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3) Vampires aren't vulnerable to holy water
Tell that to whoever made the ritual, who clearly thought that holy water was enough of a deterrent to be scared of casting the spell. If holy water does nothing to Vampires, then the ritual's failure is non-consequential, and thus, a failure of game design.
2) That's only possible if you fail the ritual. And because it makes it rain in a five mile radius, will freak out everyone in the area if you successfully cast it. So instead of having a useful ritual with consequences you don't mind, you've got a ritual you're deliberately trying to fail, which sounds about as safe as trying to deliberately induce a miscast.
Rituals explicitly have a failure state that doesn't include a miscast. You only miscast on a "double, triple or quadruple". You could theoretically roll a single dice with the ritual, fail it, and not suffer a miscast. There's a spectrum of failure, and it's not all miscasts. I also find it funny that you're somehow saying a sudden rain of holy water is supposed to freak out people when it's supposed to be used against Vampires brazen enough to attack a particular location. People won't give a fuck if Sylvania receives a rain of holy water.
 
Here's the thing though, you don't need to force their loyalty. You can still use all the usual methods of inducing loyalty the order uses, which typically results in loyal magisters. Hell, you could even have them undergo the ritual and then wipe their memories of it. As long as the oath is relatively light they'd hopefully go their whole life without knowing about it.

Small problem with that, you now have paranoid people with magesight under a spell you put on them as apprentices without their knowledge. The odds of them not finding out are I would judge slim to none and even less so would they react well to it.
 
"By casting this spell you compel one who has sworn an oath and broken it (or who intends to break it) to carry out the letter and spirit of the vow. It matters not whether the oath was made in jest, under compulsion, or while utterly blind on drink. If this ritual is successfully cast, the oath will be carried out or the one who spoke the oath will literally kill himself trying. The oath-taker can carry out his promise with intelligence and guile and postpone action to an opportune moment, if relevant. He need not rush out and challenge a superior rival he has vowed to kill to a duel in broad daylight, for example, but might instead choose to attack from ambush when his chances of success will be improved." Page 168 Realms of Sorcery
Huh, that's an interesting phrasing. Kind of sounds like they have to *already* be or plan to be an oathbreaker?
 
Huh, that's an interesting phrasing. Kind of sounds like they have to *already* be or plan to be an oathbreaker?
Yes, that is something I considered. Maybe they have to already be planning to break the oath, and thus, if they decide to break the oath at a later date, nothing happens. Or maybe the ritual lingers and detects your oathbreaking. I can't be sure, but if you wanted to put a stringent limit on it, you could make it so that it's only effective moment of casting.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Back-fill.
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
 
Technically holy water isn't defined under the WFRP rules, but 'blessed water' is, which does automatic damage to any Undead it touches.
 
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Mathilde theoretically can get help with developing individual aspects of Branarhune it when that individual aspect can incorporate already-existing elements from elsewhere, but in that case it's something that she'll do automatically and there's no need for the thread to try to micromanage. What she can't get is someone to work alongside her in developing the entire style, because the base of it is half Greatsword and half Gazul Templar and she is literally the only person in the world who has that combination of styles, because it depends on a combination of runes that literally no other sword but hers has, and because you can't safely spar with Branulhune without deactivating the Runes Mathilde's style is trying to take advantage of.
I really enjoyed how frustrating Matty's fuel with Boris felt because neither of them can actually use their signature weapons in a sparing match because they are too deadly.
 
I don't believe we know whether Laurelorn's portion of the Network is linked to the rest. If it's not then improving the rest of the Network won;t fulfill their goals for the project at all, because they want to be able to use the Network to power magic.

We do know that, as they detected the reactivation of K8P's Waystone through the (indirect) connection their part of the network has with the dwarven part of the network. Bit are just regions of the wider Waystone network.

There is only one network based on what we know, but some nodes on the network are owned by specific people.
 
Boris killed a Manticore and a Treeman, not without help, but that is certainly impressive. I do like that the dice did their level best to make sure he got a good showing of how deadly he can be.
 
Rituals explicitly have a failure state that doesn't include a miscast. You only miscast on a "double, triple or quadruple". You could theoretically roll a single dice with the ritual, fail it, and not suffer a miscast. There's a spectrum of failure, and it's not all miscasts. I also find it funny that you're somehow saying a sudden rain of holy water is supposed to freak out people when it's supposed to be used against Vampires brazen enough to attack a particular location. People won't give a fuck if Sylvania receives a rain of holy water.
My head canon is that rituals don't have a single failure state, it makes no sense to me that something as complicated and precise as a ritual will always fail in exactly the same way if you do it wrong. So if you mess up the rain of blood ritual maybe you get holy water, or maybe you get a rain of fire or blazing sunlight.

