Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I'm getting a little tired...I would ask that anyone making votes read through the chat, but for the moment I think I shall retire.

Let's remember we're all on the same side when this ends, Sisi ni Sawa and all that.
 
As for why its importat to tell Kragg? Because if a mannling wizard can do it, than maybe he can come up with his own way to piss off and hurt the Orc Gods.

Problem with that being uh, any connection through the Black Orcs would be to the cults of Only Gork or Only Mork.

Which we've just cut off at the knee, here. Gork and Mork are very much still doing their fighty brothers duo thing. So, no real connection to them.
 
Ah, this thread really does fly. Some arguments were presented.

-Telling the King and Kragg will only lead to shame about the Dark Dwarves:
No. Full stop. That's strategic level information. It will not lead to "only this one thing" that favors the way you want people to vote. Let's be frank and factual about this.
1. The Dark Dwarves are a shame upon the dwarven people. But if anyone among the dwarves can deal with that shame, for whom it is an old and familiar one, than that's Kragg and a dwarven King. Espetially the King who is trying to reclame a hold a lot closer to the dark dwarves than most of the holds. Will there be shame? Not more than there already is.

2. The Black Orc creation thing. That's strategic level information. Its the origin of a plague. You know how plagues work? Right now the Black Orcs are considered just another mad thing in a mad world. They can't even make a grudge over them, because they just popped up. Having someone to blame for it will only help. Because now they can make a Grudge about it, instead of thinking its just a mad world out there. Grudges they can understand, and eventually, deal with.

3. "A grudge against the dark dwarves is a bad thing" argument. No, no it isn't. There is already a mountain of Grudges against them, not least for abandoning their Gods and all their crimes since. No, the dwarves wont suddenly harry off to kill them all. The primary trait of dwarves is patience. Like the lost Karaks, they'll remember. And plan, and plot. And when the day comes when they can do something about it, then they'll act. And don't tell me this one, this one Grudge, will be the one that breaks their back. No it won't. Grudges are how the dwarven alien psyche deals with these things. It's normal and natural for them. It just goes on the list of "things to deal with, when given a chance/eventually".

4. Telling them Wizards can be possessed by Mork/we were possessed by Mork. Fair, but that's not the whole story, now is it? The story isn't "oh this human got possessed and gave up and now its a risk" its "She got possessed and her ancestor gods stepped in and bleed the fucker". If anything its encouraging. Humans can get possessed is not new information: See Norsca, Chaos, Chaos warriors and Chaos Warriors and Sorcerers exploding into deamons. This is not new information. This part of why everyone is allways wary around us, and why every wizard is vary of magic. You are not tellling them a new thing when you tell them wizards can get possessed. You are telling them a new thing when you tell them you robbed fuckcng Mork.

5. Again, we committed Grand-theft God. This may matter. As multiple people have posted, it could be anything from "Uniting the Orcs and Goblins remaining in K8P" to "Here, have another Waaargh, just for you". The King needs, needs to know a God got robbed in his home. If a Waaargh comes in later on because of this, because of us, and they aren't ready, everything we've worked for here will be undone. That's strategic level info they need to have. Rangers need eyes on the wastes, now.

6. Talking about the dark dwarves with them is a prelude to talking about the dark dwarves with the Grey Order. They might know about them, but few places are likely to know as much about them as Kragg the fucking Grim, and knowing more about the enemies of order is a good thing for the Empire. Even if they are "Way the fuck that way". If nothing else, we can warn other Grey Wizards about it, and not to bring it up. Keep in mind, Mat told the Colledge she was going to dwarf town, and no one mentioned anything about dark dwarves. So either to Colledge doesn't know, or for some reason decided not to tell her, even with mind spells on hand, like for the Skaven. And I don't know about you, but I think the Colledge needs to know about another kind of dwarf, a dark one, before their merchants, traders and other agents abuse the ignorance.

In conclusion: Talking to them about this is risky. Yes. But it is worth it. At least to me. We've seen that 100 roll for the Grenskin response. They were united before the headlong charge. They might yet be again. God alone knows what might be coming from the wastes. They need to know a God was pissed off. And a lot of the talk about possesion was kind of misinformation. Wizards getting possesed is not a new thing. Its part of the reason they are so feared, and so disapproved off. At least this time we can point and say: Yeah, but my Ancestor God came in and wrecked the fool.

