Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[LadyLynn]

Here's a spicy idea: what if we try and use our Great Deed to get Hekarti legalized? If we plan to do that we make Shrines/Dedication significantly more plausible outside of Laurelorn, which means we can reduce the scope of the RoR if we want the more major options.

Of course, there is the possibility that we wouldn't be able to succeed with the Great Deed alone in getting Hekarti legalized, but I suspect that could change with a bit of AP investment. We have a lot of potential pull if we put our mind to it, to be frank.

Right now the political attitudes within the Empire seem to be significantly more positive towards the Eonir, what with them buddying up to the Ulricans and everyone staring judgingly at Nordland, so I think that could reduce resistance to something like this.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I don't think Mathilde can do any of these desicions without major consequences.

Click to shrink...

I'd like to point out that we do have the authority to make this decision because of our status as a Lady Magister, but you're right in that there would be major consequences to letting them extend their cult into other nations.

 

[Sparsebeard]

After a little more thought this plan does appeal to me:
[ ] Plan: Secular waystones for everyone (Theorist edition)
-[ ] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
-[ ] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[ ] [FORM] Secular (-2)

With secular waystones I can't think of a downside, but maybe I'm missing something.

Click to shrink...

I mean, it's quite a huge commitement to allow an elven house monopoly over the fabrication of Waystones. I'm sure it's not gonna ruffle any feathers of our present and future partners. Especially Karaz Ankor, I'm sure they'd be thrilled!

I loved how the Tindomiel character is one of our first elf contact to truly embody the elven arrogance stereotype.

 

[K von Carstein]

I don't care what secrets they think they have up their sleeves. We have both a plethora of participants and some heavy hitters in Runelord Thorek and Grey Lord Hatalath. None of whom asked for a price nearly comparable to this. I say we give them their Shrines in Laurelorn for the Priest or the Heir, or failing that, refuse them entirely. We mainly wanted their assistance for Laurelorn-level politics. Giving them political leverage this wide-ranging is completely beyond that.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I completely agree with that. They're in no way primordial to the WP, and they're asking way more than the others.

So the weaker of the two would be on the same scale as Al-Kharid, purely going by age and lineage.

Click to shrink...

Do we know how old Alkemi was?

Gods mean cults, and cults mean constant squabbles for power and influence.

Click to shrink...

Gods also potentially means that the flow of energy flowing through the network can be used by said god or empower him. We don't know, but that's not a risk I'm willing to take. The Kislev Stones are maybe dedicated to the Widow, we should wait and learn more about that and the potential effect.

I'm not comfortable with giving power to a fricking Cytharai goddess, especially when we don't know what her agenda is. And that would be even worse if they build those waystones all over the Empire or the continent, including the Karaz Ankor.

 

[Hianny]

Yeah no, i trust elves to keep their word but everything i know about all elven societies makes it seem like they are full off double speak and finding loopholes in everything. If the contract would have had a time limit maybe, but an unending contract with an elf is something i would never go for.

 

[K von Carstein]

I'd like to point out that we do have the authority to make this decision because of our status as a Lady Magister, but you're right in that there would be major consequences to letting them extend their cult into other nations.

Click to shrink...

We do? We have the right to give authorisation to representatives of a foreign nation to build infrastructures in another foreign nation?

 

[Mopman43]

Do we know how old Alkemi was?

Click to shrink...

He dressed like a Time of Three Emperors noble.

It's not ironclad evidence, but it's more likely than him actually being from Nehekhara.

 

[Boney]

But if Mathilde is okay with that (since she is considering it as an option), doesn't she know which God or Goddess is meant here?

Click to shrink...

No. Something along the lines of 'a guise already accepted by your kind'. Mathilde's okay with that because if they start putting up shrines to Tzeentch or whatever it's not like she'll be unable to do anything about it because of this agreement.

may very well have her own agenda when it comes to this, but does Aksel have nay preference at all? Like, where does he seem to fall on the hope for prestige vs fear of prosecution axis?

Click to shrink...

If he had a preference, he wouldn't be leaving it to Mathilde. He's aware that he knows next to nothing about Elves or College politics, so he's trusting the decision to Mathilde.

If this is the Brass Keep, is Reikland meant to be Middenland here?

Click to shrink...

No, it was a land grab during the Time of Three Emperors.

Anyhow on a different topic, @Boney currently Haletha is covered under minor gods of the empire in our library, does opening contact with the Nordlander Hedgewise open up the ability to buy more books on her off them once the purchase round rolls around again?

Click to shrink...

No, there aren't any books to buy.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

We do? We have the right to give authorisation to representatives of a foreign nation to build infrastructures in another foreign nation?

Click to shrink...

That's not quite what we're negotiating here. If Kislev gives us permission to build waystones on their land, then the people who build those waystones have to be House Tindomiel (unless they can't for some reason), and they'd have the right to design it how they wish, upto and including making it a shrine to their goddess. We're not giving them permission to go onto other peoples land and start building whatever they want. They still have to be invited.

Essentially, they want to be the primary contractors and have to freedom to add sacred elements as they wish. If Kislev doesn't want Hekarti waystones, they either have to make their own without the waystone project or just not have waystones at all.

