Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Aranfan]

Why should we even waste AP looking for daughter candidates? It's throwing good money after bad.

 

[K von Carstein]

Why should we even waste AP looking for daughter candidates? It's throwing good money after bad.

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Personally I don't think looking for the Daughters is that urgent or important, but I'm still curious about them. It seems there's many people who want to look for them, and if we can look for them while at the sale time investigating potentially useful groups for the WP, I'm okay with that. That way I satisfy my curiosity without loss of AP.

 

[mathymancer]

I woud like to mention that way back at turn 35, Boney had this to say about investigating people before recruiting them:

but will there be any actions to lean more about (investigate, mingle, go to the same meeting etc) the different houses before going straight to 'try to recruit'? @BoneyM

I would be happier to at least be able to attempt to get a bit more knowledge about a group before going for the dive.

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Mathilde isn't diving, she's been thrown in. If you want to make informed decisions, the only way to accumulate that information is by making a bunch of uninformed ones.

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We're probably going to have to bite the bullet and recruit at least one house without knowing for sure if they are useful, and then hope that they will be able to tell us more about the other houses. We're definitely going to have to do this with other groups - the secretive and insular Hedgewise are not going to tell us their secrets before we recruit them, and the same almost certainly applies to any non Empire group.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

But if we try to recruit a non-Daughter with the Father, it's completely useless. I'm counting on that paradigm shift to happen when we interact during the investigation phase, so we can maximise our recruiting boost. Like that, in the recruiting phase we would enjoy the paradigm shift AND the Gambler, because the paradigm shift presumably continue after the turn it happened.

Concerning the investigation, I would want to do that even if the Daughter thing didn't exist. I simply want to make sure the people we will try recruiting are actually useful for the project. We can also begin the project during the investigation turn, WoG said that adding people after the beginning doesn't have penalities.

Edit: I would propose to delay recruiting anyway, so using the Daughter instead of the Gambler makes more sense in that case.

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I think you're valuing the Gambler far too highly. A chance of the Father working on a recruitment target is worth so much more.

We do not need to investigate groups before recruiting them, or there would be an option for that. If we try and recruit a dud, we'll just find out they're a dud, and not waste AP on valid targets.

We are already not using the Gambler on all of our targets, and dragging out recruitment to try and do so would be ridiculous.

Why should we even waste AP looking for daughter candidates? It's throwing good money after bad.

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We shouldn't be wasting any AP on this - the only sane way of doing this is to use the Father when we're recruiting possible Daughters, where we would want to recruit them anyway. The only "cost" is not using the Gambler for a turn.

 

[Pempelune]

I think you're valuing the Gambler far too highly. A chance of the Father working on a recruitment target is worth so much more.

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This. Gambler is just a numerical bonus. The Father gain us the automatic trust of a faction. When the factions that could be influenced by this are:
- isolationist Great Houses that are against the Project to begin with
- people that have been hunted by the Grey Order forever
Then that trust is worth far more than the bonus the Gambler would grant.
And yes, the Father won't work on every target, but the Gambler also only work on one target per turn. If we do a turn where we attempt to recruit both the Halethans and the Hekarti Great House, the Father only need to apply to one of those targets for us to get the same benefit as the Gambler.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

There's not really all that many viable candidates for Ranald's Daughters. Say we come up with six; if we check three of them in a single turn that's three 33% chances to activate the Father, in exchange for a single +20 for that turn. If we get them all done over 2 turns, then we've definitely got two activations of the Father in exchange for two +20s. Surely everyone can see that this is worth it?

 

[deathofrats0808]

There's not really all that many viable candidates for Ranald's Daughters. Say we come up with six; if we check three of them in a single turn that's three 33% chances to activate the Father, in exchange for a single +20 for that turn. If we get them all done over 2 turns, then we've definitely got two activations of the Father in exchange for two +20s. Surely everyone can see that this is worth it?

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The only problems I see with this argument is that it both assumes the thread can correctly identify Ranald's daughters (or at least one of them) and that their worshippers will be useful to have on the Waystone Project. Neither of those is guaranteed.

 

[ReImagined]

There's not really all that many viable candidates for Ranald's Daughters. Say we come up with six; if we check three of them in a single turn that's three 33% chances to activate the Father, in exchange for a single +20 for that turn. If we get them all done over 2 turns, then we've definitely got two activations of the Father in exchange for two +20s. Surely everyone can see that this is worth it?

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As a point of order, the action is singular, but the Gambler applies up to two +20s to it.

