I am not sure they will. I think it is worth keeping in mind that there is a whole field of Eonir politics out there that we are not privy to. The project is important, but far from the only game in time. Say you are House Thyriolan and you see some glorious advance of the Waystone Project, are you going to then look to jump on and play second fiddle to your rivals, or conversely try to find some other thing to shine in?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I am not sure they will. I think it is worth keeping in mind that there is a whole field of Eonir politics out there that we are not privy to. The project is important, but far from the only game in time. Say you are House Thyriolan and you see some glorious advance of the Waystone Project, are you going to then look to jump on and play second fiddle to your rivals, or conversely try to find some other thing to shine in?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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Morr is both a Classical and an Elder God:
"Although we know the tribes observed many Gods—most of whom are now long forgotten—five rose to prominence: Ulric, Morr, Manaan, Taal, and Rhya. These Gods represented concepts of core importance to tribal life: War, Death, Nature (marine and terrestrial), and Life, and soon came to be worshipped by many of the tribes, although they were often known by alternative names. Scholars of the Empire know these Gods by several collective names, such as the Elder Gods, nord Godt, or the quindeus, for they are the oldest deities still widely recognised by Sigmar's great Empire, and deserve special attention." Page 9 Tome of Salvation 2E
"As the Tilean traders spread word of their Gods, they, in turn, were influenced by our ancestors, and returned to their homelands with new myths and legends, some of which were incorporated into their existing traditions. Thus, many of the earliest surviving Tilean texts have tales including the northern names for the Gods, rather than the original Tilean names. For, although Morr was a name that originated in the south (the northern names for the God of Death have been lost to time), the Tileans used different names for Manann, Taal and Rhya (Mathann, Karnos and Ishea), and had no equivalent for Ulric at all (although some brave theists have dared to draw comparisons between Ulric and Khaine). The extant texts of the time have many myths of one God meeting another, typically a Classical God meeting an Elder God, mirroring the contact between the Old World tribes." Page 12
There are many examples of myths featuring Taal, Ulric and Morr as brother gods ruling the Empire and other such things. He is firmly ensconced within the mythos of the Elder Gods, even if he went by a different name back then. It's also theorised he was the patron of the Ostagoths, the Pre-Imperial Tribe of Ostermark.
Morr's history is a complicated one.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
I'd love to read that😊 I found only 2 elves quests. One is dead, we played as the Phoenix King.
The other is still active and the character is an elven smith. It began well, but I stopped reading after that time we open the throat of a potentially not willing recruit during a Khainite cult meeting and drank his blood. All of it described in lovely details.
Also, what kind of story is an empire of heart cold? What is it about? 🙃
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Huh. From what I read about Morai-Heg in the wiki she too straddles the line between Cadai and Cytharai.
Ooh, do tell. What's the name of that Quest?
Rags to Illthimar if I remember the spelling correctly.
That was a neat quest, too.
... I'm reasonably sure it's also where the idea that the high elves are constantly active in fighting threats all over the world came from, as well.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I weep for Paradox of Choice.
You are correct that it is the origin of the idea of the Long March where high elves fight all the threats across the World when going to the archives of the past again.
- Location
- Earth
I'm assuming this is Imperial?
Phew. Finally caught up. Will be rethinking my Tindomiel vote in a bit, but there is one thing worth mentioning with regards to potential Sigmarite inteference. Namely that Waystone project is among other things is a dwarven project. So if it achieves such a major success as making new waystones we can always respond to any significant Sigmarite meddling by chucking Thorek at them.
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
[x] Plan Middle Ground
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
[x] Plan Middle Ground
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
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- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I doubt that option would work. If we wanted the Cult of Sigmar to be allies we should have chosen Karaz Eight Peaks as the central location for the Project.
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[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
Obviously it won't just shut them up all by itself. But still, having a powerful and renowned Runelord willing to publically and loudly endorse the project is still a potent tool when dealing with sigmarites.
Codex
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I don't think the Sigmarites are going to become a major thorn in our side over the Waystones unless we give them some big openings to exploit, but I do have to say that I think the thread has a tendency to overestimate the Dwarves' effect on the Cult of Sigmar. Yes it is true that the Cult of Sigmar is stricturally obligated to assist Dwarves (in the most blunt and vague phrasing you could use. "Aid Dwarf-folk" and all that). It is also true that Dwarven culture is heavily integrated into the Cult of Sigmar, to the point that I could even say they're kind of like Weeaboos in that regard (Dwarfaboos?). Sigmarites priests often learn Khazalid and use Khazalid phrases and give themselves Dwarven names. Did you guys know that every Grand Theogonist adopts a Dwarven name or epithet?