 

[HanChenYou]

Hmm. We did indeed place runes of all kinds of gods on our staff and College Wizards often do so during enchantments. Adding Hekarti's on Waystones can be explained as just more of the same.

Click to shrink...

Great point.

I seriously think we should actually take the dedication option.

Additionally, actually building new waystones is a huge enough deal (push back troll country anyone?) that I think we'd have enough room to negotiate with whomever is getting them.

This isn't a shark bite problem (to use entrepreneur language) this is an oncoming landslide or onrushing train.

"You have to cover it with magical and mystical symbols to make it work? Sure! Not a problem as long as it does it's job!

 

[HanChenYou]

I'd like to point out that we do have the authority to make this decision because of our status as a Lady Magister, but you're right in that there would be major consequences to letting them extend their cult into other nations.

Click to shrink...

Also, because we are controlling a "startup" that has massive latitude to design a solution to an existing and existential problem, we also absolutely have the authority to make this a pre-condition of certain countries getting access to new waystones.

 

[K von Carstein]

I seriously think we should actually take the dedication option.

Click to shrink...

It's a dedication to a Cytharai goddess. Having that much power coursing through them could have bad consequences. I'd rather not risk empowering Hekarti.

 

[TreP]

I seriously think we should actually take the dedication option.

Click to shrink...

I mean, it's not the problem about "How to explain occult symbols on Waystone?", it's more about "Should we make any promises about dedicating Waystone to Cytharai goddes when we have no idea how they work?"

 

[mathymancer]

@Boney, can we grill Aksel on Halétha? The Nordland Hedgefolk aren't a mystery cult (right?) so he should be willing to give us details even without the Father, and with the Father active I imagine he'll be even more forthcoming.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

It's a dedication to a Cytharai goddess. Having that much power coursing through them could have bad consequences. I'd rather not risk empowering Hekarti.

Click to shrink...

Mathlann is a Cytharai god, and he's one of the most important gods in the Empire. I agree that handing over so much influence to Hekarti isn't great, and would have consequences, but it wouldn't be devastating.

We still shouldn't do it, but the Cytharai=bad isn't really an argument we can make. I don't want it because I don't want humans worshipping elven gods period, and I think both the Lady and the Old Widow (and definitely Thungni) would object to Her presence in Their lands, and because I'm not sure I trust Tindomiel with all that influence.

 

[K von Carstein]

Mathlann is a Cytharai god, and he's one of the most important gods in the Empire. I agree that handing over so much influence to Hekarti isn't great, and would have consequences, but it wouldn't be devastating.

Click to shrink...

I agree with your other reasons, but isn't the fact that Manaan and Mathlann are the same god disputed? And Manaan isn't exactly a nice god.

 

[The Phoenixian]

And lost runes could serve as proofs of lost principles that can be used to reverse engineer other lost lore, which can unlock other combinations.

Click to shrink...

Mmmmm... And more than that, if Runelore's big secret is that it's essentially equivalent to Classical Computing it could go a long way to explaining its secrets and properties, methinks.

The winds of magic reflect the minds of thinking beings, after all, so how does that reflection change if you create a being to house them that thinks in a manner totally and utterly unlike a neuromorphic mind? For instance, neurons, at the most fundamental level, work based on connections and associations, which makes them supremely good at things like pattern recognition and coordination of motion and efficiency of energy consumption, while the logic systems of classical computing is instead really, really good at math and other numerical operations.

If you have something that doesn't think at all like an animal's neuromorphic mind interacting with magic then of course it won't break down into the eight winds --- defined as they are by their connections and associations --- no matter how much power it throws around. Certainly, it may still break, and may break in quite spectacular and novel ways*, but those specific modes of failure won't be your problem. It even fits with the "Dwarves as a people of stone" metaphor to a degree: The old joke about classical computing and semiconductors as being how we taught stone to think.

So, yeah, I'm not sure whether this metaphor will stand up any further than a few hours fancy, but nevertheless suddenly I find myself contemplating the possibility of Thungni as a shorter, stockier, bearded Alan Turing.

*It will not turn against you: It has no will of its own, but it may carry out your words far beyond your intent.
*It will not falter or balk, but it will work itself to destruction to fulfill its role if you do not tell it when to stop.
*It will not grow, shrink, or shift of its own accord, but will draw however much power is needed for the task assigned. If that is more than you can afford, or more than it can safely hold, more fool you.
*It does precisely and exactly what it was made to. No more. No less. If your hand erred in the making, it will err in the doing.

 

[HanChenYou]

It's a dedication to a Cytharai goddess. Having that much power coursing through them could have bad consequences. I'd rather not risk empowering Hekarti.

Click to shrink...

I think we can be pretty sure that the wind magic will still be sent to The Great Vortex, at least the vast majority of it.

I mean, it's not the problem about "How to explain occult symbols on Waystone?", it's more about "Should we make any promises about dedicating Waystone to Cytharai goddes when we have no idea how they work?"

Click to shrink...

