Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
K von Carstein said:
From what I understand, Rafin means that the exact consequences of a wrongly done ritual should vary according to the exact part of the ritual you botched, and not always be the same no matter the mistake.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Take it up with the book writers then. I'm not GW or Cubicle 7 or whatever damn company GW outsource their book writing to. The rituals have their consequences that are the result of the creation process. In order to do something, you have to say what your intended effect is and what the consequence of you failing it has to turn out to be. You perform the research process, you roll the dice for research, then you roll on tables to see what comes up. The tables might give you additional consequences, additional ingredients, change the requirements, or be a perfect success. You then proceed to the next step or repeat the process until you have a complete ritual. Once the ritual is complete, it has concrete effects. That's it. That's all I know.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Actually having somewhere to escape to should something like the End Times happen would be an ultimate victory
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
From what I remember, The Lady of The Lake has her own sub-realm called Alvion or similar, I think. It where she keeps souls she's collected, where the damsels train, where she keeps the males with magical talent... Anyway, I'm not sure how much a success it was. I think the connection was broken during The End Times, and there's been no sign of The Lady in AoS, so

Being able to live in a separate sub-dimension sounds great, but it has too many potential issues. Can food be grown there? Does the realm have natural resources? How easy would it be for Chaos to tear it to shreds? Many questions, no answers.
 
Codex said:
"As a player, your first step in ritual research is to define your goal. What ends would your ritual bring about in the best of all possible worlds, and what casting characteristics would it have? The written expression of this goal is called the Ideal. The Ideal is defined just as a ritual is, with all the same statistics. Begin creating the Ideal by writing out the following ritual characteristics:
Type: All rituals created according to these rules will be of the Arcane type.
Arcane Language: This is typically Magick, though if you know the Daemonic or Arcane Elf language and have at least one measure of skill mastery in it, you may choose either of those instead.
Description: What happens if the ritual is successfully cast.
Consequences: What happens if the ritual is not a success.
Ingredients: The material elements that must be assembled and used to cast the ritual. Conditions: Requirements of timing, location, target, or anything else."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The first three words are important here. This isn't describing the diegetic process of ritual creation, it's describing the process by which you, the person playing the game, can perform the task of creating a component for use in that game. I don't think the in-setting wizards are deciding the fail states like this.
 
Dragonofelder said:
From what I remember, The Lady of The Lake has her own sub-realm called Alvion or similar, I think. It where she keeps souls she's collected, where the damsels train, where she keeps the males with magical talent... Anyway, I'm not sure how much a success it was. I think the connection was broken during The End Times, and there's been no sign of The Lady in AoS, so

Being able to live in a separate sub-dimension sounds great, but it has too many potential issues. Can food be grown there? Does the realm have natural resources? How easy would it be for Chaos to tear it to shreds? Many questions, no answers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Lady is implied to exist, somehow. The Stormcast Eternals have a group of Knights called the "Knights-Questor", who are basically the Grail Knights of AoS except they follow Sigmar. They wield sword and shield and are outside the standard military structure of the Eternals, dedicated to performing special missions given to them by Sigmar. They are heavily implied to be inspired by the Lady's Knights from the Old World.

What's strange is that sometimes, there are Knights-Questor who don't get visions and orders from Sigmar. Instead, some unknown entity beseeches them to help the needy and perform virtuous quests that have nothing to do with Sigmar. These knights are called Errant-Questor, and they are a source of mystery to all but perhaps Sigmar, who refuses to place them back in line and lets them be for whatever reason.

My personal interpretation of this is that the Lady still somehow sends visions to people.
 
Saidoro said:
The first three words are important here. This isn't describing the diegetic process of ritual creation, it's describing the process by which you, the person playing the game, can perform the task of creating a component for use in that game. I don't think the in-setting wizards are deciding the fail states like this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Perhaps, but then again, the point that there are set consequences still stand. Once a ritual is set, the consequences are established and are constant in nature.
 
