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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
Boney would give more details, but the relationship isn't exactly friendly. Ice Witches are Gospodar, Hag Witches are Ungol, and it's in the Ice Witches' best interest to maintain their position as the ones in power or favour with the nobility and/or royalty. The Hag Witches are occasionally persecuted like the Hedgewise are, but I'm not sure if it's the Ice Witches advocating for it or just Kislev.

Or Boney could just say that Mathilde has no idea, which is 100% valid. Sometimes we ask questions that Mathilde has no leads on.
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Personally suspect they aren't wasting energy on being hostile, but neither would they exert themselves to help unasked, since whoever goes down would leave more room for the other
 
Codex said:
Ice Witches are Gospodar, Hag Witches are Ungol
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Oh, yeah, I remember now. So IIRC, the Ungol used to dominate proto-Kislev before the Gospodar moved in from the east and conquered a lot of their territory, pushing them southwest. It's long ago enough that tensions have cooled (especially with how they'd have likely fought side-by-side against Chaos invasions), but it makes sense there's not much real warmth between those two ethnic groups either.
 
StormySky said:
Oh, yeah, I remember now. So IIRC, the Ungol used to dominate proto-Kislev before the Gospodar moved in from the east and conquered a lot of their territory, pushing them southwest. It's long ago enough that tensions have cooled (especially with how they'd have likely fought side-by-side against Chaos invasions), but it makes sense there's not much real warmth between those two ethnic groups either.
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Technically the Roppsmen and Ungols dominated proto-Kislev before the Gospodar came and the Ungol crushed the Roppsmen to make space for themselves. Then the Gospodar conquered Erengrad and the Ungols were inducted into the fledgeling Kislev nations. The Roppsmen are mostly gone or assimilated by this point, and the primary contenders are currently the Ungol and Gospodar, who have managed to remain somewhat distinct from each other despite a thousand years of coexistence. Praag is the most openly Ungol city in Kislev, with its Z'ra being an Ungol, but Erengrad and Kislev City are firmly Gospodar. The Ungol tend to live in Nomadic Krugs and they wander the Oblasts and steppes of Kislev, with some living in the forests and protected by the Hag Witches and Wise Women that they greatly respect. The Gospodar tend to be a little more sedentary and live in their Stanistas under their Atamans.

Fun fact, while the Palace Gospodarin would have the greatest Gospodar works of texts, the Writer's Rooms of Kislev are the greatest collection of Ungol texts, because a lot of the Ungol tend to be illiterate and when they work in the cities they ask for translators who transcribe their messages to send back to their homes, and since the transcriptions are kept as copies, it gives the best look in the world on the Ungol's traditions, culture and folk tales.
 
Several years later upon receiving the staff Eike has to constantly restrain herself from asking why it looks like an ass, mainly because she knows that would amuse Mathilde far too much.
 
@Boney:
-Have Kislev forces actually reached the formerly besieged Shirokij villages yet? If so, are there any survivors?
-Will there be an option to go to the Eonir and say "do you have any experts on Athel Loren and can they make anything of a lilac themed Ulgu wielding spirit of vengance attempting to kidnap a Kislevite noble?"
-Will Mathilde be delivering her report to Panaroth in person or will she leave him a message at the College (or is that yet to be determined)?
-Same question as the above, but regarding Mira.
And the most important question:
-Is Drycha's bottom half long enough to be carved into a staff?
 
[X] [KISLEV] Waystone Project: Hag Witches
[X] [WIDOW] Waystone Project: Ice Witches
 
[x] [KISLEV] Waystone Project: Kislev
[x] [WIDOW] Waystone Project: Ice Witches

Why I am not voting for hag witches:
remember how the mode of operation of hedge witches differed from Mathilde's understanding of magic enough for it to be all but incompatible? It should be worse with hag witches. Their inspiration were slav folk tales, see Baba Yaga, or, to use a more known example, Pratchett's discworld witches were inspired by the same source.
So I do not expect for hag witches in a university setting to be helpful.
On the other hand, securing the cooperation of Kislev in the Waystone project to operate on their soil with impunity… This well may be the only chance for that, given that Kislev is not exactly welcoming to foreign magicals, and we want to build our future stones here, because they are nearest to the Chaos.
 
