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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
To play devils advocate on the Mira payment argument, when we last spoke to her she said she couldn't give us access to more resources because was too busy trying to maintain her control over the order.

With Alric denied of his glory, that job becomes a lot easier for Mira, and in theory she should have enough freedom to release more resources for our literally world saving project, so I don't really see much wrong with informing her of this change in circumstances, and then reminding her that she still has an opportunity to contribute further to the project and wow that sounds really underhanded now that I say it out loud.

As for the spell book, well, as has been pointing out, we're spending an AP to learn cloak activity and we get two other spells for free. And cloak activity is a very useful spell indeed.
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Mira gave a Lady Magister and promoted the Magister she gave to us to Lord Magister.

Think about that. She gave us two LMs. The average number of LMs is 4. The Colleges are always desperately undermanned for the literal worldsaving jobs they do where they work on things that are a lot more immediate than the Waystone project.

I don't think we should even ask for more than the two Lord Magisters that we got, not on goodwill.
 
Glau said:
"Might as well" ignores AP tradeoffs, and while it is useful it is far from being important- we have other tools for the same jobs.

And it's not like we learned all our stories from our master either, not by a long shot, so I'm not sure why Eike makes a difference.
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The argument of "no ap" always annoys me. Yes we got no ap, we still find ap to do things not directly related to our grand quest. Like, putting our personal advancement completely off leaves a sour taste. We did most of our great stuff through personal investment...
 
We're not doing a charity run, this a high risk political hit job and ideally we should be paid for going the extra mile. We have more to lose here than we have to gain due to Heidi so this needs to wrapped and buried, but if we find the time renegotiation should be on the table. For the additional resources if nothing else.
 
NeonLights said:
We're not doing a charity run, this a high risk political hit job and ideally we should be paid for going the extra mile. We have more to lose here than we have to gain due to Heidi so this needs to wrapped and buried, but if we find the time renegotiation should be on the table. For the additional resources if nothing else.
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We didn't vote to renegotiate so we don't get the payment. We're not running a scam here. We chose to do this job for free. If you want payment, you have to ask for it beforehand instead of springing it up. She didn't set out a bounty for us to collect.
 
NeonLights said:
We're not doing a charity run, this a high risk political hit job and ideally we should be paid for going the extra mile. We have more to lose here than we have to gain due to Heidi so this needs to wrapped and buried, but if we find the time renegotiation should be on the table. For the additional resources if nothing else.
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We had the opportunity to do that before we finished this, we didn't.
 
NeonLights said:
We're not doing a charity run, this a high risk political hit job and ideally we should be paid for going the extra mile. We have more to lose here than we have to gain due to Heidi so this needs to wrapped and buried, but if we find the time renegotiation should be on the table. For the additional resources if nothing else.
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This is a ass saving hit job to keep our friend/ally, and our godson, from being potentially killed.
We could have brought in Alric, we could have negotiated with Mira for more, we voted not to do so, going for more now has as much, if not more, potential downsides than upsides.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Those two things are very dissimilar to each other. You can't just say "if you like X, you should do Y instead" because they are different things.
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Jreengus said:
Chamon mushrooms are completely unrelated to windherding. I also reject the idea that it is a solution in search of a problem. It is a method to become a better wizard, a way to improve Mathilde's capabilities in battle and to improve her gear.
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If you are at the point of making random trinkets because you want to train Mathilde's Windherding capabilities, you should be fine with doing literally anything else that will train those capabilities. And Chamon mushrooms are a Windherding problem:

Boney said:
[Attempting workarounds: Learning, 23+29+15(Windherder)-10(Overwork)=57.]
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The problem with Chamon and Shyish mushrooms is that we need two winds to work at the same place - Chamon or Shyish to soak the mushrooms, Ghyran to make them grow despite the presence of the other winds - without Dhar. That's what Windherding is about. It is at least possible that solving that problem will provide Mathilde with experience that could later be used in other projects.
 
