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You could make an argument that they are the British empire just before ww1, very much in decline, but very much still the biggest boy around.

But that's a bit to subtle for what I'm willing to give GW.

The only similarities they have to the British Empire is that they are an island nation, have a navy, and have colonies they are losing/lost control of, and that more or less describes every naval power from the Ancient Mycenaeans to the Modern US.

They are more like Atlantis, to be honest, with a weird mix of Egyptian, Hellenic and Byzantine aesthetics.

Besides, Bretonnia is the designated "British" nation, what with its Arthurian knights, strict class divisions, longbows and powerful navy.
 
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The only similarities they have to the British Empire is that they are an island nation, have a navy, and have colonies they are losing/lost control of, and that more or less describes every naval power from the Ancient Mycenaeans to the Modern US.

They are more like Atlantis, to be honest, with a weird mix of Egyptian, Hellenic and Byzantine aesthetics.

Besides, Bretonnia is the designated "British" nation, what with its Arthurian knights, strict class divisions, longbows and powerful navy.
Bretonnia is French, though.

Arthurian myth had some stops in France as well.
 
Bretonnia is French, though.

Arthurian myth had some stops in France as well.

Britain is also french.

Okay, the historical King Arthur would have lived (if he existed, evidence is still being debated) around 500-600AD—shortly after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but before England was settled by the Anglo-Saxons that England is named after. He's a Briton, and shares more in culture with the Romans and Celts than he would with the Knights in Shining Armour of the medieval period.

Anglo-Saxons arrived and became the dominant culture (new evidence suggests this was mostly peaceful, with Anglo-Saxons integrating as farmers and craftspeople into pre-existing Briton communities rather than as invading colonisers). This was solidified when Alfred the Great united all the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms into one and made his native "Wessexian" culture and language the dominant one (Arthur's name is first recorded during this period, anything earlier is lost to time). Then in 1066 "Angleland" was invaded by Duke William of Normandy, and for the next ~400 years England was ruled by a French speaking aristocracy (eventually the Anglo-Saxon and Old French cultures would hybridise into "English" culture).

At some point in this period, the story of Arthur travels over to France, where a bunch of french writers create a fictionalised account of King Arthur the Holy Knight of Christ and his war to defend the noble English people against those evil pagan Anglo-Saxon invaders, and then that is followed by nearly a thousand years of slapfighting between Arthur-Guinevere shippers and Lancelot-Guinevere shippers.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Bretonnia is the "pop history version" of that specific time period where England and France had the same culture which was mostly preserved in French fanfiction of a Pre-English king. It's a fictional nation based upon the national fiction of a time period that never happened.
 
Basically, what I'm saying is that Bretonnia is the "pop history version" of that specific time period where England and France had the same culture which was mostly preserved in French fanfiction of a Pre-English king. It's a fictional nation based upon the national fiction of a time period that never happened.

Well, it had a strongly overlapping elite culture, I'd say is a better way of putting, in the Angevin Empire and the remains of that.
 
I've been refreshing my memory on Tome of Salvation and all the gods presented in the book, and I do believe I have something to point out.

Well, for one, there's a lot more localised gods of specific places than I remember. The World's Edge Mountains, Peak Pass, Middle Mountains, Veldt, Koppens, Oberstein Woods, and about half a dozen bodies of water have specific gods attached to them.

It's in those bodies of water that I would like to mention. Grandfather Reik is the God of the River Reik. Altaver is the God of the River Aver. Taal is believed to be the God of the River Talabec and he is worshipped as such in Talabheim (it's how they justify the big fancy temple, he's not God of the Wilds there, he's the God of this specific river that determines our livelihood). There are even a bunch of minor gods attached to some of the smaller bodies of water. Wulfor for Lake Wolfen, Ktharta for Lake Delb, Aach for Aach River and so on.

The interesting thing is that the only major river that doesn't have a listed patron is the River Stir. Well, there's also River Sol, but that is a less vital river to the Empire's livelihood and I suppose an argument could be made that Soll, the god from which the River is named after, is the river's patron.

The River Stir is honestly kind of a sad river. It's the primary river of Sylvania and it borders Mordheim on top of that. It also does not border any of the Empire's major city states, unlike the rest of the major rivers (Aver with Nuln, Talabec with Talabheim and Reik with Reikland).
 
The River Stir is honestly kind of a sad river. It's the primary river of Sylvania and it borders Mordheim on top of that. It also does not border any of the Empire's major city states, unlike the rest of the major rivers (Aver with Nuln, Talabec with Talabheim and Reik with Reikland).
We should become the Ancestor-Goddess of the River Stir.
 