There's two levels of uncertainty with regard to finding Ranald's Daughters. The first is if they're inside our known candidates list. The second is that if they are inside the list, whether what their organizations bring to the table is worth the AP spent looking for them. The four categories are thus:

	In List	Not In List
Has Expertise	✓ Has waystone expertise, and we can find them​	✗Has waystone expertise, but we can't find them​
No Useful Expertise	✗We can find them, but what they bring to the table is not waystone related.​	✗We can't find them, and what they bring to the table is not waystone related.​

The payoff in that top left category is very nice, but it's reasonable for people to want to hedge their bets for a safer outcome.

 

[K von Carstein]

As a point of order, the action is singular, but the Gambler applies up to two +20s to it.

There's two levels of uncertainty with regard to finding Ranald's Daughters. The first is if they're inside our known candidates list. The second is that if they are inside the list, whether what their organizations bring to the table is worth the AP spent looking for them. The four categories are thus:

	In List	Not In List
Has Expertise	✓ Has waystone expertise, and we can find them​	✗Has waystone expertise, but we can't find them​
No Useful Expertise	✗We can find them, but what they bring to the table is not waystone related.​	✗We can't find them, and what they bring to the table is not waystone related.​

The payoff in that top left category is very nice, but it's reasonable for people to want to hedge their bets for a safer outcome.

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Exactly. The Gambler is 2 +20 that were sure to get, the Father is +infini but there's much less chances of getting it. I prefer a smaller price with better odds.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

The only problems I see with this argument is that it both assumes the thread can correctly identify Ranald's daughters (or at least one of them) and that their worshippers will be useful to have on the Waystone Project. Neither of those is guaranteed.

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The probabilities work out to about the same (so long as there's approximately six reasonable candidates, which honestly feels like a lot) even if the thread misses a potential candidate, but I take your point.

As a point of order, the action is singular, but the Gambler applies up to two +20s to it.

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I've been assuming that there's a single roll for recruitment before it gets into narrative favour-trading, but I suppose that could be a false assumption.

Exactly. The Gambler is 2 +20 that were sure to get, the Father is +infini but there's much less chances of getting it. I prefer a smaller price with better odds.

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The odds aren't really that long at all though, is the main takeaway here. If we're checking 3 candidates in a turn, there's actually a very high chance of getting one right.

 

[ReImagined]

I've been assuming that there's a single roll for recruitment before it gets into narrative favour-trading, but I suppose that could be a false assumption.

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Here's what's been said about Thorek's recruitment:

Boney, if it's something you're willing to share: were there any rolls here that the Gambler has helped with, or was this always what Karak Azul's response would be? I ask because back when we Coined the Dragonstone for Karak Eight Peaks in 2483, you vouchsafed to us that there had been rolls, even though we couldn't see them. But obviously this situation is different and maybe you want to make like Ranald and hold your cards close to your chest.

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The Gambler being in effect was something I kept in mind while I mapped out Thorek's possible responses to being contacted.

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The wording is ambiguous, but my read is that there was a narrative effect. My assumptions could be off too, of course.

 

[Rafin]

Nothing stop us from investigating and begin the project in one turn, then recruit the interesting people in the next.

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Except the part where their paradigm doesn't get incorporated from the start. Personally I'm perfectly fine with starting the project proper three turns from now.

- isolationist Great Houses that are against the Project to begin with

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Which one are you thinking of? Till now we didn't even get any mentions of isolationist Houses that worship any female gods at all. All the mentioned isolationists were male god worshiping. Hoeth, Vaul and Asuryan to be specific.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I'm with Alratan on the fact that we should at the very least bring in the Damsels and the Ice witches before doing the framework action as they are heaviest human hitters in terms of magical knowledge that is completely outside of the scope of the colleges of magic.

I also don't particularly want to continue with recruitment actions on into infinity preping forever.

With that in mind I'd be happy with a turn which has investigate the waystone ourselves with the gambler on it then one last recruitment turn which has the Damsels and Ice witches and then finally the big push for the framework action.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

We've only been 2 terms into recruitment actions. We can do 2 more.

The overpreparation anxiety seems weird since a lot of the big stuff that's been happening in these turn hasn't been connected with the Waystone project.

If everything goes well this turn we'll have the Colleges, Grey Lords and Azul Runesmiths fully in which is the absolute bare minimum necessary to get anywhere.

 

[DragonParadox]

The odds aren't really that long at all though, is the main takeaway here. If we're checking 3 candidates in a turn, there's actually a very high chance of getting one right.

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Well it depends on if they are actually findable, if they are not on the list they could be worshiped by a single village of goat herders in Cathay.

Ok, maybe not that obscure, but you get the idea, if we run through the list of three or so ideas we have and do not find anyone, then that is pretty much it, GG the Father.