"The Dwarfs play a vital role in the legend of Sigmar. Most importantly, they gifted Sigmar with his mighty, magical warhammer, Ghal Maraz. To honour the Dwarfs, it is customary for the Grand Theogonist, and the arch lectors, to assume a Dwarfen name or epithet. The name chosen is believed to say a great deal about the character of he that chooses it. Both the current arch lectors changed their names (Kasmir XI and Thorgad IV), where the Grand Theogonist, Volkmar von Hindenstern, chose the epithet "Grim," which means harsh and unyielding in Khazalid." Page 57 Tome of Salvation
However, it is also true that the Cult of Sigmar provided zero help or aid to the K8P expedition in its entirety despite aid being requested by Belegar personally in an Elector's Meet. The Taalites, Myrmidians, Ulricans, Stirlanders, Nordlander and Middenlander refugees and Halflings all provided their support, but the Sigmarites were nowhere to be seen. It's very easy for Sigmarites to pay lip service to their "Aid Dwarf-Folk" stricture without actually going through with it.
"The Dwarfs play a vital role in the legend of Sigmar. Most importantly, they gifted Sigmar with his mighty, magical warhammer, Ghal Maraz. To honour the Dwarfs, it is customary for the Grand Theogonist, and the arch lectors, to assume a Dwarfen name or epithet. The name chosen is believed to say a great deal about the character of he that chooses it. Both the current arch lectors changed their names (Kasmir XI and Thorgad IV), where the Grand Theogonist, Volkmar von Hindenstern, chose the epithet "Grim," which means harsh and unyielding in Khazalid." Page 57 Tome of Salvation
However, it is also true that the Cult of Sigmar provided zero help or aid to the K8P expedition in its entirety despite aid being requested by Belegar personally in an Elector's Meet. The Taalites, Myrmidians, Ulricans, Stirlanders, Nordlander and Middenlander refugees and Halflings all provided their support, but the Sigmarites were nowhere to be seen. It's very easy for Sigmarites to pay lip service to their "Aid Dwarf-Folk" stricture without actually going through with it.
Spreadsheet of the Kron-Azril-Ungol
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm assuming so too, given that it'd be odd for us to only have dwarven books on that.
On that note... I have made a Google Sheets document for the library and the topics we have at the moment. Personally, I find visual arrangements of information more palatable. I was thinking of keeping it to myself, but maybe someone here will find it useful for future votes regarding what sorts of books we should get.
View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IbiOsj5OP-o0yelG2XkiC1iLh7fCgMcRm6silGH_-BA/edit?usp=sharing
Edit: I'm taking pains to cross out unavailable books, be it because they don't exist (dwarf books on most magical topics) or because it'd be very difficult to deliberately obtain books from those sources - books from the Skaven (who are hostile), or from Cathay (who are very very distant). It's a bit haphazard, but it should serve for easier perusal.
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The cult of Sigmar has not provided a lot of help, but also rarely does Mathilde go out of her way to interact with the cult of Sigmar. She has one friend who is a Sigmar priest, few others who worship Sigmar, but a lot of her friends are either wizards or dawi. Now we may want to ask the cult of Sigmar for help but I do not see that happening till we have to build more wizards waystones. Or we need a large and disposable force to help us take a way stone to study or fix.
Also, the Cult of Sigmar is still upset with the Eonir for killing all those humans in Nordland. It's debatable how sincere they are (kicking Ulric out of Nordland and getting a few new temples built there will be quite significant), but they have made a lot of noise over it.
- Location
- Earth
Speaking of book lists, something I'd find helpful is a list of groups distinct enough to have their own category of books (ie Sartosan books are lumped under Tilean, and Halfling books under Imperial, despite Sartosa and the Moot having significant cultural divergence from mainland Tilea and the Empire respectively), and a list of notable subjects we currently have no books on (to establish how broad a subject gets, like Herbs of the Reik Basin as opposed to Herbs in general, or Halétha not qualifying for Her own book category despite Her being of some story relevance now).
Of course, listing all of them would be a nightmare for Boney, so they only come up when relevant, but it's still a headache trying to guess what's a legitimate purchase or loot possibility and what's not.
The closest I have to a list of all groups who have their own book types is the list Boney gave of people with books on Old Ones: Slann, Southlands Slann, Ulthuan, Naggaroth, Athel Loren, Laurelorn, Albion, Cathay, Khuresh, Dragons, Dragon Ogres, Fimir, and Prometheans.
