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I wonder if the gods are basically just spirits but bigger, who get worship in exchange for the power they grant to specific followers

Possibly—there's a word of Boney that entities that would be considered a spirit in Kislev are treated as minor gods in the Empire.

Yes, though where the bar is set between spirit and God varies from place to place, and in the Empire it's set fairly low. There's a whole bunch of River Gods in the Empire that would be considered spirits elsewhere, which at first glance makes the Empire seem pretty lacking in spirits compared to places like Kislev.

So Kislev has more spirits and fewer gods than the Empire, because where the Empire draws the line between the two is different to how Kislev does it.

If the only difference between a spirit and a minor deity is regional classification, it's possible that the difference between a spirit and a major god is simply one of scale.
 
Possibly—there's a word of Boney that entities that would be considered a spirit in Kislev are treated as minor gods in the Empire.



So Kislev has more spirits and fewer gods than the Empire, because where the Empire draws the line between the two is different to how Kislev does it.

If the only difference between a spirit and a minor deity is regional classification, it's possible that the difference between a spirit and a major god is simply one of scale.
…I wonder what the Hag Witch is going to think of Mathilde and her relationship with Ranald.
 
Karag Dum: the Third Schism of the Karaz Ankor, including Observations on the Shadowgave, by L.M. Mathilde Weber (Grey), Thane Borek Forkbeard (Karag Dum), Prince Asarnil (Caledor), L.M.(E). Ljiljana (H.L.V.), Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider (Karak Kadrin), Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson (S·T·T·L), Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra (K. Taal's Fury), Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger (Ulrikadrin), M. Egrimm van Horstmann (Light), M. Esber (Amber) & M. Seija (Amber), M. Johann (Gold), M. Maximilian de Gaynesford (Gold), M. Michel Solmann (Celestial), J. Alexandra Kohler (Bright), J. Barbitus (Light), J. Citharus (Light), J. Cyrston von Danling (Jade), J. Timpania (Light), 2487.

Observations on the Borderlands of Chaos, by L.M. Mathilde Weber (Grey), M. Egrimm van Horstmann (Light), M. Esber (Amber) & M. Seija (Amber), M. Johann (Gold), M. Maximilian de Gaynesford (Gold), M. Michel Solmann (Celestial), J. Alexandra Kohler (Bright), J. Barbitus (Light), J. Citharus (Light), J. Cyrston von Danling (Jade), J. Timpania (Light), 2487.
Huh, did Hubert not contribute to the observations? I can't seem to find him here even when all the other wizards are listed.
 
Widespread dominance of a single monolithic, monotheist, patriarchal, and heteronormative religion that made a concerted effort to establish itself as the sole gatekeeper of legitimate sexual expression by forbidding anything outside of the marriages only they could perform, and bending the interpretations and translations of its holy texts to justify this. Examples:

Text: Onan killed by God
Surface reading: "When God says knock up your dead brother's widow, don't pull out at the last second."
Interpretation: Masturbation is bad.

Text: Sodom and Gomorrah
Surface reading: "When actual literal Angels come to town, don't try to gang-rape them."
Interpretation: Homosexuality is bad, promiscuity is bad.

Text: Paul condemning the contemporary Greek practice of sexual relationships between grown men and young boys and inventing a neologism to describe it.
Surface reading: "Don't rape children."
Interpretation: Homosexuality is bad.

Text: Levitical code
Surface reading: "Crop rotation bad, eating shrimp bad, blended fabric bad, selective breeding of livestock bad, bisexuality bad..."
Interpretation: Let's just zoom right in on that last one and ignore all the other things that would be awkward to enforce.
(I've also seen arguments that the relevant passage was actually part of a laundry list of every kind of incest that was forbidden, but I don't know enough about translating Hebrew to say whether that's the case with any confidence)

If anyone wants to argue any of the individual points in the spoiler box, really think about whether you seriously believe any productive result is going to come out of doing so. Doctrinal debates that have been raging for centuries are not going to be finally put to rest in an extended derail of a Warhammer quest.
I had to check the one about Crop rotation because i was aware of the others, and while weird none are particularly harmful, while that one is obviously shooting yourself on the foot.