 

[Tomcost]

You know who we should visit while having the father active?

Heidi. She knows stuff and so she can straight up tell us. It is likely going to save us time.

 

[Jreengus]

You know who we should visit while having the father active?

Heidi. She knows stuff and so she can straight up tell us. It is likely going to save us time.

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We absolutely should visit Heidi but there is no benefit to having the father active while doing so. She's a follower of Ranald not his daughters and even if she also worships his daughters she already knows Mathilde is trustworthy.

 

[Tomcost]

We absolutely should visit Heidi but there is no benefit to having the father active while doing so. She's a follower of Ranald not his daughters and even if she also worships his daughters she already knows Mathilde is trustworthy.

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Yet... she didn't tell us anything. She can feel Ranald. Maybe she needs to feel Ranald's approval?

 

[Mopman43]

Yet... she didn't tell us anything. She can feel Ranald. Maybe she needs to feel Ranald's approval?

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She might not know anything. This is one hell of a secret.

 

[Jreengus]

Yet... she didn't tell us anything. She can feel Ranald. Maybe she needs to feel Ranald's approval?

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Why would she just randomly tell us about the daughters? Generally speaking you don't keep something a secret by just telling it to everyone you meet. Assuming she knows I wouldn't expect her to tell us anything about them until after Ranald lets us know about them himself.

 

[Tomcost]

Why would she just randomly tell us about the daughters? Generally speaking you don't keep something a secret by just telling it to everyone you meet. Assuming she knows I wouldn't expect her to tell us anything about them until after Ranald lets us know about them himself.

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I just have my doubts. Still, I think that we can get a good idea of the posible identities of the daughters by some investigation and buying all possible books about minor deities with the library.

 

[Copperscale]

Well it depends on if they are actually findable, if they are not on the list they could be worshiped by a single village of goat herders in CathayStirland.

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FTFY

Next time we go to our fief...🤯

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Well it depends on if they are actually findable, if they are not on the list they could be worshiped by a single village of goat herders in Cathay.

Ok, maybe not that obscure, but you get the idea, if we run through the list of three or so ideas we have and do not find anyone, then that is pretty much it, GG the Father.

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While this is true, I'm pretty confident it's not going to be the case. They might be obscure like Halétha, but they aren't going to be complete nothingburgers.

Assuming they aren't so hard to guess the Father was outright doomed from the get-go, the pool of candidates is sufficiently small as to make picking the Father a good choice when recruiting them.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Trying to make a Hypothises using the minimum amount of assumptions as possible. (being aware that the foundation of this is assuming my H1's are correct.)

1H1: The daughter is often/typically depicted as female. (39 possibilities)

Spoiler: List of gods

Slaanesh - God of self-indulgence and lust.
Rhya - Goddess of agriculture and birth and the wife of Taal.
Myrmidia - Goddess of warfare, strategy, beauty and honour, the daughter of Morr and Verena.
Verena - Goddess of justice and learning, the wife of Morr.
Shallya - Goddess of mercy and healing, the daughter of Morr and Verena. (Greek based Gods)/Salyak - Goddess of Charity (Kislev)
Ranald - God of trickery and thieves. (yes, I know, but gods can be weird like that.)
Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dark Helgis - Matron of Widows (Middenland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Rigg, the outcast Old One
Isha -Goddess of Fertility, Nature, Harvest, Bountiful Land
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Lileath - Goddess of the Moon, Dreams, and Fortune
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction.
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