Dragonofelder said:
From what I remember, The Lady of The Lake has her own sub-realm called Alvion or similar, I think. It where she keeps souls she's collected, where the damsels train, where she keeps the males with magical talent... Anyway, I'm not sure how much a success it was. I think the connection was broken during The End Times, and there's been no sign of The Lady in AoS, so

Being able to live in a separate sub-dimension sounds great, but it has too many potential issues. Can food be grown there? Does the realm have natural resources? How easy would it be for Chaos to tear it to shreds? Many questions, no answers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In The Backrooms at least, farming is possible even by randos who got shunted in there by total accident, so actually farmer(Jades, Halflings, etc.) should have no problems. The Liminal Archive wiki's Level 0(which I've nicknamed Infinite Zero as it's an infinite plane with infinite additional infinite planes accessible through cylinders accessible through steel doors, as opposed to the Infinite Cylinder, which is a 600 million mile zone with infinite additional instances up and down accessed the same way, and Finite Zero, the original incarnation, which is a solitary instance of the Infinite Cylinder's floors) explicitly has farming going on, and a steady supply of Almond Water can be found.
 
Last edited:
Codex said:
These knights are called Errant-Questor, and they are a source of mystery to all but perhaps Sigmar, who refuses to place them back in line and lets them be for whatever reason.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My only exposure to AoS is secondhand, but a lot of what I've heard paints the picture that Sigmar would be eager to have the other gods of the Old World back.

It's a nice contrast to some of the more... supremacist elements of the Cult in WHF.
 
Codex said:
The Lady is implied to exist, somehow. The Stormcast Eternals have a group of Knights called the "Knights-Questor", who are basically the Grail Knights of AoS except they follow Sigmar. They wield sword and shield and are outside the standard military structure of the Eternals, dedicated to performing special missions given to them by Sigmar. They are heavily implied to be inspired by the Lady's Knights from the Old World.

What's strange is that sometimes, there are Knights-Questor who don't get visions and orders from Sigmar. Instead, some unknown entity beseeches them to help the needy and perform virtuous quests that have nothing to do with Sigmar. These knights are called Errant-Questor, and they are a source of mystery to all but perhaps Sigmar, who refuses to place them back in line and lets them be for whatever reason.

My personal interpretation of this is that the Lady still somehow sends visions to people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I like to think that it is because the Lady is actually infecting Sigmar and about to burst out of him like the chest-buster from Alien to the horror of all the formerly Imperial Stormcast as Bretonia gets the last laugh from beyond the grave. :V
 
Mopman43 said:
My only exposure to AoS is secondhand, but a lot of what I've heard paints the picture that Sigmar would be eager to have the other gods of the Old World back.

It's a nice contrast to some of the more... supremacist elements of the Cult in WHF.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sigmar is a bit full of himself, and kind of stupid, but he does kinda means well in AoS. He can be unwise, like how he trusted Nagash because desperate times call for desperate measures (look, an undead labor force is a great incentive. Nagash was a great architect. His legion of laborers never complained and were efficient to a deadly degree), but he is overall a good guy. He even got along with Gorkamorka after seven days of beating the snot out of each other, so he's familiar with the anime brand of friendship.
 
Codex said:
Perhaps, but then again, the point that there are set consequences still stand. Once a ritual is set, the consequences are established and are constant in nature.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You're right, insofar as we're trying to interpret the mechanics as communicating how the world works, each ritual definitely has one fixed consequence for failure. But Rafin's point that this seems intuitively strange stands, and I don't think people asking whether that's intended to communicate setting mechanics or whether it's intended to be a simplifying abstraction like hit points is unreasonable.
 
Codex said:
Snip
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did not know this, huh. So she's active somewhat, but not "announced" her presence, as it were. Interesting..
DragonParadox said:
I like to think that it is because the Lady is actually infecting Sigmar and about to burst out of him like the chest-buster from Alien to the horror of all the formerly Imperial Stormcast as Bretonia gets the last laugh from beyond the grave. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
....................oh I hate this. So much.
 
