She has at least three different paths to immortality as far as I can tell, and that's without counting the undead options. She would really have to go out of her way to avoid them if she wanted to drop dead from age at this point.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Wilhelmine works for the Colleges. It is in fact her job to ensure that the Grey College recieves the correct amount, and also that its members aren't abusing Grey Magic for profit.
I read that omake as less being about passing down items and more as the handing off of a responsibility. Also it's a story about the puzzle to find the Liber Mortis. You can't really do that with any of the rest of Mathilde's current possessions, because there's no reason for her to hide them.
Ignoring the fact that Mathilde is massively more likely to be killed than die of old age anyway, she's not really in range of immortality. AFAICT she could maybe go to the Shallyans and get them to reverse the clock on her if she ever really needed it, but that's the only way I can see right now, and that requires a whole bunch of questing.
Zedman7054
Eternally 3rd
- Location
- United States
So by a quirk of fate I am awake to respond to this immediately. So I have my reasoning, and it basically boils down to, Mathilde was wracked with indecision for years about what to do with the Liber Mortis initially. She considered everything she could do with it; destroy it, read it, or use it. The thread decided to read it and that's something we can never undo. It also means that, when determining the future of the Liber Mortis, Mathilde posseses a bias in what she would think is the best course of action, one that she was worried may not have been the best one.
Here's a question for you. Why did Abelhelm entrust the Liber Mortis to Mathilde? Was it really only because she needed to read the title page to figure out the cipher for Abelhelm's conspiracy kill list? Or was it because he trusted her to do something with it? Why couldn't he have just hid it, or destroyed it himself? We'll never know because he's dead and we refused to bring him back.
I choose to see that holding the Liber Mortis is different from thinking about holding the Liber Mortis. The power and temptation, a draw and strain on one's mind and morals. I don't think Mathilde was (in the omake) or is (in the quest proper) capable of destroying the Liber Mortis outside of true desperation. Not after reading it all. For no other reason than truly believing in the good she can use it for at the very least.
At the end of her life, she hands it off into the hands of someone she hopes will do the same she did for Abelhelm. Make the right decision with the Liber Mortis. Whatever it is.
Now I'm going to bed. If this didn't clear up your question let me know and I'll tackle it after a few hours of sleep.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Fair point, though there's always the question of which dwarf. Maybe a kid of Belegar, or that priest guy whose name escapes me at the moment? Back to Kragg so he can remember the strange Umgi Zhufroki who clawed his people back over the edge of oblivion and gave him back his hope?
Sure, but she would probably have a choice in how it gets sent out into the world, and it would be cool to see whoever it ends up with regardless. Because it is a major divine artifact, but it's creation and beginning of its legend is indelibly tied to Mathilde's role as a champion of Ranald and her achievements with and for it. She is as much a part of it as Frederick van Hal and everything he did is a part of the Liber Mortis, and I imagine it's next bearer will have at least an inkling of that.
Fair on the responsibility bit, but I imagine Mathilde has absorbed enough dwarfiness to consider setting tests of worthiness for whoever is to receive her greatest and most powerful possessions, while also being Grey Wizard and Ranldian enough to make it this sort of thing. One last lesson for Eike, if nothing else. Also the Coin, at least, probably represents a responsibility as well, and one much more active and immediate.
Oh, I didn't have questions. I get why you wrote what you did, I was more musing on how people don't really write other things. There's a story to be told in what happens to the Liber Mortis, I just don't think it's the only one, or the biggest, but we've a dozen or so versions of it with very little on other things.
This is going to sound dark, but I do not think there is any guarantee that Mathilde will die before Eike, old age is not the principal killer of wizards, not by a longshot and Eike herself is going to be a good bit more fragile than her master for a good long while. There is a reason I have been testing the waters for things like a practice sword with the Rune of the Unknown or turning her a staff as soon as she is in our care.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Yeah, we should definitely do our damndest to make sure she comes out of her apprenticeship, and hopefully journeying as well, as intact as possible. Without coddling, mind, but we've got plenty of non-egregious resources and skills to use. Once she's a Magister it'll definitely be out of our hands, but by then she'll probably be well off, and Mathilde will be testing time herself the whole while.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Maybe she would set tests, but it's unlikely. Either whoever she's handing this stuff off to would be someone she already considers ready for it or she'll give over to an organisation like the College, so they can decide on someone. If Mathilde becomes Eike's master and then dies three days later, there won't be a test, Eike just won't get her stuff.