1H0: The daughter does not have to be often/typically depicted as female

Spoiler: Fuck ton of gods

Khorne - God of hate, rage and bloodshed.
Nurgle - God of plague, despair and inevitable decay.
Slaanesh - God of self-indulgence and lust.
Tzeentch
Rhya - Goddess of agriculture and birth and the wife of Taal.
Taal - God of the wilds and the husband of Rhya.
Manann - God of the sea and the son of Taal and Rhya.
Morr - God of death and the husband of Verena.
Ulric - God of the winter and primal spheres of war.
Myrmidia - Goddess of warfare, strategy, beauty and honour, the daughter of Morr and Verena.
Ranald - God of trickery and thieves. (yes, I know, but gods can be weird like that.)
Shallya - Goddess of mercy and healing, the daughter of Morr and Verena. (yes, I know, but again, based on the Greek gods...)
Verena - Goddess of justice and learning, the wife of Morr.
Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Lucan and Luccina - Founder Gods of Luccini.
Sigmar - God of mankind, the founder of The Empire, considered to have ascended to Godhood.
Ursun - God of bears and strength, patron of Kislev.
Aach - God of Aach River and Aachen (Ostland)
Affairiche - God of Merchants (Bretonnia)
Ahalt - God of Hunting, Fertility, and Sacrifice (Wissenland)
Ahltler - God of Woodworking (Hochland)
Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Altaver - God of the River Aver (Averland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Artho the Unmoving - God of Tradition (Middenland)
Bögenauer - God of Bögenhafen and the River Bögen (Reikland)
Borchband, the Voice - God of Rhetoric and Civil Agitators (Reikland)
Bylorak - God of Bylorhof Marsh (Stirland)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dazh - God of Fire and the Sun (Kislev)
Dark Helgis - Matron of Widows (Middenland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Eldal - God of the Veldt (Ostermark)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Father Raven - God of Ravens and Crows (Averland)
Forsagh - God of Auguries (Averland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Gadd - God of the Worlds Edge Mountains (Stirland)
Gaffey - Halfling God of Building (Mootland)
Gargali - God of the Hidden Ore (Wissenland)
Gazul - Dwarf God and Protector of the Dead (Eastern Empire)
Gid - God of Peak Pass (Ostermark)
Gorol - God of Streams (Ostermark)
Grandfather Reik - God of the River Reik (Reikland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Grungni - Dwarf God of mines and artisans (Stirland), is also venerated as il Grugnio, in the Tilean city-state of Tobaro.
Gunndred - God of Rustling and Blackmail (Averland)
Guvaur - God of Bulls (Ostland)
Haendryk - God of Merchants (Wasteland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Handrich - God of Commerce (Reikland)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Hyssron - God of Sacred knolls (Averland)
Jack O' the Sea - Minor deity on the island of Sartosa, is considered patron of all pirates and protector of his city.[8]
Josias - Halfling God of Agriculture and Tobacco (Mootland)[1b][5b]
Kakarol - God of Horses (Ostland)
Kalita - God of Merchants (Kislev)
Karnos - God of Beasts (Tilea, Talabecland)
Karog - God of Forests (Nordland)
Katya - God of Disarming Beauty (Reikland)
Kavarich - God of Horses (Ostermark)
Khirreth - God of the Oberstein Wood (Wissenland)
Koppalt - God of the Koppens (Talabecland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Loerk - Lord of the Dance (Nordland)
Lupos - God of Predators (Hochland)
Manalt - God of Fishermen (Nordland)
Manhavok - God of Floods (Stirland)
Margileo - God of Honour (Averland)
Mercopio - God of Merchants (Tilea)
Mermedus - God of the Sea of Claws (Norsca)
Millavog - God of Dancing (Wissenland)
Mittlmund - Guardian of Restless Spirits (Wissenland)
Narlog the Inevitable - God of Inevitability (Ostland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
O Prospero - God of Merchants (Estalia)
Oboroch - God of the Middle Mountains (Hochland)
Phineas - Halfling God of Farming (Mootland)
Quinsberry - Halfling God of Ancestry (Mootland)
Renbaeth the Shrewd - Patron of Lawyers (Talabecland)
Rudric - God of Glory (Middenland)
Sarriel - Elven God of Dreams (Laurelorn Forest)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Seppel - God of Vengeance (Stirland)
Shaback - God of the Fens and Swamps
Shadow of Chill Hagh - People from Vedenza worship this mysterious figure.
Shadreth - God of Tracking (Talabecland)
Sheirrich, The Lost Wind - God of Wind (Averland)
Shrowl - God of Hunting (Hochland)
Skalor - God of Bartering (Ostland)
Snow King - God of Snow (North Empire)
Söll - God of the Sun (Wissenland)
Solden - God of Tyranny and Oppression (Outlawed)
Solkan - God of Vengeance and the Sun (Tilea and Estalia)
Stovarok - God of Storytelling (Nordland)
Stromfels - God of Storms and Sharks (Nordland)(Outlawed)
Styriss - God of Poachers (Ostermark)
The Azure Man - God of the Sky (Nordland)
Toar - God of Lightning (Talabecland)
Tor - God of Thunder and Lightning (Kislev)
Torothal - Elven God of Rain and Rivers (Laurelorn Forest)
Tahrveg, The Keen Arrow - God of Archery
Ursash - God of Bear Hunters (Ostland)
Urvijak - God of Morning Frost (Ostermark)
Uutann - God of Oak Trees (Middenland)
Vallich - God of Smithing and Ship Building (Nordland)
Vylmar - God of Decadence, Drinking and Debauchery (Outlawed)
Wendred - God of Duty and Service (Wissenland)
Wulfor - God of Lake Wolfen (Ostland)
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Djaf: The God of War and Death.
Geheb: God of the Earth and of Strength.
Khsar: God of the Desert.
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Phakth: God of the Sky and Justice.
Ptra: The Sun God
Qu'aph: The God of Snakes and Subtlety.
Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Sokth: God of Scorpions, Poisoners, and Thieves.
Tahoth: The Scholar of the Gods, patron of knowledge and wisdom.
Ualatp: The God of Scavengers.
Usirian: God of the Underworld.
Bisimilajir - Minor God of Slaves
Rigg, the outcast Old One
Asuryan - God of the Sun and Emperor of the Heavens
Hoeth -God of Knowledge, Learning and Wisdom
Isha -Goddess of Fertility, Nature, Harvest, Bountiful Land
Kurnous - God of the Hunt and Wilderness
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Lileath - Goddess of the Moon, Dreams, and Fortune
Loec - God of Music, Trickery, and Revelry
Vaul - God of Smiths
Addaioth - God of the All-Consuming Flame.
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction.
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.
Eldrazor - God of Battle.
Ellinill - God of Disaster.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Estreuth - Herald of Famine and Drought.
Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic.
Hukon - God of Earthquakes.
Khaine - God of violence, war, cruelty, blood, destruction, and murder.
Mathlann - God of Storms.
Nethu - The Gatekeeper of the Underworld.
Adamnan-na-Brionha- Elven god of the joy of dance and the fury of righteous slaying.
Khirkith: Goddess mentioned in the novel Malekith.
Kourdanrin: God mentioned in the novel Malekith.
Liadriel: Wood Elf god of music, poetry, dancing, and wine.
Meneloth: God mentioned in the novel Malekith.
Sarriel: Elven God of Dreams adored in the Laurelorn forest
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