Categories that don't have Old Ones books who still have books in general include Dwarven, Imperial, Bretonnian, and Skaven. Other groups we don't have any books from that I think qualify as having their own category include Kislevite, Arabyan, Tilean, Estalian, Marienburger/Wastelander, Nehekaran, Nipponese, Indan, and some flavor of Vampire. And maybe Norscan, Chaos Dwarf, and Kurgan? I'm still doubtful of Greenskins and Ogres having literature, but if Prometheans can have books, why not? Beastmen probably have a unique enough perspective to count as a different book category, which is irrelevant because they hate civilization too much to have a chance of doing something as civilization-y as having written knowledge past a few carved sigils.
Of course, listing all of them would be a nightmare for Boney, so they only come up when relevant, but it's still a headache trying to guess what's a legitimate purchase or loot possibility and what's not.
The closest I have to a list of all groups who have their own book types is the list Boney gave of people with books on Old Ones: Slann, Southlands Slann, Ulthuan, Naggaroth, Athel Loren, Laurelorn, Albion, Cathay, Khuresh, Dragons, Dragon Ogres, Fimir, and Prometheans.
Categories that don't have Old Ones books who still have books in general include Dwarven, Imperial, Bretonnian, and Skaven. Other groups we don't have any books from that I think qualify as having their own category include Kislevite, Arabyan, Tilean, Estalian, Marienburger/Wastelander, Nehekaran, Nipponese, Indan, and some flavor of Vampire. And maybe Norscan, Chaos Dwarf, and Kurgan? I'm still doubtful of Greenskins and Ogres having literature, but if Prometheans can have books, why not? Beastmen probably have a unique enough perspective to count as a different book category, which is irrelevant because they hate civilization too much to have a chance of doing something as civilization-y as having written knowledge past a few carved sigils.
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Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nordland's Cult of Ulric defies traditional Middenlander orthodoxy and that causes tension between them. As an example of this, Nordland has the only female only Temple of Ulric in the Empire:
"Before the enforced celibacy, the Order of the Howling Wolf had a significant minority of women. In those days, marriage between priests and priestesses wasn't unknown, and children from such unions were often chosen to replace their parents in the temples. Today, the cult is very different. After a millennium of celibacy, male dominance is almost complete, and only the oldest temples have quarters for women.
Female priests are the source of many problems within the cult. Most men believe women should have nothing to do with Ulric and his religion, and are rarely happy to be led by them. Others see women as little more than a temptation to their vows, and useless on the battlefield. Unsurprisingly, female Ulricans disagree, but that does nothing to break down the endemic bigotry.
It is likely that there would be no women left within the cult if not for the isolated Sudfast Temple in Nordland, which has been solely maintained by female priests for over 2,000 years. The temple aggressively exports its highly opinionated, strong-minded priestesses across Nordland, who are viewed as little better than troublemakers by Middenlander Ulricans. The temple's current high priestess is Katherine von Siert. A stubborn, blonde-haired noblewoman from Altdorf, her understanding of politics is not typical for the cult, and makes her doubly unpopular. Nevertheless, she maintains close relations with her peers, and shares the high priest of Salzenmund's ambitions for Nordland." Page 69 Tome of Salvation
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Nordland's also (in 2e, I think Boney's suggested that it's different in-quest) where Rhya is significantly worshipped without Taal.
Codex
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Bad news about that:
"Renowned hunters and foresters, the Nordlanders' woodland skills are so strong that even Hochlanders and the folk of the Talabec will grudgingly admit that they are "not too bad." Certainly Nordlanders are close to the land: The province has one of the largest communities of Rhya worship in the north of the Empire, centred around the clannish villages south of Hargendorf. The Worship of the Harvest Mother without her consort Taal, is considered particularly dangerous in come circles of thought. Talabeclanders in particular are dismissive of this "women's worship." They whisper that the Elves join the Humans for their religious rites at old stone circles deep in the woods; though speculation is rife, no one knows what really goes on in these joint ceremonies. The Elector Count is not comfortable with this, and is considering sending investigators to determine if the people of the Demst vale are planning a revolt." Page 65 Heirs of Sigmar
This is one of the areas that's been purged. I imagine a good portion of the refugees of Ulrikadrin would be worshippers of Rhya though.
However, Haleth is still recognised as the patron of the Longshanks in the northern Empire:
"The Longshanks are exceptionally skilled outdoorsmen, most of whom venerate Taal above Rhya, while some northerners worship her in her aspect as Haleth the Huntress." Page 40 Heirs of Sigmar
This is odd. My "No" vote on the Hedgewise does not appear to be showing up in the tally despite my other votes showing up.