Doesn't Stirland have Manhavok? I remember that being brought up in-quest.
He's a God of Floods exclusive to Stirland, so perhaps. He doesn't seem to have been restricted to the Stir though. The Aver also borders Stirland, but not Sylvania, since it ends around the point southern Stirland and the Moot hit the World's Edge.

There is also a belief that Manhavok is another name for Manaan, though that's said of a lot of gods.
 
Ah, to be more clear, I'll quote page 33 of Tome of Salvation:

"Of all, Manhavok is perhaps the strangest, for he is worshipped in central Stirland, far from any large bodies of water."

I'm not sure this carries over entirely to DL. I believe Manhavok was mentioned by Kasmir to be worshipped around Stirland instead of just central Stirland.
 
To those who need a refresher on the Stirland bog Gods:
"Have you ever heard of Manhavok?" Without thinking you make a gesture to placate the God of Floods, and you frown as you try to remember where you learned it. "Yes, that's the one. God of Floods, only worshipped in Stirland, which always struck me as odd. Everyone knows the gesture and most people know the prayer, even if they grew up in the hills far from the gentlest tributary. But I think I know why. The ancient Fennones would worship the bogs, which isn't as strange as it first sounds. Bogs gave them bog-iron and peat and bog-wood and all sorts of berries, and in return the Fennone would give them their worship and the bodies of their dead, which the Vampires later took advantage of. Bylorhof never forgot the old ways, and they still worshipped the God of Bylorhof Marsh, Bylorak, even after the Vampires came. In secret at first, and openly after they struck down Count Ranelf. I think there was once a 'family' of Gods that were worshipped, one for each bog and marsh and swamp, and one for Manhavok for when waters encroached on dry land unexpectedly."

You frown to yourself as you remember the shrine to Stromfels under Wurtbad. It seemed strange to you at the time that there'd be a God of Shipwrecking so far inland, but for an ambitious acolyte, Manhavok might have represented some substantial Godly real estate that Stromfels might have been able to subsume, and considering the entire household got buried under flood-silt, perhaps Manhavok objected. "It makes sense," is all you say.

"The first clincher for me is Mannfred," Kasmir says. "After the Battle of Hel Fenn, the Imperial forces searched for Mannfred von Carstein's body. Martin of Stirland sent search parties on a regular basis for the rest of his life. Even today our forces keep finding necromancers dredging Hel Fenn. Some people take this as a sign that Mannfred escaped and is licking his wounds somewhere, but everything about him in the history books tells me he's not the type to lay low. If he was out there, we'd know about it. So I think that nobody can find him because Hel Fenn is holding him, just as Bylorak is holding Count Ranelf."

You nod to yourself. It doesn't take much to bring a Vampire back. If it hasn't happened yet despite all the foolish Necromancer acolytes doing their best to make it happen, it's reasonable to assume it's because something is stopping them. "You said the first clincher. What's the second?"

"Ever been to Hel Fenn?"

You think for a moment. "Visited Mikalsdorf once, but didn't pay much attention to the surrounds. Why?"

"It's not a fen, it's a swamp."

You shrug. "Cartographers mistake? Can't imagine many would be willing to double-check."

"That's the thing, I went digging through all the archives I could. Even the earliest maps record it as Hel Fenn, and so does every one since. Always one L, always two Ns. Something's making that name stick. Nobody's ever tried to 'correct' it to two-L one-N Hell Fen. Nobody's ever relabelled it to a swamp. Which makes me wonder where the Fennones got their name. Their foremost God, perhaps?"

You think through the rest of your knowledge of the Vampire Wars. "And Grim Moor?"

"Is a bog," he says with a smile. "Is it too holding tight onto Konrad?"

"Another God hidden in a name?"

"Morr, perhaps? Or something like 'Gremmer' that was transliterated into words by outsiders."

"All very interesting, but what's it in service of?"

He waves a hand. "Sylvanians have no patience for outsiders coming in with outsider Gods. They'll accept our help, and they'll definitely accept our gold, but at the first sign of trouble the priests flee and the Sylvanians will have no choice but to go back to their old habits. What do they care for Sigmar, who overlooked their tribe? What do they care for Taal when their forests are so hostile, or Rhya when their crops so often rot, or Shallya when there's no mercy to be found? But Bylorak succeeded where all others failed. Bylorhof never paid a drop of blood to the Vampire Counts. So if we can re-establish their Old Gods, perhaps they can succeed where ours have failed."
Kasmir was impressed by Bylorak's ability to protect his followers from the vampires and decided that he should re-establish the old bog Gods. This seems to have culminated in the establishment of the Council of Manhorak.
The full 'council' seems to be of Manhorak and His sons: Bylorak, Fennorak, Darmorak, and Grimorak. General response seems rather confused, but nobody seems all that unhappy about a cult who's really into drowning vampires.
This is an attempt to make a pantheon out of the bog Gods with Manhavok at its head. But Kasmir isn't sure of the exact name of the Gods - at least he wasn't when we last talked. The solution he seems to have settled on was to give them plausibly correct names that end with 'rak', following the example set by Bylorak. Bylorak gets to keep his name because he still has followers who kept His old traditions alive and also because he's the one with the proven track record of drowning at least one vampire.
So Manhavok is rebranded as Manhorak. The God of Hel Fenn - believed to have been the patron God of the Fennones - is now called Fennorak. The God of Grim Moor gets to be Grimorak, and the God of Dark Moor (which wasn't mentioned in our conversation with Kasmir) will be Darmorak.