1H0 in this case will be ignored going forward, as if this assumption is not right we will be shit out of luck, this is just to recognise that it is still an assumption.

2H1: no named father or mother (36)

Spoiler

Slaanesh - God of self-indulgence and lust.
Rhya - Goddess of agriculture and birth and the wife of Taal.
Verena - Goddess of justice and learning, the wife of Morr.
Ranald - God of trickery and thieves. (yes, I know, but gods can be weird like that.)
Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dark Helgis - Matron of Widows (Middenland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Rigg, the outcast Old One
Isha -Goddess of Fertility, Nature, Harvest, Bountiful Land
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction.
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

that honestly didn't do a lot

3H1: The goddess is usually depicted as Young or youthful. (or at least not old.)

Spoiler

Slaanesh - God of self-indulgence and lust.
Myrmidia - Goddess of warfare, strategy, beauty and honour, the daughter of Morr and Verena.
Shallya - Goddess of mercy and healing, the daughter of Morr and Verena. (Greek based Gods)/Salyak - Goddess of Charity (Kislev)
Ranald - God of trickery and thieves. (yes, I know, but gods can be weird like that.)
Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Lileath - Goddess of the Moon, Dreams, and Fortune
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction.
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

also not a lot.

so assuming H1,H2 and H3: the bare min that I think most of the thread is working within their head:

Slaanesh - God of self-indulgence and lust.
Ranald - God of trickery and thieves. (yes, I know, but gods can be weird like that.)
Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction.
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).


So... 31 candidates if we are being as minimal as possible. but while I very much enjoy the fact that Ranald technically survived the criteria to be his own daughter so far. I think its fair to remove him and Slaanesh at this point. bringing it down to 29.

now, as I was doing this I came up to an if/and error. twin gods.

If Hakarti is the twin of Atharti, and Hakarti is the dauther of Ranald, then Atharti must be the dauther of Ranald.

so the people that think Hakarti and Halétha are both candidates, Atharti kind of makes it a one or the other thing, not both.

but that does mean we can drop the search list by one, because if its Atharti or Hakarti, then we have found the other baring a real curveball.

28 Candidates for investigation.

this is the point that I'm fairly sure of my guesses (But they are guess's until more information.) but now lets really add some assumptions.

4H1: Both were 'born' post-classical (18 Candidates)

Spoiler

Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)

4H0: both were 'born' pre-classical (elves and Nehekhara) (10)

Spoiler

Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction/Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic (twins)
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

the Last one

5H1: Their aspects resemble Ranlad or Shallya (10)

Spoiler

Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)
Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction/Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic (twins)
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.

5H0: Their aspects don't resemble Ranlad or Shallya

Spoiler

Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers(Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

So if I had to make search lists they would be:

Goddesses that resemble Ranlad and Shallya that are Pre-Classical (1H1,2H1,3H1,4H0,5H1)

Neru: Goddess of Protection and the Moon
Basth: Goddess of Cats, Grace, and Love.
Ladrielle - Goddess of Mists and Travelers
Atharti - Goddess of Pleasure and Seduction/Hekarti - Goddess of Conjurations and Dark Magic (twins)
Drakira - Goddess of Retribution.