And apparently the text is:
Keep my decrees.
Do not mate different kinds of animals.
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

And damn, everything else had to be referencing sexual orientation except the one that would end up condemning heterosexuality
While I don't know anything about crop rotation, I have heard an explanation for the no multiclassing fabrics one. Basically, the two fabrics in question were wool and linen, and mixing them is an incredibly dumb thing to do. They're useful for different things, and need to be washed in different ways, so mixing them is the worst of both worlds.
What's particularly interesting about the commonly cited "pointless" parts of Levitical Law is that they're about not being an asshole to your community, because food and fuel production was a shared burden for the entire community. So if there's one asshole who is broadcasting two kinds of seed, they'll grow at different rates and be an absolute pain in the ass to harvest without destroying one or both parts of the crop and with the varieties of grain they were growing and the farming practices they kept, it would have permitted more weeds and pests. Likewise, don't fuck around with the community's cattle breeding efforts by mucking with the lineages. notanautomaton addressed how it was wool and linen that were prohibited from mixing, and that's again to avoid wasting material and not only the time you spent on it (which the community supported you through) but the time of everyone who has to try to maintain this unholy garment. "Don't plow with an ox and a donkey" -- because you'll fuck up the plow, your lines will be crooked, and you'll probably injure one or both of the animals, and again it's the entire community that has to deal with it. Prohibitions on shellfish or shrimp or the like? Gathering and preparing a given amount food from them takes more time than fish, and they don't keep as well with the methods available at the time -- don't waste the community's resources, which includes your time.

The bits about "men not laying with women" were also rather unusually translated from the older sources, where in its context it reads much more like a prohibition against male homosexual rape, with a possibility that it's expressly written in the context of the prohibitions on incestuous relationships.
 
Can we please move on? This isn't the kind of topic I'm comfortable with in my Warhammer escapism. At least nobody brought up Islam. That would hit too close to home.
 
So changing topics completely, while we know Mathilde generally wears her wizard robes everywhere I do wonder what kind of outfit she'd wear if she had to pretend to be an ordinary noble woman.
 
So changing topics completely, while we know Mathilde generally wears her wizard robes everywhere I do wonder what kind of outfit she'd wear if she had to pretend to be an ordinary noble woman.
She'd wear her wizard robes under the assumption that wizard-chique is still a thing. Only to find out it fell out of fashion literally 3 days before she could take deliberate advantage of it.
 
So changing topics completely, while we know Mathilde generally wears her wizard robes everywhere I do wonder what kind of outfit she'd wear if she had to pretend to be an ordinary noble woman.
Really fancy robes? :V

More realistically, she would probably just throw on an illusion, and the specifics would probably depend on the occasion and what level of noble she's pretending to be. Also the personality she is affecting, because that could also influence how extravagant or frugal she's being. Even stuff like dresses or riding leathers could be equally viable.
 
So changing topics completely, while we know Mathilde generally wears her wizard robes everywhere I do wonder what kind of outfit she'd wear if she had to pretend to be an ordinary noble woman.
Go to Heidi for courtly fashion advice and wind up being dressed to the nines by her handmaidens?
"Dame Weber, are you certain you won't try this gown with a more daring décolletage? It's quite the fashion this season."
 
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Go to Heidi for courtly fashion advice and wind up being dressed to the nines by her handmaidens?
Mathilde would literally teleport away if they tried getting handsy. No anime doll-dressing for her.

Now, if she's allowed to dress herself and they're all just chipping in with advice, maybe. But I'm skeptical she would even go looking. Mathilde knows how people dress, enough to identify rank and role at least. She just doesn't usually do it herself.
 
Mathilde would literally teleport away if they tried getting handsy. No anime doll-dressing for her.

Now, if she's allowed to dress herself and they're all just chipping in with advice, maybe. But I'm skeptical she would even go looking. Mathilde knows how people dress, enough to identify rank and role at least. She just doesn't usually do it herself.
Identifying the purpose of clothing and recognising uniform signifiers and the underlying implications and meanings behind those choices are standard practice for Greys, who learn to read between the lines, but that doesn't mean she knows how to dress herself. She's spent all her life wearing one costume with nary a care for any concern in regards to aesthetic preferences or a desire to achieve an intended effect, and the one time she fretted over clothing was the date with Panoramia simply because it was "the thing to do", because she always knew what she would wear.

I doubt Mathilde knows much about coordination or enhancing/accentuating features, and would likely do a lot of research before she comes to any sort of conclusion.

I do think Mathilde would look amazing on a suit though. Maybe that's just my bias. I think women in suits just look great, and we already have evidence of that in the Fan art threadmark.
 