The Liber Nortis meanwhile is different because Mathilde wants to keep it hidden right now, as well as preferably prevent anyone from ever finding out she held possession of it.
I don't think it'll be Mathilde's choice what happens to the Coin. Either it'll stop working, or Ranald will ensure it gets where he wants it. What Mathilde wants is might be a factor, but certainly she won't get the deciding vote on the matter. You could write an interesting story about what happens to the Coin after Mathilde's death, but it certainly wouldn't be the same sort of personal one as Zedman's omake. It'd be better done as a sort of investigatory angle, witht he new bearer seeking the Coin's story.
The way I see it we should front load all the survival advantages we can give Eike:
- Armored robes for not getting stabbed in the dark
- Dwarf made grounding rod bought with AV so as not to blow herself up (not like we using it for anything else and if we do spend it on this it will be used by dwarfs in war win/win)
- Vanishing sword and the sword lessons to match
- Location
- Utrecht
This one i disagree with.
We're not actually making a mini me. Eike is a Shallyan. We shouldn't push her to be something she's not.
She is going to have to kill people one way or another, she is a wizard of the Colleges and their primary function is war. So sure she can pick her instrument of death (though I think a sword is best because she is hopefully going to inherit ours), but no matter what she does choose she is going to need a weapon.
- Location
- Utrecht
If all goes to plan, eike will not need to take the field.
Unless she changes her mind, she is Wilhemina's heir, to focus on running the EIC.
Getting her a firearm and teaching her to use it (marksmanship and quick draw) will probably be a better bet.
It doesn't take much to become decent with a gun. Mastering swords is a long and arduous road.
She doesn't. If the Colleges were solely for war, then it would be purely battle mages. It's not. Wizards do have pretty great freedom in what they do (so long as it's not evil shit, but that's illegal for everyone). A wizard who hates their life is a problem, not an asset.
And the Grey college certainly won't force her to systemetically go against her own morals. Like, that's just obviously going to lead to horrible troubles. Even leaving the risk of corruption, a disgruntled wizard can cause all sorts of trouble while staying within the bounds of legality. And having her direct the EIC is plenty usefuly while requiring zero personal violence.
Now, the Grey College will probably encourage flexibility on Eike's interpretation of Shallyan strictures, but if Eike decides something is not moral, then the Greys won't order her to act against that without very good reasons, and all the ones I can think off (big invasion, mostly) are where Shallyans are ok with violence anyway.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Eike is not a Priest of Shallya and isn't admitted to the Clergy. She doesn't need to follow the Strictures religously and I would hope that she never does because one of the strictures is "Don't waste your energy on your own pleasure". Shallyans do have a signature weapon though:
"Go about your life unarmed. A stout walking staff is all you'll ever need." Page 51 Tome of Salvation 2E
Stout walking sticks are their thing. Even then, Eike, being a lay follower, won't have to follow the no killing stricture. I still think she wouldn't like to focus on that aspect. I'm not going to advocate for teaching her assassination or anything.
I don't think a sword would be the most optimal weapon for her. I'd suggest a more defensive weapon.
"Go about your life unarmed. A stout walking staff is all you'll ever need." Page 51 Tome of Salvation 2E
Stout walking sticks are their thing. Even then, Eike, being a lay follower, won't have to follow the no killing stricture. I still think she wouldn't like to focus on that aspect. I'm not going to advocate for teaching her assassination or anything.
I don't think a sword would be the most optimal weapon for her. I'd suggest a more defensive weapon.
While it is true that the primary function of the Colleges is war, not every single member of it needs to personally commit violence. If a Wizard is completely against doing violence themselves, then there are many non-violent ways they can serve the Empire. It would be daft to force an Apprentice to go completely against their moral convictions when you're going to be relying on their moral convictions to keep them from falling to the temptations of Chaos and Dark Magic.
While you're correct that she isn't bound to the strictures, I think she'd want to follow their spirit. Which probably includes not hurting people. Whether the consequences are "Shallya will smite you" or "You feel like shit", they are to be avoided.