Goddesses that resemble Ranlad and Shallya that are Post-Classical (1H1,2H1,3H1,4H0,5H1)

Lady of the Lake - Goddess of purity and chivalry, patron of Bretonnia.
Fury - Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia, venerated as a minor god (Reikland)
Esmerelda - Halfling Goddess of Home and Hearth (Mootland)
Groplotta - Halfling Goddess of Herbalism and Nature (Mootland)
Halétha - Protector Goddess of the Hedgefolk (Forest of Shadows)

Goddesses That don't resemble Ranlad and Shallya that are Pre-Classical (1H1,2H1,3H1,4H0,5H0)

Sakhmet: Goddess of the Green Moon.
Asaph: The Goddess of Beauty, Magic, and Vengeance.
Anath Raema - Goddess of the Savage Hunt.
Ereth Khial - Goddess of the Underworld.
Torothal: Rainforest Goddess of Rain and Rivers ( Shadows Over Bögenhafen).

Goddesses That don't resemble Ranlad and Shallya that are Post-Classical (1H1,2H1,3H1,4H0,5H1)

Albaulea - Goddess of Farming (Stirland)
Arvala - Goddess of Carpentry (Ostermark)
Clio - Minor Goddess of History (Reikland)
Dehagli - Goddess of Tailors (Averland)
Dyrath - Goddess of Fertility and Womanhood (Reikland)
Haleth - Goddess of Fertility (Middenland)
Haleth - Lady of the Hunt (Northern Empire)
Hyacinth - Halfling Goddess of Fertility (Mootland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Scripsisti - God of scribes and calligraphers, she's worshipped by several minor sects of Verena as one of her aspects (Tilea, Talabecland)
Narvorga - Goddess of Fertility (Stirland)
Ktharta - Goddess of Lake Delb (Middenland)

 

[mathymancer]

No one asked for this but you are getting it anyway. Here is why I think we should recruit the Hedgewise.

A Modest Treatise on the Hedgewise and Halétha

Part I: The Hedgefolk and the Hedgewise
Before we dicscuss the Hedgewise we must ask, who are the Hedgefolk? I'm no expert on the lore, and most that I know I know from other posts on the thread - I recommend this post by Codex for a good overview. Here's a quick summary:
The Hedgefolk are practitioners of an ancient magical tradition that revolves around the Hedge, the conceptual border between wilderness and civilisation and between the material and the spiritual. They are also religious, with different splinter faction of the Hedgefolk worshipping different patrons: the ones we know about are Ranald, Verena, and Halétha. Most Hedgefolk can just make medicine and such, while some can actually use the Hedge to practice magic. Those are the Hedgewise.
Officaly, since the Hedgewise are unsanctioned magic users, they are hunted as witches by the cults. Unofficialy, the Hedgefolk are oppressed because their religious beliefs are disliked by the cults. Despite this, the Hedgefolk oppose Chaos and actual untrained magic users, and do their best to deal with them and protect their communities.

Why should we care? Well, let's start with the reason we are discussing the Hedgewise at all. When discussing possible magical traditions we can bring to the project, they were mentioned right after the Damsels and Ice Witches:

"What about your lot, Kurtis?" Algard asks.

"The Middenland Hedgewise call themselves 'Cunning Folk'. They're Ranaldites and they have a long-running feud with the Ulricans, so it might be difficult to bring them on board. The Nordlanders are Haléthans and as such are largely concentrated east of the Salz to watch over the Forest of Shadows, so they don't really have any bad blood with the Elves."

Click to shrink...

Mathilde also mentions them twice: once, only in her thoughts, when talking with Max and Johann about the possible contributors to the project:

Max looks up from the notes he's been taking. "So by my count, you've got four nations, three tribes, four Cults, and two Orders that could all have pieces of the puzzle, and most of them aren't inclined to share, and some of them might not even still exist."

"At least." You hadn't mentioned the Hedgewise, after all.

Click to shrink...

And once more by name when talking with Egrimm about the knowledge humans have regarding the Waystones:

"Our ancestors have been living amongst the Waystones since the first one was erected here. I refuse to believe that in six thousand years, the collective minds of a continent have failed to produce any usable data. Nothing mass-produced on that scale is that inscrutable. The problem isn't whether it exists, it's who's keeping it to themselves." You gesture at the room around you. "This Guild is a thousand years old." You gesture at yourself. "The Hedgefolk advised Sigmar when He was building the Empire." You look to Egrimm. "Your Order built a pyramid in Altdorf, and nobody believes it was just for the aesthetic. We are inheritors of magical traditions that predate Teclis' White Tower. That information is out there, and I'll find who has it and drag them to the table, one way or another."