EDIT: And ok fair, its entirely possible Mork just fucks off. But that's just a different kind of gamble you are talking. There are no safe options. Just picking your risks. Welcome to Warhammer.


Really, thank you so, so much for this post. It's a very well-argued post, especially against the contention going around in this thread that choosing to remain silent is risk-free action that is going to be consequence-free and perfectly safe. This is a Warhammer Quest after all, where complacency can lead to serious consequences. Both disclosure and silence are going to have consequences, and are going to come with a cost.


Again, infinite series of possibilities.

If there's an infinite series of possibilities, reducing the fog of war is usually the wisest move. Maybe Mork might be taking Karak Eight Peaks more personally then he might otherwise have, maybe not. Maybe we might expect a huge WAAGHH heading our way right now to Karak Eight Peaks, maybe not. There's a reason why poor communications kills is a cliche.
 
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And again it's strongly implid that Dwarves actually suffer negative consequences for having unfulfilled grudges in the book if the Chaos Dwarves are culpible for everything done a Black Ork... well that's a lot of newly discovered yet nearly impossible to fulfill grudges right their.

At least with Skaven and other Greenskins the jerk that cause it usually in the same taken dwarf hold or under-city, it's much easier to gut the Black Ork Warboss of the week.
That's both OOC and not how it actually works. Assuming we tell them, the Chaos Dwarves get a big Grudge in the Big Book of Grudges of "Created the Black Orcs". That one will cover all of it. They don't retroactifly go and blame them and make individual grudges for every act by black orc. The same way they might blame a family for birthing and raising their son, but they don't' blame it for every fuckup the son makes. The "You raised him badly" covers it.

Some tiny sliver of responsibility will transfer, but it won't stop them from striking out existing grudges. Its not like there are litteraly Chaos Dwarves with the Orcs, commanding and guiding them, right? Oh wait, that can happen. More strategic implications, but these ones are OOC.

What it really comes down to, for me is a dice neither we nor the QM have seen yet. We've seen the local Mork response dice, and we've seen the local Orc rally dice. What we haven't seen is what happens in a strategic turn. I'm guessing another dice is getting thrown there. Now maybe it lands in our favor, and we never had to bring it up. But if it rolls poorly, you'll have an entire Waargh incited against K8P at the same time that all the local greenskins went wild, at the same time you admit you were fukcing with a ritual.

If that Warggh comes, if that dice falls that way, they will connect the dots, and they will know you lied to them. That a Waargh is coming their way because of something a manling wizard did. And they won't know what, and will have to guess and won't belive any excuses then. And that is a dice I don't want to throw. I never want to risk giving Kragg the Grimm a reason to come after us to pull the truth from us. Just about as much as I don't want to try and hide this from the Grey College. Bad juju.
 
Huh. Kragg, as we prrrobably should have expected, suspects something.
Guess you don't get to be best Runelord in the world without having a certain attention to weird shit.
We've already figured he knew something about what happened. We just quibble over how much he figured out from someone who could use a billiard ball bouncing around a table of balls to make a floral shape.

Trying to race with mounts trained for war is dicey even when the riders are sober.
Oh yeah, war trained mounts, even regular horses are super aggressive for anyone but their rider.


To Dwarves, Apprentice-Journeyman-Master is one of the cornerstones of their society, so Master carries real weight to them. Normally, Dwarves would not grant a human's Mastery equivalence to a Dwarvern Mastery until the person had proven themselves, but Dwarves have no equivalent to wizards so they get a pass - but they would almost always specify it as them being a Master Wizard or a Zhufokrul or a Mhornokrul or similar. Technically, the title here is your due, but that he is granting it here instead of the full job description is an expression of trust - it implies that others do not need to be warned of you, and that your Mastery is at the level of Dwarven mastery, rather than mere human mastery.

Ok: cunning or skillful.
-i: Person/race/profession
-ul: Art/master of
Okri: Crafter
Okrul: Master Crafter

Zhuf: Torrent/waterfall/rapids
Zhufokri: Wizard, literally 'torrent crafter'
Zhufokrul: Master Wizard
Zhufi: Pejorative for wizard - implies magic defines them, rather than being under their control.