She's spent all her life wearing one costume with nary a care for any concern in regards to aesthetic preferences or a desire to achieve an intended effect, and the one time she fretted over clothing was the date with Panoramia simply because it was "the thing to do", because she always knew what she would wear.
She did put some effort into making herself look presentable for her knighting ceremony in Stirland, even though that effort seemed to go into "make sure everyone, including the ones with the thickest skulls, know she's Grey Order and proud of it" rather than anything else.
 
Identifying the purpose of clothing and recognising uniform signifiers and the underlying implications and meanings behind those choices are standard practice for Greys, who learn to read between the lines, but that doesn't mean she knows how to dress herself. She's spent all her life wearing one costume with nary a care for any concern in regards to aesthetic preferences or a desire to achieve an intended effect, and the one time she fretted over clothing was the date with Panoramia simply because it was "the thing to do", because she always knew what she would wear.
Mathilde hasn't dressed in clothing but her Grey Mage Robe often, but she has.
The city guards barely glance at a farmgirl napping in the back of a cart - you'd thought to change into something a little less attention-getting than your usual robes.
Once when spying on Stolpe.
You quickly change into the woman's drab and scratchy frock and try to figure out a way to smuggle your flamberge in before reluctantly stashing it under a bush with your cloak.
And again when she kidnapped Stolpe for example.
 
Mathilde hasn't dressed in clothing but her Grey Mage Robe often, but she has.

Once when spying on Stolpe.

And again when she kidnapped Stolpe for example.
I admit that I wasn't specific enough. Mathilde dresses up differently when in disguise because it's a disguise. She can't realistically dress as a Grey Wizard and continue to pretend she isn't one. We're talking about Mathilde fashion and her ability to dress up well as herself, not her ability to pretend to be someone else.
 
You know on the balance I wonder if it might be worth getting the Golds in on the project fully. I mean sure they would not have any waystone lore specifically that we know about, but one of their Lord Magisters might be good for translating over the various paradigms we are dealing with. they have a lot of experience with that from trying to translate their pre-Teclis Alchemy over and also things like the Hounds match the 'Hag witch worldview'. On the other hand we can just do that binding action already and see what we learn from the apparition

@Boney I know you said no magic books for now because they are militarily relevant, but does that apply to all magical subjects? Like if we wanted books on apparitions from the Eonir could we get them or do we need to do a library action? Or will it take more than that even, like wait until the Library is open and Norland is less of a threat to the Eonir. I am trying to gouge the book buying in light of the notion of getting on that binding action.
 
She has also disguised herself as Alys Schmidt a few times.

That said, I do find the idea that Mathilde has no idea what's fashionable and just throws on anything when in disguise, even if it doesn't match, very amusing.
 
@Boney I know you said no magic books for now because they are militarily relevant, but does that apply to all magical subjects? Like if we wanted books on apparitions from the Eonir could we get them or do we need to do a library action? Or will it take more than that even, like wait until the Library is open and Norland is less of a threat to the Eonir. I am trying to gouge the book buying in light of the notion of getting on that binding action.

There might be magical subjects that aren't militarily relevant and therefore could be available to Mathilde, but Apparitions would definitely be militarily relevant.
 
I admit that I wasn't specific enough. Mathilde dresses up differently when in disguise because it's a disguise. She can't realistically dress as a Grey Wizard and continue to pretend she isn't one. We're talking about Mathilde fashion and her ability to dress up well as herself, not her ability to pretend to be someone else.
Clearly what Mathilde should do when she needs to dress up nice is disguise herself as her entirely fictitious, much more fashionable twin.
 
I'm not sure how serious this is because of the emoji but Boney has adressed this too. She needs Thungni's blood in the veins of the body she's in now. The blood of any bodies her soul may have previously inhabited are irrelevant.
Is this a tradition thing or a magical/divine thing? Like is it practically possible but no one would go through with it? Or that Runes are like Divine spells where you need that God's approval?

Clearly what Mathilde should do when she needs to dress up nice is disguise herself as her entirely fictitious, much more fashionable twin.
I imagine her fictitious much more fashionable twin is as ridiculously bombastic as Mathilde. She's be wearing Drycha's butt as those coconut bras while applying dragon spit as conditioner then calling it high fashion to anyone who asks. Her pants are plain commoner pants though, it doesn't match but anyone who doesn't get it is an uncultured swine.
 
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