Click to shrink...

This does not in itself ensure that they know anything about Waystones, of course. But that characters in the story think to mention them in this context implies that they consider that at least plausible. And it is likely that whatever secrets they do have won't be found elsewhere, due to their insular nature and the fact that they practice oral traditions rather than write books that we can find in some other group's library.
On another note, the Hedgefolk are a prosecuted group, which chafes under the oppression of the state despite being against Chaos and helpful to the communities they live in. Aiding those who suffer unjust oppresion by the law is pretty much the definition of the Protector. If the 'price' for helping the Hedgefolk is aiding them in some way, all the better - helping those people is a religious and moral imperative even before we consider the fact that some of them actually worship our God.

But there is another reason to care about the Hedgewise: theirs is the only precursor tradition to the Grey Order that Mathilde is aware of. When Mathilde is given her rank of Lady Magister, Kurtis theorises that the space which the Grey College resides in is the Hedge, while Walther Kupfer says it was somehow stolen by the Hedgefolk Goddess Halétha :

"It is the Hedge," says Provost Kurtis Krammovitch, and you turn to see him sitting just beside Algard. "And the Hedgewise have been visiting it since before the time of Sigmar."

"It is the Shadows that give the Forest of Shadows its name," says Lord Magister Walther Kupfer, "stolen by the Goddess Halétha to empower those who are opposed to it."

Click to shrink...

Even if it turns out the Hedgefolk don't have much or any useful information regarding the Waystones, they are likely to have information that could be useful to Mathilde as a practitioner of Ulgu magic. And of all possible groups we may reach out to in order to learn their secrets, the Haléthan Hedgewise are most likely to share their secrets honestly and generously, since they will be divinely informed we can be trusted. After all, Halétha is Ranald's daughter.

Part II: Is Halétha Ranald's Daughter? (yes)
Since we learned that Ranald has two daughters a number of theories have been given as to their possible identities. Some claim that we really have no way to distinguish between them, and we can't know anything about the daughters since Shallya for example doesn't really resemble her parents Morr and Verena, and one wouldn't guess her parentage unless they were told. But consider the wording of the update in which we learned of the daughters:

among the picnicking couple and Their twin flocks of crows and doves are two small girls, one who heavily resembles Her father with a hint of Her mother, and the other Her mother with a hint of Her father.

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The daughters are said to each heavily resemble one of their parents. So we do have somewhere to start - we are looking for female Goddesses which resemble, in some sense, Ranald or Shallya. But also, the Father face of the coin was our reward for our dedication to Ranald, and an unsolvable riddle doesn't sound like much of a reward. If Ranald expected us to never find his daughters he wouldn't have given us a coin face which only works if we find his daughters. This is also true from a meta perspective: if you are given a puzzle in a quest you can trust that the puzzle can be solved, especially if the puzzle was given as a reward. At least if you trust in the QM. And I, for one, have faith in both Boney and Ranald.

So what evidence do we have that Halétha is Ranald's daughter? Well, she resembles Ranald in quite a number of ways. In fact, in her very first mention in the quest she is listed along a number of Gods as a Goddess whose runes are conductive to shadow magic, a list that also includes Ranald:

The Runes that have proven through decades of trial and error performed by College Wizards to be suitable for the flow of Shadow Magic are a varied bunch borrowing heavily from Eltharin and Thieves Cant, but also heavy with Runes affiliated with various Gods - including Ranald, but also including Renbaeth, Loec, Sokth, Qu'aph, Ptra, Halétha, Uxmac, and Anath Raema. The theory is that these aren't so much invocations to those Gods, but symbols that resonate with concepts that those Gods are affiliated with, and don't directly draw their attention

Click to shrink...