Mhornokri: Grey Wizard, literally 'shadow crafter'
Mhornokrul: Grey Magister.
Gorzhufokri: Amber Wizard, literally 'beast torrent crafter'. 'Zhuf' is included because 'Gorokri' already has the meaning of 'animal trainer'.

Dang, high praise indeed.
The acceptance of this seems weird when seen through the lense of what I've been told by you all about Dwarf psychology. People were promised certain rewards for certain tasks. Any subsequent change of contract should be discussed with new payment attached, no?
Or am I misunderstanding the actual causes behind Dwarven raids on towns that are slightly short on payment and such?

My understanding is that the contract is for an expedition to reclaim enough of the Peaks to use as a base camp for the greater expedition.
Thus the contract is arguably fulfilled once we took the Gate and the two adjacent Peaks...but taking the Citadel would complete the terms for the halflings in that it secures a living and agricultural area in the caldera to make it a living Hold rather than a Fort.

The dwarfs are scrupulous about such things so there'd probably be a performance bonus at the completion
Why is Black Orcs being from the chaos dwarves so important? Like knowing their origin isn't going to magically make them go away or make them easier to fight since as shown in Mathilde's vision the Black Orcs are already a (semi-distant) part of the Greenskin ecosystem so the only way to wipe them out is to wipe out all orcs which is no easy task.
If they can make one horror to plague the world they can make more.

Also it neatly explains a LOT of Black Orc psychology and equipment. They are effectively a hybrid of Orc and Dwarf culture.

Orc goals, dwarf methods.
 
At this point, I think both sides of the argument have more or less dug their heels in and refused to budge, so how about we stop arguing about it and instead discuss what might happen during the celebration? For example, I'm half expecting the forces from Karak Azul to show up mid-party, all fired up for a fight, and be a bit disconcerted.
 
5. Again, we committed Grand-theft God. This may matter. As multiple people have posted, it could be anything from "Uniting the Orcs and Goblins remaining in K8P" to "Here, have another Waaargh, just for you". The King needs, needs to know a God got robbed in his home. If a Waaargh comes in later on because of this, because of us, and they aren't ready, everything we've worked for here will be undone. That's strategic level info they need to have. Rangers need eyes on the wastes, now.
What would Belebro do without us to tell him he should watch out for WAAAGHs?

Probably get surprised by a WAAAGH, definitely
 
As for making them easier to handle, think of it like this. Kragg makes his runes by channeling his hate, and disappointment and the general failing of the dwarves right?
I know you meant it as a rhetorical question, but it's based on a loaded assumption. Nobody who isn't a Runesmith knows what goes into runecraft. This list of individuals includes you, me, and most importantly Mathilde.
 
It needs to go in all the relevant Books of Grudges, so that official written record could be had of Mathilde's discreetly disclosed details.

The Book of Grudges is not for bragging human wizards, it is the physical manifestation of the slow, lingering and torturous death of the dwarfs. There is nothing glorious about it, nothing any sane person would want to be associated with however much the dwarfs may cling to the poisoned chalice.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann

[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Valayan religious service

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
The Book of Grudges is not for bragging human wizards, it is the physical manifestation of the slow, lingering and torturous death of the dwarfs. There is nothing glorious about it, nothing any sane person would want to be associated with however much the dwarfs may cling to the poisoned chalice.
Be pretty sweet if we were in there tho
 
I'm pro-telling Kragg because if anyone is capable of making a reliable greenskin god hurting appliance going by an anecdotical description of a single instance of greenskin god being hurt - it's Kragg. It won't be in our lifespan or two, but it's important.
 
I'm pro-telling Kragg because if anyone is capable of making a reliable greenskin god hurting appliance going by an anecdotical description of a single instance of greenskin god being hurt - it's Kragg. It won't be in our lifespan or two, but it's important.

No one is capable of that, and no one ever will, it took a unique confluence of events thousands of years in the making to do it, Kragg is not going to build the equivalent.
 
No one is capable of that, and no one ever will, it took a unique confluence of events thousands of years in the making to do it, Kragg is not going to build the equivalent.
Not really - stealing the power was a unique coincidence, sure, but I guess disrupting the high-power greenskin ritual happens fairly often - once a decade, I guess, - and of any such disruption could be made to hurt G&M it's a big thing.
 