Codex said:
They're all Witch Hunters, but there are dozens of different organisations. There is a group in canon 2E called the Seekers, constructed by a shitty Grand Theogonist named Esmer after Volkmar's "death", where they explicitly seek out and attempt to implicate official Wizards and torch them. They tend to hunt the more vulnerable ones like Journeymen and Apprentices over the higher level mages who can protect themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Is there no oversight of the Witchhunter Collective?
 
Saidoro said:
You're right, insofar as we're trying to interpret the mechanics as communicating how the world works, each ritual definitely has one fixed consequence for failure. But Rafin's point that this seems intuitively strange stands, and I don't think people asking whether that's intended to communicate setting mechanics or whether it's intended to be a simplifying abstraction like hit points is unreasonable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It does not strike me as strange because I believe that it is in fact, a part of the in setting creation process. All magic has a price, and in order to perform such a powerful magical process such as a ritual, providing a consequence in case you fail sounds like an intriguing way to give yourself more power. "If I fail, this will happen" could be a method to give the ritual more oomph, because it stacks on top of the already existing risks of casting regular magic, which is a miscast. Nothing happens if you fail to cast a spell and don't miscast. Rituals will punish you for failing even if you don't miscast.

To be clear, this is my personal interpretation.
 
CornyBones said:
Is there no oversight of the Witchhunter Collective?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Lord-Protector is the nominal head of the Witch Hunters, with the post created by Magnus. He is supposed to be answerable to the Emperor and the Cult of Sigmar.

(When Volkmar became the Grand Theogonist, the LP at the time was rumored to be corrupted by chaos, and Volkmar dissolved the position and instituted 3 Witch-Hunter Generals, each in charge of a third of the Empire)

(This was all according to Tome of Corruption, I believe other sources say other things- I know I've read somewhere before about a singular Witch-Hunter General that's in charge of all Witch Hunters with no one having been publicly known to hold the position, but I don't know the source for that off-hand)
 
BurnNote said:
Kragg's rune cannot be set to spar when rune the unknown is used, is that what you mean? I can't say I understand why that would be, but I guess that could be it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Kragg thought the Rune of the Unknown was a weird gimmicky Rune that would only be actually useful for strange Umgi who might want to have a weapon without it being visible, and so why would you need to use it while sparring? Spar with the Runes off, then turn them back on and put the sword away. Mathilde building a whole martial style that's only useful for one specific sword to take advantage of an unexpected side-benefit of the Rune of the Unknown of that is something he didn't account for.

The reason it has an off switch at all is because of things like if it gets damaged, if you can't turn the Oops All Cannonballs rune off you'd obliterate one hammer and anvil with every hit while you try to get the dent or nick out.

CornyBones said:
Whats the ranking system for Witch Hunters? They get called that collectively, but it's got to be a diferent sort that investigates Royal Wizards as apposed to torching local necromancers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Holy Order of the Templars of Sigmar were granted authority by Magnus the Pious to hunt worshippers of proscribed Gods, unsanctioned magic-users, daemons, and undead throughout the Empire, and were somewhat secularized when he did so by having a single person in charge who reports to the Emperor, but it's slipped back under the influence of the Cult of Sigmar since then. Others are members of a specific Order within a Cult and draw their authority from that, others are chartered by secular authorities and have limited jurisdiction over the lands or peoples that sponsor controls.

CornyBones said:
Is there no oversight of the Witchhunter Collective?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They're all tied in to the power structures of the Empire. The leader of the Templars of Sigmar report to the Emperor, the other Cult Witch Hunters report to their Cult, and the secular Witch Hunters report to their employer.