I think we know enough to take a gamble that this will not, say, divert all the power to Hekarti instead of pouring it harmlessly into the warp.

 

[TreP]

I don't want it because I don't want humans worshipping elven gods period, and I think both the Lady and the Old Widow (and definitely Thungni) would object to Her presence in Their lands, and because I'm not sure I trust Tindomiel with all that influence.

Click to shrink...

We don't even know if and how Waystones and Gods influence each other. And until we do, it would be best to keep any God, no matter how good they are, away from any possible future Waystone.

 

[Mopman43]

If the Cytharai are the gods of the world as it is, and the Cadai are the gods of the world as you wish it could be, then if anything I'd rather dedicate Waystones to a Cadai god, as the Waystones are basically the ultimate expression of trying to change the 'world that is' into the 'world that could be'.

 

[Nurgle]

I think we may want to go with the enchanter now that I have had some time to think about it. Right now the best enchanter we have is Mathilde. Who is a regular human enchanter. We have magical theory covered by the Grey lords, runes by Thorek, the colleges hopefully filling in the gaps , hedgewise the liminal realms , but we do not have the expertise of a enchanter who has centuries to Millenia practicing their craft.

 

[K von Carstein]

I think we can be pretty sure that the wind magic will still be sent to The Great Vortex, at least the vast majority of it.

Click to shrink...

The vast majority, yes. But if even a very small percentage is used by the goddess, its still a big empowerment.

I think we know enough to take a gamble that this will not, say, divert all the power to Hekarti instead of pouring it harmlessly into the warp.

Click to shrink...

No one is saying that all the power will go to Hekarti. But we don't know if it possible that dedication will empower her, and if it does how much will get absorbed. Until we know more about the subject, we shouldn't do that.

Even without dedication, it would also give a massive influence to that house. Said house who isn't likely to be primordial to the Project (we already have Grey Lord, Runelord and many others).

 

[Boney]

@Boney, can we grill Aksel on Halétha? The Nordland Hedgefolk aren't a mystery cult (right?) so he should be willing to give us details even without the Father, and with the Father active I imagine he'll be even more forthcoming.

Click to shrink...

This will probably be a social action possibility.

 

[WorldSlayer]

It sounds like Tindomiel are willing to set up waystones for free and just want the prestige. Honestly if they want to take up the expense then I'm perfectly fine with that.

If things are as good as they sound then I'm totally willing to offer them up basically anywhere they like.

Spoiler: It sounds like Tindomiel are willing to set up waystones for free?

I'm inclined to be fine offering Tindomiel right of first refusal. However, it depends on the terms involved. My first thought is that if it really is as straightforward as it sounds then it isn't really worth all that much (monetarily) in this kind of situation due to how the involved organizations are structured.

This is the sort of thing that's going to get pretty weirdly complex because almost everyone involved has their own in-house teams that are involved in the project and probably willing to do it for existing wages and have supplies given by the government siphoned through their local magical organization. This ultimately means that Tindomiel's first refusal is going to be against insanely low prices that they can't reasonably make money on, basically screwing them through the power of lawyers and accounting.

Unless Tindomiel is willing to take on the costs of setting up waystones themselves and just want the prestige of getting their names on waystones in notable locations it doesn't feel like something particularly desirable for them. On the other hand that prestige very well might be all they want.

 

[picklepikkl]

What a lovely thing to wake up to after a difficult night (I've had about 48 hours of on-and-off tension headaches that, at their worst, feel like I'm being squeezed in a vise).

Unless I am missing something huge here, I think I have to vote No on House Tindomiel, because of one issue: pacing. We know how slowly the Elder Races take things that they think are important. Giving them the monopoly on Waystone construction anywhere outside their own territory is just asking for a culture clash writ very large, as we go "please hurry" and they go "we are hurrying."

Your mind goes over the range of possible responses of Waystones going up honouring the Hydra Queen. "If we have as much success as I hope, then such an agreement could significantly bottleneck the entire project."

He nods, conceding the point. "Right of first refusal, then. If we aren't able to supply the required expertise, then you can turn to whoever else may be available."

Click to shrink...

I don't believe this means "if we can't fill the entire order you have simultaneously, only part of it, you can go elsewhere". If it does (i.e. if it means that we can have Tindomiel working on as many Waystones as they can do at a time and other people working on others), I would be more sanguine about it.

Even if I'm wrong about how much of a pain they'd be to work with, we absolutely cannot promise them the Old World. That's a great way to sink our cred with the Karaz Ankor. The most ambitious plan I'd be willing to go with is the human parts of the Old World: the Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev. If we reach the stretch goal of "new Waystones" and we want them in dwarf territory or feeding into dwarf megaprojects, we cannot go promising the right of construction to someone else, let alone elves they do not yet know or trust.

EDIT: Wait, I'm a goddamn idiot:

Scope - House Tindomiel will have right of first refusal for providing the Wind-based aspects of constructing Waystones within:

Click to shrink...

Wind-based aspects. Not the whole thing. OK, I still don't love Old World, I think it would still make them unhappy to partner with Eonir and not Colleges, but it's less of an obvious disaster in the making.