Codex said:
Think about that. She gave us two LMs. The average number of LMs is 4. The Colleges are always desperately undermanned for the literal worldsaving jobs they do where they work on things that are a lot more immediate than the Waystone project.
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Is that the average number of LMs or the average number of LMs we (as in the thread) know by name?

NeonLights said:
We're not doing a charity run, this a high risk political hit job and ideally we should be paid for going the extra mile. We have more to lose here than we have to gain due to Heidi so this needs to wrapped and buried, but if we find the time renegotiation should be on the table. For the additional resources if nothing else.
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We ought to get something extra because of the rep increase (be it represented as College Favour; narrative opportunities or something else) - if Alric hoped this could lift him out of disfavour then Mathilde is going to be very well viewed.

We shouldn't demand stuff from Mira because we haven't really done this for Mira. She's already giving us quite a bit and we've got a working relationship; let's not spoil it.
 
Codex said:
We didn't vote to renegotiate so we don't get the payment. We're not running a scam here. We chose to do this job for free. If you want payment, you have to ask for it beforehand instead of springing it up. She didn't set out a bounty for us to collect.
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I'm aware. But if we don't manage the kill here or the arc continues, I think renegotiation would be optimal.
Tobtorp said:
We had the opportunity to do that before we finished this, we didn't.
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I know, but if this encounter isn't the end of this arc, we should take it. If being a big part of that statement.

Valmond said:
This is a ass saving hit job to keep our friend/ally, and our godson, from being potentially killed.
We could have brought in Alric, we could have negotiated with Mira for more, we voted not to do so, going for more now has as much, if not more, potential downsides than upsides.
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Time constraints are a pain when they're working against you, and we barely set everything up in time as it is. But if this arc isn't over, as long as we're assuming additional risk for an outcome that benefits Mira, I believe renegotiation is on the table. No point in leaving money on the table for a job we're completing anyway.
 
mathymancer said:
The problem with Chamon and Shyish mushrooms is that we need two winds to work at the same place - Chamon or Shyish to soak the mushrooms, Ghyran to make them grow despite the presence of the other winds - without Dhar. That's what Windherding is about. It is at least possible that solving that problem will provide Mathilde with experience that could later be used in other projects.
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Except you know with mushrooms and not enchanting. The shrooms use raw wind not the complex forms of magic that can be carefully shaped to avoid each other. I do not think it is possible at all to have one of them grow with one wind and yet store another. It's just a mushroom (whose ancestor may or may not have been a goblin shaman :V )
 
mathymancer said:
If you are at the point of making random trinkets because you want to train Mathilde's Windherding capabilities, you should be fine with doing literally anything else that will train those capabilities. And Chamon mushrooms are a Windherding problem:


The problem with Chamon and Shyish mushrooms is that we need two winds to work at the same place - Chamon or Shyish to soak the mushrooms, Ghyran to make them grow despite the presence of the other winds - without Dhar. That's what Windherding is about. It is at least possible that solving that problem will provide Mathilde with experience that could later be used in other projects.
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People want to make a windherded trinket because doing so will unlock the windherding enchantments tech tree letting us make more complicated/powerful enchanted items. There is nothing to indicate that working on Chamon mushrooms would do anything at all toward that goal.
 
mathymancer said:
If you are at the point of making random trinkets because you want to train Mathilde's Windherding capabilities, you should be fine with doing literally anything else that will train those capabilities. And Chamon mushrooms are a Windherding problem:


The problem with Chamon and Shyish mushrooms is that we need two winds to work at the same place - Chamon or Shyish to soak the mushrooms, Ghyran to make them grow despite the presence of the other winds - without Dhar. That's what Windherding is about. It is at least possible that solving that problem will provide Mathilde with experience that could later be used in other projects.
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The problem, as some have pointed out, is that the mushrooms will not give us the breakthrough a enchantment can give us. The hints I've seen from posted quotes are pretty strong.
Boney said:
Still, the fact that there's no leakage between the two and no disruption of either effect proves that there's merit to what you're attempting, you're confident that if you manage to contribute at least basic competence to a future enchantment you'd be capable of even better things.
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Zero Gravitas said:
We ought to get something extra because of the rep increase (be it represented as College Favour; narrative opportunities or something else) - if Alric hoped this could lift him out of disfavour then Mathilde is going to be very well viewed.