Note that there are only two female Goddesses in this list. The other is Anath Raema, Goddess of the savage hunt and sister to Khaine. I think it's a pretty safe bet that neither the goddess of the savage hunt nor the red-handed god of murder and cruelty are daughters of Shallya.
That's hardly Halétha's only connection to Ranald. In the quote above Kupfer claims that Halétha stole the liminal space the Grey College resides in from the Forest of Shadows, in order to empower those who are opposed to it. And she is said to protect the Hedgefolk communites around the Forest of Shadows. And there is another thing about her - she is also, at least partly, a goddess of fertility. In the warhammer sourcebook Shades of Empire, the one which provides most of the information about the Hedgefolk and Halétha', there is a spell called Halétha's joy which guarantees conception. Shallya is, among other things, the Goddess of childbirth. So Halétha is a Goddess related to shadows, stealing, and protection, as well as fertility. That's a very good fit for someone that resembles Ranald with a hint of Shallya. And there is more: other Hedgefolk sects worship other Gods, and the two we know of are Ranald (yet another connection) and Verena, said to be Shallya's mother. Finally, there appears to be a Goddess of fertility called Haleth. There is very little information about Haleth, but from the resemblance of the name we can speculate she might be Halétha's sister, the one who more strongly resembles Shallya. She is also minor Goddess, and relatively unknown, which is another thing we might expect since no one knows of Ranald's daughters

This does not prove anything, of course. But Halétha resembles Ranald in many different ways, and also has a touch of Shallya in her, and no other Goddess that anyone could think of fits those criteria. If the riddle can be solved - and again, it makes no sense to assume otherwise, both in and out of the quest - she is a fairly obvious solution. And as a final and mostly inconsequential note in support of the theory, when Mathilde is engraving runes on her staff and listing all the different Gods whose runes she's using, a list that includes Halétha, there is this line:

The theory is that these aren't so much invocations to those Gods, but symbols that resonate with concepts that those Gods are affiliated with, and don't directly draw their attention. You hope that's true - the one God in your life is more than enough.

Click to shrink...

which is a pretty funny bit of probably accidental foreshadowing.

Part III: Desperate Emotional Pleas
By now I hope the possible benefits from going to the Haléthan Hedgewise are obvious. Even aside from the possible Waystone and Ulgu lore, the Father face of the coin makes the daughters themselves trust in Mathilde, not only their followers. This means that Halétha herself might be inclined to help us, perhaps not quite to the extent Ranald does but at least to some degree. The favor of a Goddess - even a minor one - is nothing to scoff at. And when that Goddess has strong connections to shadow magic...Maybe Halétha's favor won't have any direct applications to the Waystone project, but I am sure Mathilde will have some use for it.

But the counter argument is obvious: if the assumptions made in this post are incorrect, the Hedgewise become much less useful. Maybe the Haléthan Hedgewise have no useful Waystone lore, maybe they have no useful Ulgu lore, maybe Halétha isn't actually Ranald's daughter. I hope I've made clear why I think none of those things are very likely, but they are certainly possible. So why not do things that yield certain payouts? Why take the risk? Why gamble?
Look, I'm not asking for much here. A single AP, and turning the face of the coin to the Father. If you've ever supported a research action with the Gambler you've already sacrificed that much. And this isn't some ten turn research plan - if this pans out, we get a reward right away, and it is a reward that helps us with our project and probably with our magic and possibly with our faith. And it might not pan out, in which case you have my permission to tar and feather me. But we have to take risks in this project. Any recruitment action might end up being 'wasted', when it turns out the people whose secrets we've bargained for actually don't have any useful secrets. This is hardly the greatest chance we're going to take in this project.

On a personal note: I've created this account solely for this quest, and the thing that tipped me over into finally making it was the faith update. I read it and immediately thought that Halétha seems to fit, and I so badly to write a post explaining why that I signed on to SV. It took a while for my account to be approved and by then there were a few people who already mentioned Halétha, but I added own take anyway. My main problem was that I had no idea who her possible sister may be, and originally I thought maybe the Hedgefolk who worship Verena actually worship her sister, and while searching the wiki I saw that there is a Goddess with a very similar name. I half expected someone to find some obvious flaw in that theory, but the opposite happened: someone mentioned Halétha's connection to fertility and therefore to Shallya, which was the only missing piece in the theory. And then I kept digging and saw even more connections to Ranald, with the runes and the space of the Grey college, and all the while no other theory came anywhere close to being as plausible (though an honorable mention goes to the theory of The Lady).
What I am trying to say here is that I care deeply about this, and I really do believe in this course of action. If it doesn't happen this turn I'll be advocating the turn after that, and the turn after that, and so on. This isn't a threat; the thread has its fair share of voters with pet causes, and my interest in Halétha's parentage will be no more disruptive than people's thirst for AV research or apparition binding or windherding. No, this is no threat. This is a cry for help.

If we don't do this now we will do this 'later', and later is a time that never arrives. Like windherding, like apparition binding, it is all too likely to become something that voters mention they would maybe like to do sometime but never actually vote for. And I will be there, fighting in vain for a vote that can never win, for the rest of time. I will become a Halétha themed Omegahugger, and that is a fate worse than undeath. Please, have mercy. Save my soul. Vote for recruiting the Hedgewise.