Rafin said:
That excuse works for a Dwarf with relatively little contact to Humans. Or one who grew up that way. It might even work for an Imperial Dwarf who mostly lives his life in a Dwarven district. But Arkat Fooger is born to an influential House of Marienburg and his job is to compete with and create policy besides 14 other Humans. Even if he thinks this way, he should have learned by now that talking this way to the wrong (speak average) Human just makes his life harder for no good reason. And he's never met Mathilde, this Grey Lady Magister who has lived among the Dwarves. He doesn't know if she's the type who is tired of hearing this shit, or who has proven herself to the locals while also showing disapproval of "candid" racism, or anything. So either Arkat does know just a bit more about Mathilde than is obvious, or he let his guard down while in Dwarfland, or he's just that openly racist and so successful that he doesn't need to care, or (and I think that's the most likely one) he's trying to paint a certain picture and come across in a certain way that distances himself and his House from any culpable elements in Marienburg and even from the Imperial-hated city as a whole while seeming honest and candid to the point of bluntness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You don't have to be racist against humans to think that there's fundamental problems with human gerontocracy.
 
Rafin said:
But a different failure in the steps should again result in a different effect.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think this is the core of the issue- it's a common sense point about physical things that we can't actually say applies to magic. It also requires thinking of magic as a reactive tool than something having it's own personality, which is what consistent failure results from inconsistent failure conditions implies to me: a personality judging and handing out "failed" stamps rather than a tower collapsing or something mechanical from the inputs.
 
Codex said:
I made a post about rituals a while ago. The one I'm talking about is Rain of Blood:

The only hiccup there is the spell is classified as "Necromancy".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm hoping that if we come across this ritual in Drakenhof, we can reverse engineer it and make it do the opposite effect without dark magic, so a success makes it rain holy water and we don't need to touch Dhar.
 
Another thing about such Liminal Spaces, the Archive wiki has The Backrooms as merely the eldest and largest, they occur naturally. Perhaps the precursors to the Shadow Order we're familiar with would be akin to the Jades managing the Waystone network, but with guarding the Limspaces, in part because they're some of the only people who can reliably enter or leave a lot of them. For whatever reason, humans are the only ones who naturally no-clip(basically, electromagnetic repulsive force glitches, which is actually supposed to happen 1/7,000,000 IRL, which, uh...) though Ulgus who know about it can use the same techniques the human Shadow Wizards do to enter or leave. Morathi and Drycha, for example.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Another thing about such Liminal Spaces, the Archive wiki has The Backrooms as merely the eldest and largest, they occur naturally. Perhaps the precursors to the Shadow Order we're familiar with would be akin to the Jades managing the Waystone network, but with guarding the Limspaces, in part because they're some of the only people who can reliably enter or leave a lot of them. For whatever reason, humans are the only ones who naturally no-clip(basically, electromagnetic repulsive force glitches, which is actually supposed to happen 1/7,000,000 IRL, which, uh...) though Ulgus who know about it can use the same techniques the human Shadow Wizards do to enter or leave. Morathi and Drycha, for example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Two things, no that is not real at all and the creepypasta backrooms has no connection to Warhammer.
 
tygerbright said:
Two things, no that is not real at all and the creepypasta backrooms has no connection to Warhammer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Uh, I have no idea where I implied this was real, and the whole idea is an outgrowth of how the Grey College is set inside of a 'between' space. A Liminal Space, in other words. I wondered if other such spaces could occur naturally, and I drew on The Backrooms as the most famous example.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Uh, I have no idea where I implied this was real, and the whole idea is an outgrowth of how the Grey College is set inside of a 'between' space. A Liminal Space, in other words. I wondered if other such spaces could occur naturally, and I drew on The Backrooms as the most famous example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Believe he meant this.
ilbgar123 said:
(basically, electromagnetic repulsive force glitches, which is actually supposed to happen 1/7,000,000 IRL, which, uh...)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
There are elders who learn to take the long view from experience and give guidance to impatient short-sighted youth, and then there are those who focus on how they're not going to live that much longer anyway, so any future issues that pop up from prioritizing short-term gain wouldn't be their problem anyway, so who cares if you saddle the next generation with all of it?

Sadly, the second kind of elder seems to find its way into leadership positions more than the first, to everyone's detriment.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top