We shouldn't demand stuff from Mira because we haven't really done this for Mira. She's already giving us quite a bit and we've got a working relationship; let's not spoil it.
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We are, but nothing compared to if we can renegotiate. And why the guilt? We didn't do this for Mira, but you bet that she'll be spinning gold from the benefits this brings long after the good will fades.
 
NeonLights said:
I'm aware. But if we don't manage the kill here or the arc continues, I think renegotiation would be optimal.
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If this isn't the end of the arc, it means we have bigger problems than pay.

Since it means that we have a contender for the Everchosen running loose in the city and may have just executed some random smuck for wearing too much perfume and having the wrong sigil on their taxi.

You know, bad stuff.
 
Alright then. It was just a thought, because unlike making items we have no use for and will immediately give to someone else, Windsoak Mushrooms are a project we've been working on for a while and which will have a clear and significant benefit to the Colleges.
 
NeonLights said:
We are, but nothing compared to if we can renegotiate. And why the guilt? We didn't do this for Mira, but you bet that she'll be spinning gold from the benefits this brings long after the good will fades.
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Yes, but she also didn't agree to pay us for it. Mira could rightfully say "you obviously did it for other reasons, why should I pay you for something you would have done anyway?"
 
NeonLights said:
We are, but nothing compared to if we can renegotiate. And why the guilt? We didn't do this for Mira, but you bet that she'll be spinning gold from the benefits this brings long after the good will fades.
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Boney said:
In theory, but gratitude is ephemeral and has a tendency to evaporate quickly, and you can get more out of her today in a tit for tat exchange than you could get out of her tomorrow when the deed is already done and the only leverage you have is a sense of gratitude.
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We can't 'renegotiate' as per the original option when there's no more leverage. We can still ask for more stuff, but we aren't going to get as much out of it compared to when things were still in flux.
 
And what reputation we gain from taking out a chaos worshipping (former) Elector Count will easily start evaporating if we instantly turn around and start asking for rewards.
I'd prefer to get the ephemeral rep increase we can keep building on to concrete but ultimately limited payment.
 
If we're talking about future self improvement actions, I'd like to voice my interest in (attempting to) codify(ing) RoW and our Shadow Knives Mastery. For the latter, I'd like to wait for our greatsword style to be finished (so I'm indirectly in favor of that doing that too), because I think it would be fun to codify it in such a way that it can be used with the aforementioned fighting style, i.e. turning it into a Shadow Greatsword spell of some sort. With how spell creation, and Wizard magic in general, has been described I feel like it would fit nicely.

Also, I'd love for us to finish the mushroom book, as it's something that, potentially, can help all the Colleges.
 
mathymancer said:
Alright then. It was just a thought, because unlike making items we have no use for and will immediately give to someone else, Windsoak Mushrooms are a project we've been working on for a while and which will have a clear and significant benefit to the Colleges.
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I agree the windsoak mushrooms will be useful to the colleges, it's why I want to just write the book and let someone over at the Jades and/or the Amethysts/Golds figure out the last two
 
NeonLights said:
We are, but nothing compared to if we can renegotiate. And why the guilt? We didn't do this for Mira, but you bet that she'll be spinning gold from the benefits this brings long after the good will fades.
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What guilt?

Not bilking Mira is being strategic - we get the head of one of the Colleges to feel at least vaguely grateful and perhaps even mildly indebted to Mathilde. Mira could be in her post for decades and she'll know that Mathilde helped put her there.

We don't really need the Light Order right now beyond the initial deal - they're already having about a quarter of their LMs in WEB MAT.
 
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