That would also explain why they don't just spam the oathbreaker ritual, maybe it backfires and binds the caster or maybe it fails and forces the target to follow every oath they hear or to break any oath they take or etc, etc.
 
My head canon is that rituals don't have a single failure state, it makes no sense to me that something as complicated and precise as a ritual will always fail in exactly the same way if you do it wrong. So if you mess up the rain of blood ritual maybe you get holy water, or maybe you get a rain of fire or blazing sunlight.

That would also explain why they don't just spam the oathbreaker ritual, maybe it backfires and binds the caster or maybe it fails and forces the target to follow every oath they hear or to break any oath they take or etc, etc.
It makes about as much sense as rituals always having the exact same success state. If you want failures to be randomised, then the success should also be randomised.
 
It makes about as much sense as rituals always having the exact same success state. If you want failures to be randomised, then the success should also be randomised.
I dont see why? If I try to put a glass on a shelf, theres only one success state (glass on shelf) and countless failure states (glass broken, glass still in hand, glass on floor, glass broken on floor, glass on different shelf, etc) and thats a really simple operation that isnt meddling witht the fabric of the universe itself.
 
I dont see why? If I try to put a glass on a shelf, theres only one success state (glass on shelf) and countless failure states (glass broken, glass still in hand, glass on floor, glass broken on floor, glass on different shelf, etc) and thats a really simple operation that isnt meddling witht the fabric of the universe itself.
That... doesn't make sense. If your goal is to put glass on a shelf, then the failure state is glass is not on a shelf. There are countless ways for that glass to end up on a shelf, just as there are countless ways for the glass to not be on a shelf. It feels like you're picking and choosing what counts as success and failure to prove your point.
 
That... doesn't make sense. If your goal is to put glass on a shelf, then the failure state is glass is not on a shelf. There are countless ways for that glass to end up on a shelf, just as there are countless ways for the glass to not be on a shelf. It feels like you're picking and choosing what counts as success and failure to prove your point.
Yes? That is my point. Success and failure are judgements put on outcomes by people. If I want a ritual to do literally anything including nothing, then it always succeeds. If I want it to rain blood, then giving me 50 bucks and a milkshake is a failure.

Success cannot be random if only have one thing you want it to do.
 
That... doesn't make sense. If your goal is to put glass on a shelf, then the failure state is glass is not on a shelf. There are countless ways for that glass to end up on a shelf, just as there are countless ways for the glass to not be on a shelf. It feels like you're picking and choosing what counts as success and failure to prove your point.
I think the point is that while the failure state is "glass not on a shelf," there are a lot of different ways that can manifest for the final state of the glass. Whereas in a successful case, however the glass got there, we know exactly where it is.

Like, okay, for another analogy...let's try something more abstract maybe? Say you've got the equation 2+x=4. Successfully solving it gives you the definite result of x=2. Somehow managing to solve it incorrectly could leave you with x=1, or x=100, or x=i, or whatever.

Or to try for a closer analogue, let's say you're trying to cook a meal. If you follow the recipe perfectly, you get the same meal every time. But if you fuck it up, maybe you add too much salt and it ends up really salty but otherwise fine. Or maybe you overcook it and end up with a charred mess. Et cetera.

The point is, if you're performing a process with exactly one desired outcome, there are a lot of possible other outcomes none of which are the one you wanted but also bearing relatively little resemblance to one another. Does any of that help clarify at all?
 
The real reason rituals have consistent failure states by the way, is because it's literally part of the Ritual creation process. I'll spare you the pages upon pages on details of Ritual creation, let me post a few things from the book:

"Rituals are Absolute: Whereas spells frequently give bonuses to tests, and the ultimate results still hinge on a die roll, rituals have absolute effects. If a ritual is successfully cast, there should be no question about what will happen.

Rituals are of Consequence: Beyond being powerful, and even beyond having Consequences, rituals are of consequence—they change lives, lands, and circumstances for good or bad." RoS Page 169

"As a player, your first step in ritual research is to define your goal. What ends would your ritual bring about in the best of all possible worlds, and what casting characteristics would it have? The written expression of this goal is called the Ideal. The Ideal is defined just as a ritual is, with all the same statistics. Begin creating the Ideal by writing out the following ritual characteristics:
Type: All rituals created according to these rules will be of the Arcane type.
Arcane Language: This is typically Magick, though if you know the Daemonic or Arcane Elf language and have at least one measure of skill mastery in it, you may choose either of those instead.
Description: What happens if the ritual is successfully cast.
Consequences: What happens if the ritual is not a success.
Ingredients: The material elements that must be assembled and used to cast the ritual. Conditions: Requirements of timing, location, target, or anything else."