(While we are here I would like to once again reiterate my desire to talk to Kasmir. I know the next social vote will be brutal, but let's make some time for our old friend)
 
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I'm working on a theory at the moment that there are two pantheons of gods. Well, no, we already know that. There's the Old (Northern) Gods, and the Classical (Southern) Gods, and also the Cadai and the Cytharai.

But what if that's just two pantheons altogether—the Classical gods and the Cadai are one pantheon, and the Old gods and the Cytharai are the other.

Verena is Hoeth (Classical + Cadai)
Ranald is Loec (Classical + Cadai)

Manann is Mathlann (Old + Cytharai)
Morr is Morai-heg (Old + Cytharai)

Rhya isn't Isha (Old + Cadai).

What if there's two tribes of gods, like the Aesir and the Vanir, that are allies against the Gods of Chaos, but are also competing against each other for influence? Morr and Verena married as part of this alliance, but what if Rhya and Taal (Old gods) are trying to steal Isha and Kurnous's (Cadai) domain as the gods of nature (or vice versa)?

There's some holes in this theory, and it's not complete (Morr is worshipped in Tilea despite being an Old god, and Morai-heg is sometimes considered to be outside the Cadai/Cytharai system, so maybe they are not an Old/Cytharai god, but from a third group of gods?) but I can't bring myself to dismiss the idea entirely.
 
We should become the Ancestor-Goddess of the River Stir.

There's almost certainly a Naeid/local god who'd fight Mathilde for that.
There's some holes in this theory, and it's not complete (Morr is worshipped in Tilea despite being an Old god, and Morai-heg is sometimes considered to be outside the Cadai/Cytharai system, so maybe they are not an Old/Cytharai god, but from a third group of gods?) but I can't bring myself to dismiss the idea entirely.

Morr's a Classical God though.
 
I'm working on a theory at the moment that there are two pantheons of gods. Well, no, we already know that. There's the Old (Northern) Gods, and the Classical (Southern) Gods, and also the Cadai and the Cytharai.

But what if that's just two pantheons altogether—the Classical gods and the Cadai are one pantheon, and the Old gods and the Cytharai are the other.

Verena is Hoeth (Classical + Cadai)
Ranald is Loec (Classical + Cadai)

Manann is Mathlann (Old + Cytharai)
Morr is Morai-heg (Old + Cytharai)

Rhya isn't Isha (Old + Cadai).

What if there's two tribes of gods, like the Aesir and the Vanir, that are allies against the Gods of Chaos, but are also competing against each other for influence? Morr and Verena married as part of this alliance, but what if Rhya and Taal (Old gods) are trying to steal Isha and Kurnous's (Cadai) domain as the gods of nature (or vice versa)?

There's some holes in this theory, and it's not complete (Morr is worshipped in Tilea despite being an Old god, and Morai-heg is sometimes considered to be outside the Cadai/Cytharai system, so maybe they are not an Old/Cytharai god, but from a third group of gods?) but I can't bring myself to dismiss the idea entirely.
Interesting idea. Shallya being Isha fits your theory, since Shallya is a Classical God. Likewise for Ulric being of the Ellinilli. How about Myrmidia? I can't see any Cadai she's a good fit for, but she definitely fits the Cadai vibe. Morr is kind of problematic but so is Morai-heg so maybe that fits? If we take Deathfang at his word about Rhya not being Isha then he also believes that Rhya isn't in the elven pantheon at all. This makes sense, as there isn't really another God in the elven pantheon besides Isha that could fit Rhya. Once we assume there are some Old Gods that aren't in the Cytharai we don't have to keep assuming that Verena is Hoeth etc - maybe the Classical and Cadai pantheons are distinict but allied, just like Rhya and Taal seem to be distinct from the Cytharai? This could be the way to explain Myrmidia.

But perhaps it's simply that there are two archtypes of Gods that arise naturally, awesome Gods that you want to be friends with and scary Gods that you want to placate, with stuff like death and the sea naturally falling in the scary pile and stuff like knowledge and mercy falling in the nice pile. Happened with the elves, happened with the humans.
 