Besides, the signature weapon of a corporate heiress is clearly big burly men. Maybe a mysterious rakish fellow (gender acording to perference), since it's a Shallyan heiress.
- Location
- Denial
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I like the revolver idea for Eike, good stopping power to defend herself with without having to devote her life to combat to make effective use of it but if she does decide to go combat focused it can support whatever main weapon she chooses. Plus we could windherd it with Take no Heed/Radiant Weapon to let her keep it without being obviously armed and defend herself better against sudden daemons.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Grey Magic is particularly good at avoiding violence as well I should note. Lots of spells from the Spellbook can be used to beguile, distract and confuse, or otherwise incapacitate or run away from enemies. Bewilder, Doppelganger, Eye of the Beholder, Mindhole, Mutable Visage, Shadowsteed, Take No Heed, Cloak Activity, Mockery of Death, Pall of Darkness, Shroud of Invisibility, Shadow of Death, Dread Aspect, Illusion, Substance of Shadow, Universal Confusion, Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma, Steed of Shadows, Withering, and Enfeebling Foe.
In fact, I could go so far as to say that Grey Magic is one of the best lores of magic for not personally killing anyone in battle.
In fact, I could go so far as to say that Grey Magic is one of the best lores of magic for not personally killing anyone in battle.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
…Is fellow a gender neutral term? I've never actually heard it be used for anything other than guys, or at least can't remember it. It would be nice to have more of those in my vocabulary though.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Personally I think Eike should get some combat training and a weapon just to be safe. However considering that it will be mainly for self defense it would likely be smaller and easier to carry around.
A pistol is a good option, although I'd think that she would benefit from a light melee weapon as well. Would need to see what she favors as she could go for anything from knives/daggers to axes to warhammers to a Mancatcher.
A pistol is a good option, although I'd think that she would benefit from a light melee weapon as well. Would need to see what she favors as she could go for anything from knives/daggers to axes to warhammers to a Mancatcher.
Wizards do need weapons, yes, but a weapon doesn't have to be a chunk of metal, or a spell that puts your insides on your outsides. The EIC is a weapon. The Queekish dictionary is a weapon. Regimand's inns and taverns are a weapon.
Information is power, and the Grey Order controls information.
Kupfer didn't incite unrest in Clar Karond with a sword. Wilhelmine didn't break the House of Goellner with an axe.
And Mathilde didn't eradicate the Stirland League with her martial score—instead it was paperwork, lots and lots of paperwork.
If Eike wants to, she can be the most dangerous wizard without ever having to lift a blade.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Boney Since you're here, I wanted to ask a question that's been haunting me for way too long. Back during the Tarn date, Mathilde said this to answer Panoramia's question:
Now, I want to ask what Panoramia's answer would be if the roles were reversed. What does Panoramia like about Mathilde? The spectre of curiousity has been hanging around me for too long. I've been feeling strangely sappy lately.
It's one of the sweetest moments in the quest and I frequently come back to it to sigh of happiness. It's very pleasant.
Now, I want to ask what Panoramia's answer would be if the roles were reversed. What does Panoramia like about Mathilde? The spectre of curiousity has been hanging around me for too long. I've been feeling strangely sappy lately.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Also a bunch of big burly guards. Oh, and a few sneaky buggers helped out too. Plus her magic horse.
- Location
- Utrecht
Another point in against is outfitting her with top of the line equipment immediately.
The armour and the grounding rod, fine.
Dwarf favour doesn't grow on trees, and she only has one life.
But a vital part of our lessons should be how to accidentally find wealth and turn it to a cause, and getting a dwarf made revolver with her earnings would be a good goal to set. She's loaded anyway.
If she wants a demon slaying weapon, she can pay with CF (at a discount because we want to make it). Handing out things for "free", just because she's our apprentices leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Mathilde started out poorer than dirt, and made it to the top anyway.
I think that it's more commonly used as male specific, but there is nothing stopping it from being gender neutral, it's a bit like saying guys, used to be male oriented and then became more gender neutral. For instance if you say formally Fellows of the X Society, that does include all genders.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I know many people, including myself, that have a bit of an issue of that. I've been guilty of using "hey guys" or similar stuff, but if somebody called me "My Guy" I'd be irritated for sure.