Not really - stealing the power was a unique coincidence, sure, but I guess disrupting the high-power greenskin ritual happens fairly often - once a decade, I guess, - and of any such disruption could be made to hurt G&M it's a big thing.

The unique confluence was why the Greenskin gods were close enough to be hurt, remember the GM telling us that when aiming magic towards Ranald there is a lot of just divine magic before you get to the god and he has to get closer himself for Mathilde to find. That is even more true of Gork and Mork who are vastly more powerful and thus have more divine power cloaking them.
 
That's both OOC and not how it actually works. Assuming we tell them, the Chaos Dwarves get a big Grudge in the Big Book of Grudges of "Created the Black Orcs". That one will cover all of it. They don't retroactifly go and blame them and make individual grudges for every act by black orc. The same way they might blame a family for birthing and raising their son, but they don't' blame it for every fuckup the son makes. The "You raised him badly" covers it.
Creating the Black Orks is still a big grudge that they can't do a thing about does not help the dwarfs in the least, you know other splitting their attentions further at best.
What it really comes down to, for me is a dice neither we nor the QM have seen yet. We've seen the local Mork response dice, and we've seen the local Orc rally dice. What we haven't seen is what happens in a strategic turn. I'm guessing another dice is getting thrown there. Now maybe it lands in our favor, and we never had to bring it up. But if it rolls poorly, you'll have an entire Waargh incited against K8P at the same time that all the local greenskins went wild, at the same time you admit you were fukcing with a ritual.

If that Warggh comes, if that dice falls that way, they will connect the dots, and they will know you lied to them. That a Waargh is coming their way because of something a manling wizard did. And they won't know what, and will have to guess and won't belive any excuses then. And that is a dice I don't want to throw. I never want to risk giving Kragg the Grimm a reason to come after us to pull the truth from us. Just about as much as I don't want to try and hide this from the Grey College. Bad juju.
Really? And some explaining this makes us not have been messing with the ritaual.... and baseing this on the dice inexplicably making us look guilty... and you call the other sides argument OOC?
 
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[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] Help move the Karag Nar hoard

[X] No to Shenanigans

Maximum, no fun allowed super serious business vote is go. :V
 
No one is capable of that, and no one ever will, it took a unique confluence of events thousands of years in the making to do it, Kragg is not going to build the equivalent.
Not really - stealing the power was a unique coincidence, sure, but I guess disrupting the high-power greenskin ritual happens fairly often - once a decade, I guess, - and of any such disruption could be made to hurt G&M it's a big thing.
Welp, it is definitely one of these

Thousands of years or ten, one or the other
"And then the Manling Mathilde killed all the Big Bosses and there were none left for the dwarves. Kragg was really upset."
 
At this point, I think both sides of the argument have more or less dug their heels in and refused to budge, so how about we stop arguing about it and instead discuss what might happen during the celebration? For example, I'm half expecting the forces from Karak Azul to show up mid-party, all fired up for a fight, and be a bit disconcerted.
That would be nice, and I'd agree to it, if we didn't just have 20 pages of people using incomplete truths and OOC stuff about how Grudges work and what effects they'd have and how "possession scary". To the point multiple people are saying "Thank you for making a clear counter argument." This is not normal. This is not the usual. Clearly one side was having a field day, and we are not shutting down discussion just as a clear response is made. Sorry. But feel free to speculate. You don't have to engage with the whole thing, if you're tired of it. God knows this thread flies.
What would Belebro do without us to tell him he should watch out for WAAAGHs?

Probably get surprised by a WAAAGH, definitely
Actually, it's the Divinely Mandated part that's surprising. Greenskins traditionally have trouble with leadership and infighting. Kind of like Skaven, but less. Now imagine what happens if they have a literal divine mandate. That's a whole different beast. Both in how fast the Waargh forms, and how coherent and directed it is. And what happens if you should assassinate its leader.

I know you meant it as a rhetorical question, but it's based on a loaded assumption. Nobody who isn't a Runesmith knows what goes into runecraft. This list of individuals includes you, me, and most importantly Mathilde.
And when the other side stops argumuing with OOC knowledge so will I. Until then we have all agreed that some OOC knowledge will be used in these arguments. Or have you not seen the sheer number of posts talking about how Grudges are magically bad for Dwarves, weighing on their Souls, something nobody human knows IC?

The Book of Grudges is not for bragging human wizards, it is the physical manifestation of the slow, lingering and torturous death of the dwarfs. There is nothing glorious about it, nothing any sane person would want to be associated with however much the dwarfs may cling to the poisoned chalice.
No, The Book of Grudges is alien logic. Repeat after me: Dwarves aren't Human. Their Books of Grudges is what allows them to not run off to avenge the insult immediatly. They are promises, made to themselves and to the future generations, that this will be rectified. Dwarves literally can't not avenge a wrong. Their only real response to not avenging a wrong is to take the Slayer Oath from the shame of failure and go avenge other wrongs. Grudges just allow them to put them off for a later date, instead of taking the Slayer Oath and just charging to Vengeance.

Do remember: the Human God of Vengeance is an evil one. The dwaven God of Vengance is one of their main and is seen as Good. Dwarves not humans.

Creating the Black Orks is still a big grudge that they can't do a thing about does not help the dwarfs practically in the leasyt.
Again, are you not reading the posts? The Black Orks exists. All those Grudges already exist. But right now they don't know why or how. That's not helpful for a dwarf. Knowing who to blame is. Because if they don't have anyone to blame, they'll blame the world. And that's not a Grudge they can ever, ever deal with. And they know it. So they don't make those Grudges. It's poison for their mind. That's just how the world is. Knowing it isn't a random act of malice in a fucked up world, but that someone is to blame? That dwaves understand really, really well.
 
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The unique confluence was why the Greenskin gods were close enough to be hurt, remember the GM telling us that when aiming magic towards Ranald there is a lot of just divine magic before you get to the god and he has to get closer himself for Mathilde to find. That is even more true of Gork and Mork who are vastly more powerful and thus have more divine power cloaking them.
Eh, that's up for speculation. I think rune that sucks a little bit extra through the powerline a dying greenskin shaman has to G&M is possible.
 
No, The Book of Grudges is alien logic. Repeat after me: Dwarves aren't Human. Their Books of Grudges is what allows them to not run off to avenge the insult immediatly. They are promises, made to themselves and to the future generations, that this will be rectified. Dwarves literally can't not avenge a wrong. Grudges just allow them to put them off for a later date, instead of taking the Slayer Oath and just charging to Vengeance.

Do remember: the Human God of Vengeance is an evil one. The dwaven God of Vengance is one of their main and is seen as Good. Dwarves not humans.

Yes, the dwarfs are alien and it just do happens that the particular part of their alien nature that is killing them (their insane sense of fairness and vengeance) is embodied in the Book of Grudges, that is tragic. That the tragedy is part of their inhumanity does not make their decline and inevitable death any less horrific.
 
Again, are you not reading the posts? The Black Orks exists. All those Grudges already exist. But right now they don't know why or how. That's not helpful for a dwarf. Knowing who to blame is. Because if they don't have anyone to blame, they'll blame the world. And that's not a Grudge they can ever, ever deal with. And they know it. So they don't make those Grudges. It's poison for their mind. That's just how the world is. Knowing it isn't a random act of malice in a fucked up world, but that someone is to blame? That dwaves understand really, really well.
Or they'll just keep the grudge on the greenskkins... whom they are actually fighting and can take vengeance on!

You've already said the Chaos Dwarf grudge is on the backburneer, let it stay their and get jammed into our allies facees contantly every time they see a Black Ork.
 
Yes, the dwarfs are alien and it just do happens that the particular part of their alien nature that is killing them (their insane sense of fairness and vengeance) is embodied in the Book of Grudges, that is tragic. That the tragedy is part of their inhumanity does not make their decline and inevitable death any less horrific.
I'd disagree with you on the whole "inevitable death" thing. Their death is no more inevitable than that of the Empire. I'll grant you decline, but you aren't seeing the other side of it. Its that same absolute sense of right and wrong that lets them withstand stuff like being cut of from the rest of the civilized world for three thousand years, and still be dwarves, still be normal for dwarves. Its part of the same package that lets them resist Chaos and magic. There's good and bad in it. Just like Humans and Elves. They have advantages and disadvantages.
 
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