The known Classical Gods are, according to Tome of Salvation:

Shallya, Goddess of Mercy
Verena, Goddess of Wisdom
Khaine, God of Murder
Margileo, God of Honour
Scripsisti, God of Scribes
Possibly Ranald
Morr, God of the Dead
Mathann, God of the Sea
Karnos, God of the Wilds
Ishea, Goddess of Agriculture

Interestingly, the name for the northern God of the Dead has apparently been lost

It also says:

Thus, long before the great city-states of Tilea had been wrought, it is claimed there was an intellectual elite that could read and write in the south of the Old World. However—as if this were not already enough!—the arrogant Tileans go even further. As most of their early settlements were built in and around the ruins abandoned many centuries ago by the Elves, the Tileans also reason their ancestors must have translated the impossibly complex runes of that race! From these translations the Tileans then claim to have learned the founding principles of modern philosophy, medicine, theology, astronomy, and, most importantly, they believe they uncovered many new Gods.​

Apparently the Tileans claim they learned of the classical gods from elven sources.
 
Morr's a Classical God though.

Wiki lists him as an old god, and cites 4e for it. I don't own any 4e so I can't confirm.

Interesting idea. Shallya being Isha fits your theory, since Shallya is a Classical God. Likewise for Ulric being of the Ellinilli. How about Myrmidia? I can't see any Cadai she's a good fit for, but she definitely fits the Cadai vibe. Morr is kind of problematic but so is Morai-heg so maybe that fits? If we take Deathfang at his word about Rhya not being Isha then he also believes that Rhya isn't in the elven pantheon at all. This makes sense, as there isn't really another God in the elven pantheon besides Isha that could fit Rhya. Once we assume there are some Old Gods that aren't in the Cytharai we don't have to keep assuming that Verena is Hoeth etc - maybe the Classical and Cadai pantheons are distinict but allied, just like Rhya and Taal seem to be distinct from the Cytharai? This could be the way to explain Myrmidia.

But perhaps it's simply that there are two archtypes of Gods that arise naturally, awesome Gods that you want to be friends with and scary Gods that you want to placate, with stuff like death and the sea naturally falling in the scary pile and stuff like knowledge and mercy falling in the nice pile. Happened with the elves, happened with the humans.

Maybe not every god is worshipped by both humans and elves, but there are still split into two distinct pantheons? Like, Pantheon One has Cadai and Classical gods, but Myrmidia is only worshipped as a human god, not an elven one, maybe? I'm going to have to break out the venn diagrams, aren't I?
 
Maybe not every god is worshipped by both humans and elves, but there are still split into two distinct pantheons? Like, Pantheon One has Cadai and Classical gods, but Myrmidia is only worshipped as a human god, not an elven one, maybe? I'm going to have to break out the venn diagrams, aren't I?

Myrmidia may be a transformation of Margileo, God of Honour, who may be a translation of Eldrazor, the elven god of Honourable and Skilled Battle, thanks to a hundred generation long game of telephone.

Wiki lists him as an old god, and cites 4e for it. I don't own any 4e so I can't confirm.

This image on the wiki is, I think , 4E's set of Classical Gods, despite the name. I think he wiki writer is just putting their own gloss on things.

Interesting that Ranald is the Classical God of Trickery, not of Luck, as that's a rather different portfolio.
 
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[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
 
Ok, but that seriously undermines your headline agreement:



If there's no leverage than there's no need to work around thier idiosyncrasies- and since all of the demands happen after they've functionally lost their leverage I don't see your concern.
Well, up to this point I was assuming that we are dealing in good faith. And that answer you pucked out was in response of whether Boney would do trap options and what him not doing so meant in this context. I wasn't saying that Tindomiel in particular would have all kinds of idiosyncracies (till now just that no one present will be allowed to build Waystones without their okay if they happen to be in X area), I was trying to say that even if they had all kinds of problematic idiosyncracies it would still be a legitimate option that Boney would nit and should not feel bad for giving us and presenting as viable. Does that make sense?

Maybe I should have said "Even... would not be a trap option."
That never happened as far as I know. I have not found a single mention of a Dwarf-only Waystone, in quest or in other material
I may have misunderstood. I remember that the Waystones of the Dwarven network looked exclusively Dwarven, but maybe that was just in the sense of decoration. What I do remember is that they don't feed into the Vortex like usual. But maybe that too is a misunderstanding and they just do so at the end after having wringed out every last scrap of magic needed to power the Great Works and such?
To those who need a refresher on the Stirland bog Gods:
Manhavok was also mentioned before in passing when Mathilde told Panoramia that she never learned how to swim back during their first romantic date.

Edit: Actually, that happened in part 2 of the same social turn.
 
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