the winds from aeytheric vitae. The Dhar pulled in goes to the Dhar core of the waystone, keeping that function active.
Then it is dropped out into the leyline, which has a suction function: the warp likely attracts Dhar heavily, and leylines are going to be the paths of least resistance in an otherwise dense world.
The enchantments are going to be of several parts then:
- attraction
- interior channeling
- storage of winds
- storage of Dhar
- gates between the storage elements
- logic to drive them
- connection to leyline (must be done on location)
This theory implies that the vortex works primarily by being a connection to the warp uncontrolled by any of the chaos gods, so the attraction to Dhar can function without the pressure of their beings forcing it into the world like they do at the polar gates. (Or maybe the polar gates were contrived to create the current into the world, which went wild?)
I think Thorek does, and I think he showed it to us without realizing it.
My guess is that it wants to flow down into the leylines because that's the 'downhill' and we know this stuff likes to pool and settle in places so the waystone would function by gating that, and them building up a local network of drainage channels.
And this, I think, is how the golden age dwarves drew their line of secrecy- they would help the elves improve what they had freely, but the secrets of making stone transparent to the winds they kept to themselves.
We can also approach this from a military perspective, which several of our contributors might like.
We have, from just getting everyone together, identified the most critical hubs in the network as it exists now. We can deduce from this where the most important hubs that have fallen might be, by cardinal and ordinal directions from existing hubs and bunches of pooled evil magic- they did so in the dialogue just now.
So we can start to think about how we go about implementation assuming research and prototyping.
What are the biggest nodes implied that would drain parts north of Kislev?
- ice witches will want to maintain their circuit
What big blockages exist within the empire?
- empire is going to want to both drain it's forests and set a circuit aside for it's own purposes
Laurelorn might bargain for empire waystones to be pointed in their direction in exchange for considerations.
Who do we have to help first that isn't in the project? I'm assuming that the biggest immediate need in re-establishing dead branches of the network is going to be working backwards from the points we want to clear to the connection to ulathan, then forwards to the first blockage from ulathan.
Which means we can hand a tailored campaign map to a person who is asking about clearing any given patch of land.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Ah, my bad. Think I mentally associated it with the other mention of the "War of the Ancients".
- Location
- Earth
[X] Imperial Dispensation
Like, I get why so many people are focusing on Alric, but in the grand scheme of things, he doesn't matter. Read the opinion of LM Mathilde, and what she says on the College option:
"But the process of going through proper channels could be one that would draw a lot of unwanted attention"
The examples given for the Leaders of the Wizard Colleges are just the people that would know about it, for sure. Who knows who else will twig to something going on from them, or from the process of telling them.
This is the kind of secret where the dwarven king only knows about it, and he only tells his heir. Where the runelords have kept it for centuries.
You do not spread this shit around. Not because you suspect someone, but because you need to control this information. The problem are not the Wizards, the problem is Chaos. Even without the meta argument "we already have one of the most notorious chaos sorcs on our roster", we do not want to give them opportunities to find out about this.
Every person who knows about it a problem. Our own wizards that know about it are a problem, and we need Imperial "She will kill if you speak about it" level orders for them, preferably delivered by the Emperor in person. If anything, ever, was a maximum paranoia project, this is it. I've held that stance on the Waystone project from the start. Going "they're just another ambitious group wasting their time" is one thing.
Going "they're making actual progress" makes Mat and her project, enemy number one after the god damn Phoenix King and the Everqueen for Chaos. So let's not tell them about it.
Like, I get why so many people are focusing on Alric, but in the grand scheme of things, he doesn't matter. Read the opinion of LM Mathilde, and what she says on the College option:
"But the process of going through proper channels could be one that would draw a lot of unwanted attention"
The examples given for the Leaders of the Wizard Colleges are just the people that would know about it, for sure. Who knows who else will twig to something going on from them, or from the process of telling them.
This is the kind of secret where the dwarven king only knows about it, and he only tells his heir. Where the runelords have kept it for centuries.
You do not spread this shit around. Not because you suspect someone, but because you need to control this information. The problem are not the Wizards, the problem is Chaos. Even without the meta argument "we already have one of the most notorious chaos sorcs on our roster", we do not want to give them opportunities to find out about this.
Every person who knows about it a problem. Our own wizards that know about it are a problem, and we need Imperial "She will kill if you speak about it" level orders for them, preferably delivered by the Emperor in person. If anything, ever, was a maximum paranoia project, this is it. I've held that stance on the Waystone project from the start. Going "they're just another ambitious group wasting their time" is one thing.
Going "they're making actual progress" makes Mat and her project, enemy number one after the god damn Phoenix King and the Everqueen for Chaos. So let's not tell them about it.