"The following modifiers apply in all iterations of research.
–10% If, in the current Draft, the Consequences of a harmful ritual are—in the GM's judgement—less severe than having the effects applying to the caster rather than the intended target.
+5% If the currently operative Consequences include the caster's death.
+3% For each Ingredient and Consequence in your current Draft that is linked to your ritual's effects.
+3% If you have the second and final measure of skill mastery in Speak Arcane Language (Magick).
+3% For each of the following talents you possess: Aethyric Attunement, Dark Lore, Dark Magic, or Luck.
+1% For each of the following skills you possess: Academic Knowledge (any, with a bonus for each) or Magical Sense."

There is a list of possible consequences, ingredients, and a number of other considerations and other things that I've cut out, but the reason Rituals fail the same way is similar to why they succeed the same way. It's part of the creation process. You can miscast while casting a ritual, no doubt about that, but the Ritual's effects are absolute once it has been completed. It has to be, otherwise it wouldn't work.
 
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They are great tributaries to existing network but they flat out cannot replace them.

Assertion without evidence. Please provide references or do not present your hypothesis as absolute fact.

I don't no. The major problem of waystone network is not that the waystones aren't managing to draw stagnant magic from their area of influence (althought it is, in part) it is that there is not enough of the Stones to have a proper network going on anymore.

Again, assertion without evidence. This is possible, however, knowing it to be true depends on a bunch of research rolls we have yet to make.

I don't know where you think you are getting this word of God on waystones, but it's annoying to be presented with it in the form "this is the truth, you are dumb" rather than "this is what I think is going on."

Its as good as admitting failure, because the option of planting those trees on the entire globe has always existed.

No, it hasn't. Not only do the trees contain precious metals and indicate where deposits of precious metals exist, making them VERY short-lived in the grand scheme of things, we don't know what germination or growth requires. Discovering a way for the trees to be used elsewhere would be a legitimate advance.

I dont see why? If I try to put a glass on a shelf, theres only one success state (glass on shelf) and countless failure states (glass broken, glass still in hand, glass on floor, glass broken on floor, glass on different shelf, etc) and thats a really simple operation that isnt meddling witht the fabric of the universe itself.

I'm interested in your mental model of spellcasting here, such that "move an object from one place to another" is a good model of how complex rituals work, and the failure states that can be expected.

The simplicity of it suggests it won't map well.
 
because you can't safely spar with Branulhune without deactivating the Runes Mathilde's style is trying to take advantage of.
Could you clarify this? Because I'm nearly certain you've said the sword can be used in sparring. I think the context was specifically about the rune of Kragg, but that also seems like the big danger, whereas the rune of the unknown doesn't make it more difficult, so long as your protective gear is actually protective (ie, Kraggs rune doesn't just shear through), and the rune of superior skill doesn't play into it either because magic items aren't that common, and even there it deactivates rather than destroys.
 
I don't think runes can be deactivated as a general rule? Kinda defeats the purpose of having to carve then into fixed, unchanging physical material to allow them to be "powered" or "unpowered" without changing anything about the physical structure.

I'm the one who had been pushing substance of shadows plus training swords plus fighting in the dark to get a sparring setup that allows Mathilde to practice without killing people.
 
I don't think runes can be deactivated as a general rule? Kinda defeats the purpose of having to carve then into fixed, unchanging physical material to allow them to be "powered" or "unpowered" without changing anything about the physical structure.

I'm the one who had been pushing substance of shadows plus training swords plus fighting in the dark to get a sparring setup that allows Mathilde to practice without killing people.
Boney has said that the sword has a sparring setting. I imagine it's just deactivating all the existing runes on the sword. Also, yes there are examples of runes being powered and unpowered. Our belt has a rune that deactivates once it's used once, returning after 12 hours. There are examples in Realm of Sorcery of "Temporary Runes", where Runesmiths can carve runes into objects for one time use. It's much faster than regular Runesmithing, only requiring hours of work instead of months or years.
 
I don't think runes can be deactivated as a general rule? Kinda defeats the purpose of having to carve then into fixed, unchanging physical material to allow them to be "powered" or "unpowered" without changing anything about the physical structure.
Well, The Eyes of Grimnir were inactive, and then Thorgrim reactivated them.
And Branalhune has a sparring mode.

So it's possible to do. How difficult it is, is another matter though
 
Could you clarify this? Because I'm nearly certain you've said the sword can be used in sparring. I think the context was specifically about the rune of Kragg, but that also seems like the big danger, whereas the rune of the unknown doesn't make it more difficult, so long as your protective gear is actually protective (ie, Kraggs rune doesn't just shear through), and the rune of superior skill doesn't play into it either because magic items aren't that common, and even there it deactivates rather than destroys.
Kragg's Rune has a sparring setting so you don't turn your sparring partner into paste, but if you're using Rune of the Unknown, it can't be set to 'spar'.
 
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