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Late to the party but I'd note that permission to experiment in Kislev in the later stages is both valuable (many people wouldn't be happy with magical experiments in their back yard, and Waystones pull in a lot of power, so dangerous if it goes wrong), and something that can help diplomatic relations.

Remember that when Kislev was offering to host one of the reasons was they were concerned that otherwise they'd never see any benefits.
 
Now that Drycha is sufficiently dead for our immediate purposes, it's not relevant, but I found this as I was rereading. Might be old news.
Boney said:
"It is the Shadows that give the Forest of Shadows its name," says Lord Magister Walther Kupfer, "stolen by the Goddess Halétha to empower those who are opposed to it."
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Boney said:
There is a wisp of Ulgu here that is very much not of the namesake of the forest, and the forest is resisting all attempts of it to blend in to its shadows, giving you tiny glimpses of it out of the corner of your soul.
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The phrasing "rejected by the forest" points away from Halétha, but the debuff largely came from the shadows.

"Halétha intervenes" fits most of the information we have available. Problem is, "Forest intervenes" is a tighter hypothesis- except Halétha's been mucking things up there.

There is definitely at least one spiritual entity. If there are two, they aren't currently at cross purposes, despite LM Kupfer's words. The entity/ies implied in Mathilde's mind that they were the Forest of Shadows, Loren Arhain.

That last sentence is at least partly bullshit, Halétha is pulling a con.

One of the reasons I believe that may just show my Warhammer Lore weakness, but the name. There are lots of place-gods, as we discussed with Kasimir, but the person and the place don't usually have the same names. And when they are similar, it's the place being named after the person. And in Eltharin, on the Imperial/Kislevite border? It's a nice parallel to Athel Loren, but there are no elves (or elf-influenced dryads, lol gottem) here.

Would also explain the entity's motives in firmly opposing Drycha- there's no natural kinship there, this may even be a friend of an (ex-?)enemy.

If there ever was a spirit of the Forest of Shadows, it wasn't just the Shadows that were stolen.
 
[x] [KISLEV] Waystone Project: Kislev
[x] [WIDOW] Waystone Project: Ice Witches

As much as I want Hag witches, getting them after getting g to know them is better then Boris telling one to head down to the forest to help someone they have never meet before.
 
Honestly, once we have a robust enough framework to start wanting a place to do some practical work I really don't expect it to be that hard to get one. So picking up the Hags to help ensure we do get that framework done seems quite a bit more valuable to me. Seems a much more compounding advantage,
 
The problem with going for Kislev now is that it's assuming that the foundations will completely succeed. If the foundations are flawed then access to Kislev doesn't help us.

If we want to get access to Kislev we can negotiate for that later, by which point we should have befriended the Ice and Hag Witches assigned to the project, and they should have personally profited from access to the Library of Mourning. They can help us with their authority and contacts when they're bought into the project.

We know how enthusiast Boris was about having a successful Waystone project active in Kislev, but he was afraid that we would forget about them if it wasn't based there. That makes me think he'll be persuadable as well. Particularly if the Kislevite Witches involved in the project are enthusiastic - and even more if both Hag and Ice Witches are involved, so it won't be a factional issue between them and they'll both support it.

[x] [KISLEV] Waystone Project: Hag Witches
[x] [WIDOW] Waystone Project: Ice Witches
 
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[x] [KISLEV] Waystone Project: Hag Witches
[x] [WIDOW] Waystone Project: Ice Witches
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Honestly, once we have a robust enough framework to start wanting a place to do some practical work I really don't expect it to be that hard to get one. So picking up the Hags to help ensure we do get that framework done seems quite a bit more valuable to me. Seems a much more compounding advantage,
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This is not quite true.
Even disregarding that I am unsure how much the hag witches could actually contribute in an university setting, like explained in an earlier post, would we be talking about any place in the Empire, I would be inclined to agree with you, but with Kislev, not so much.
They are very isolationist, do notice that just giving access to a trading company in good standing needs a royal boon.
And we do want access to them - not only do they have Waystones nobody had studied or even described, alone their geographic position near the Chaos makes them the ideal location for our experiments and stone placements.
 
