This, talk to the elves before recruiting the elves please.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Can you (or someone) point to the relevant WoG? Because as I recall it the prepared lie was specifically about what gambit to try on Qretch, a prisoner at our mercy that we wanted to influence in one of multiple ways which would require a specific lie among several options. But I don't see why a generic "I'm a LM here for good and specific reasons completely unrelated to you and standing in my way despite that would get you in trouble" that it then personalized and given details for whenever anyone catches us shouldn't work.
This is what Kurtis has to say on the subject:
Kurtis explicitly offers the Haléthan Hedgewise as good candidates for Hedgewise to bring into the project. The point isn't just that the Ranaldites might not want to join, but that having Ranaldites on board might cause friction with others involved in the project, as the political connection between the Eonir and the Empire is founded on the Ulrican religious connection. I'm not saying that getting the Ranaldites on board is impossible or anything, I'm saying that we want to check out Haletha anyway and Kurtis noted that they are good candidates for recruitment so we may as well.
Actually, it might be best to clarify: @Boney, would an action to recruit the Hedgewise have to specify which splinter faction of the Hedgewise we're recruiting, or is that something that will be voted on during the course of the action, kind of like how our last two recruitment actions lead to follow up votes?
How many viable candidates are there? The Haletha and Haleth theory is, in my opinion, by far the likeliest. Then we have Hekarti and Atharti, who we think are candidates pretty much only because they are twin sister Goddesses. The Lady is...I guess it's possible, but I don't really find it very compelling, and there's no obvious candidate for a sister. And every other theory isn't close to being as plausible in my opinion.
Recruiting Damsels just because we want to use the Father is not a good idea in my opinion because I fully expect the Father to have no effect and getting Bretonnia involved in the project is tricky for reasons that have already been discussed. I do intend to do the action to get Bretonnian books for our library on the same turn we do the two recruitment actions, which hopefully will allow us to test that theory as well.
It would, if not for the fact that it's quite possible that the next turn we'll have some other use for coin, and this will be put off forever. Just compare the discourse immediately following the Truth vs Faith vote to right now. Look at how we had lots of people theorising and talking about how we'll definitely take an action to check out the different candidates and so on, and then look to the conversation we're having now. Interest fades with time, and the next turn could be three months away if not more.
My hope is that at the end of this turn we'll purchase books on the minor gods of empire, as we've already talked about doing, and that will reignite interest in the Father long enough for a vote that includes the Father face of the coin to pass. I am much less hopeful that next turn, with however many new things vying for our attention, there will still be enough interest in the coin. