Humans and elves can change, they can let go and they can even forgive. All these things are necessary to change the ultimately losing paradigm of the whole setting, the dwarfs advantages enumerated above only allow them to endure, to draw out their end.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Humans and elves can change, they can let go and they can even forgive. All these things are necessary to change the ultimately losing paradigm of the whole setting, the dwarfs advantages enumerated above only allow them to endure, to draw out their end.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
It'd probably be a lot like that last bunch that got riled up immediately after we stuffed the ritual.
That didn't go super well for them.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Master Weber has already done one better than being written into the Book of Grudges.
[Grudges Avenged: +8]
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Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
As a member of the Worm fandom, I'm more than a little hostile toward people trying to pass off fanon and/or their personal headcanon as the actual canon of the setting. As far as I can tell, this is what you're doing by claiming knowledge of the processes of runecraft, and that any argument you've made rooted on your unsupported (that is to say, uncited) assertions ought to be dismissed on the basis of an invalid premise.
- Location
- Europe
This is provably wrong.
Dwarves are fully capable of adapting and changing. They're also capable of working and changing the world for the better. You'll notice, just as an example, that they've invented Gunpowder, prepare to retake holds, forge and maintain bonds with other species and between themselves, create new clans and thus social structures and far more.
The fact that they can't deal with the Warhammer setting is not a unique product of their culture or mindset. It's just caused by the fact that the Warhammer setting is absurdly lethal and stronger enemies will often look for stronger targets.
Humanity can't deal with the Warhammer setting either, look at their response to the Skaven or their manifest inability to root out Chaos.
This isn't unique and Grudges are in practice a relatively minor burden and benefit. It is the setting itself that is killing them and no amount of forgotten Grudges will change that.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I don't want that to go unchallenged because it's quite wrong (Grudges are, in fact, why nobody outside the Empire really gets along with the Dwarfs, and even their relationships can be rocky), but it'd just encourage this argument to go further because Warhammer Fantasy is a fucking mess of canon and you can push and justify virtually anything at the level it's reached, doubly amplified by our board-regional fanon that's built up over several quests.
ugh.
ugh.
Making a new kind of powder that explodes is not change, invention is not change really. I mean change in the way the way they view the world, the willingness to work with others to restore what was lost and build anew. Humans and elves could do that (they probably won't because of a thousand and one plots to stop them) but at least they are not sabotaged by their own nature.
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- He/Him
I would argue that destroying a fortress town and all its inhabitants to the last because you were shortchanged by two pennies in the payment for its construction, a fortress-town built for a noble of their greatest ally, probably helps in causing them to decline.
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- Europe
Humanity as a species is no more capable of fundamentally changing its perspective than the elves or dwarves.
They literally launch crusades to retake and rebuild their lost homes. What do you mean they refuse to work together to rebuild what's lost and build anew?
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- madison
come on man, don't be the guy assuming the worst of everyone who votes against them.
well, one of the ork gods is weakened, and the chaos dwarves made the black orks. those are big meaty bits of information that I feel the grey collage is poorly positioned to actually make use of. The dwarves, on the other hand, might be able to do something useful with it. There are enough unknowns involved that I don't think we can be sure they won't be able to spin an advantage out of knowing, or even really know how likly they are to be able to.
the cost of telling them as far as I can tell is not super high. I find the idea that they would hold additionally mantaling one of the ork gods against us, simply because it was such a massive fluke and we used it to strike at said god.
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See above, how many died for those two pennies? The dwarfs think it's fair and then if those humans try to avenge the people that died in that senseless fight... well that is a new grudge. Dwarfs cannot forgive anything great or small and that is a crucial part of any compromise.
The fandom, especially here tends to build up dwarfs a lot because by and large we the players can work with their neurosis, but at the end of the day their story is a tragic one, all the more so for being inescapable even when they realize those flaws intellectually.
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That'd be entertaining. As is, I expect given its only been days or weeks at best since Lhune was taken, it'll take at least weeks, if not some months, for them to arrive.
Still, be a pleasant surprise for them to arrive to a second Peak taken, along with (hopefully) the greatest conventional fortress in the caldera.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yes.
If you dismiss all of the costs brought up because 'I don't believe that cost exists and think you are mistaken when you consider it', then the cost is not high.
That you dismiss the costs because they don't fit into how you view the story doesn't mean they can't possibly exist.
I say this because you're making absolute statements like that but not explaining why this is the case. "I think these big meaty bits of information are things the Dwarfs can do something useful with it, I acknowledge there are too many unknowns but I'm willing to bet they'll fall in our favor regardless" Without adding speculation on how this can be effective, while very many people (Along with, admittedly, several bad arguments, but that's not something either side can boast being squeaky clean about, if you're going to dismiss an argument because somebody somewhere made it badly and therefore the whole thing doesn't matter, then nothing we argue matters because there's too damn many people involved here and the argument has gone on too long) have explained how this can end badly, and sourced it with in-universe reasons.
That's a level of optimism that gets people killed in any Warhammer.
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- Location
- Earth
This:
As we've seen, people have made arguments based on it, and they have been successful at it. We can in fact, argue Headcannon till we're blue in the face or the QM comes down like a hammer, but it would be nice to avoid that. Because yeah, I agree. Canon Fantasy can be a real mess. And Rule 1 is the only way out of it, and we don't want to stress the QM on this.
But:
@Ganurath It's really telling that you are only bring up your principled stand for "I'm more than a little hostile toward people trying to pass off fanon and/or their personal headcanon as the actual canon of the setting" only once the other side started allegedly doing it. You were fine with folks using the same tactics for the stay silent side. It's only when the shoes are on the other foot that you had a problem with it. Seen directly by you not calling it out during the 20 pages of discussion before a solid counter argument was made.
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- He/Him
Also, I really do want to help with the hoard. With our spell it goes from unlikely to be any problems to practically guaranteed to not be any.
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- Europe
Sure, but they as a species get resistance to basically all forms of mental assault in return. From chaos corruption to hunger pains.
It clearly works for them when they aren't also outnumber by Skaven, Chaos and the orks simultaneously.
When the only real failing you can throw at someone's feet is, when your outnumbered, outgunned, out produced and just generally fucked you hold on absurdly long but are also really anal retentive that's not a bad deal.
Dwarves cannot forgive, but demonstrably have a concept of restitution and limited retribution. You'll notice that they are capable of removing Grudges from the book. And don't murder an entire species over the equivalent of a parking ticket. They're just really hard core about it compared to humans.
And again, that's not perfect, but they clearly get a lot out of it and if the entire world weren't constantly shitting on them they'd be doing just fine.
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- madison
I think you should reread this post, and ask yourself if the tone is warranted.
but to address your point, I have read the arguments. I don't find them convincing, and I refuse to believe that there has never been a single tragedy of mistrust. where an ally held back some key bit of info or aid due to expecting the ally to turn on them.
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- Location
- Singapore
While it's a good rationale, and my initial instinct was to vote for this option, along with Gambling and Holding a service for Ranald because it's so delicious to use the service for Ranald as a way to keep attention away from the transportation of the Hoard, and glorifies Mathilde's god even further, I don't get the sense that there's enough momentum for that vote to win. I have to confess that I decided to vote for War Stories (my second best choice) as an act of preference voting because I don't feel comfortable with Mathilde drinking the night before another major engagement.
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Guile
Having a really great time right now
As soon as they murder everyone involved and reduce their homes to rubble, the Grudge goes away!
Reasonable, really
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I think I was being rather polite honestly, I didn't curse or do anything but take your own post and point out the fallacies in it, and why I'm feeling so nettled by how close this vote is despite all the arguments when arguments like this often get praised as being keen insight.
You cannot honestly think that when you literally post--and I quote " The dwarves, on the other hand, might be able to do something useful with it. There are enough unknowns involved that I don't think we can be sure they won't be able to spin an advantage out of knowing, or even really know how likly they are to be able to. " That you should be free from the opposing argument of "Yes, if you look at an unknown and go 'Surely this unknown is actually hiding a great reward', that the cost looks low"
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Don't worry, Titus was paired with the Panoramia option, which is so far ahead there's no way it'll ever be unseated
Oh, they don't murder entire species do they? I'm sure that's a great comfort to the widows and orphans left behind by the conscripts killed because the dwarfs could not get their two pennies from their overlord. My point is that what they consider fair restitution many others might consider insane thus impeding cooperation and compromise. The dwarfs will for instance never get what they consider fair restitution for the War of Vengeance (see Kragg's inner thoughts counting elves alongside goblins and skaven as racial enemies) thus the waystone network can never be fixed by combined dwarf/elf efforts and though its erosion the world dies a little more each day.
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- Earth
For me it's less about "drinking the night before another major engagement." because the dwarves said the battle is set for next afternoon, so as long as the Orcs don't regroup and suddenly attack, we should be fine. Or the Skaven pop up in numbers, but again, that shouldn't happen here. As long as we don't get black out drunk, Mat should recover for battle.
I'm more against the drinking if you are going to vote for one of the other responsible options. Don't vote to Drink and Escort the Treasure. That's just silly. And since I want to be responsible and pet wolves, I'm not voting for the drinking.
EDIT: In some ways drinking and eating might be a good idea. Mat has been through a lot lately, and her body got tested hard. Some food and drink to recover might be healthy.
Grey Order Paranoia Edit: Of course, if Skaven slipped the sentries and are poisoning the ale or food, we'll regret it.
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