Projectile said:
Now that Drycha is sufficiently dead for our immediate purposes, it's not relevant, but I found this as I was rereading. Might be old news.


The phrasing "rejected by the forest" points away from Halétha, but the debuff largely came from the shadows.

"Halétha intervenes" fits most of the information we have available. Problem is, "Forest intervenes" is a tighter hypothesis- except Halétha's been mucking things up there.

There is definitely at least one spiritual entity. If there are two, they aren't currently at cross purposes, despite LM Kupfer's words. The entity/ies implied in Mathilde's mind that they were the Forest of Shadows, Loren Arhain.

That last sentence is at least partly bullshit, Halétha is pulling a con.

One of the reasons I believe that may just show my Warhammer Lore weakness, but the name. There are lots of place-gods, as we discussed with Kasimir, but the person and the place don't usually have the same names. And when they are similar, it's the place being named after the person. And in Eltharin, on the Imperial/Kislevite border? It's a nice parallel to Athel Loren, but there are no elves (or elf-influenced dryads, lol gottem) here.

Would also explain the entity's motives in firmly opposing Drycha- there's no natural kinship there, this may even be a friend of an (ex-?)enemy.

If there ever was a spirit of the Forest of Shadows, it wasn't just the Shadows that were stolen.
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My theory is that it is the Forest of Shadows itself working against Drycha, yes, but the entity whispering in Mathilde's mind was Halétha. The Forest of Shadows is a terrible place full of terrible things, and while I could see it working against Drycha because it dislikes her I don't really see it being so kind as to inform Mathilde of that. So the forest acts against an interloper (which happens to be evil but Mathilde would get the same treatment if she went into the Dreaming Wood) and Halétha informs Mathilde of this so that Mathilde is better able to fight against an evil in the Forest of Shadows, since protecting people from the forest is Halétha's domain.

The idea that Halétha 'stole' the spirit of the forest is interesting, but I think it doesn't line up with the fact that the forest remains a terrible place - if Halétha had control over the forest you wouldn't expect her followers to be in a "forever-war with all the nasty gribblies there" as Boney once said. Maybe she has partial control over the forest, which is how she is able to protect people in it.
 
tenchifew said:
This is not quite true.
Even disregarding that I am unsure how much the hag witches could actually contribute in an university setting, like explained in an earlier post, would we be talking about any place in the Empire, I would be inclined to agree with you, but with Kislev, not so much.
They are very isolationist, do notice that just giving access to a trading company in good standing needs a royal boon.
And we do want access to them - not only do they have Waystones nobody had studied or even described, alone their geographic position near the Chaos makes them the ideal location for our experiments and stone placements.
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It we have Hag and Ice Witches involved in the project, they can help us get access to Kislev's Waystones, and neither faction will oppose the idea because it's the other backing it.

If we don't have both Kislevite magical traditions involved, there's be a lot more push back, as they can come up with objections based on their paradigm we can't answer in terms that would make sense to them.

We'd have to do some work for that access later, but I think it's much better to go Hag + Ice Witches first because that way we get a better foundation.

Kislev is something we only need later and do nothing for us in the short term, so can get later, but the Witches are most valuable if we get them right now.
 
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Alratan said:
The problem with going for Kislev now is that it's assuming that the foundations will completely succeed. If the foundations are flawed then access to Kislev doesn't help us.
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If all it takes for the foundation to be flawed is not including one niche magical tradition, despite having elves, dwarfs (the original builders), 2 Orders and the Ice Witches, I don't think there's any chance for the Project to succeed.

The Hags aren't particularly influential in Kislev, it's the IW who are closer to the nobility.
 
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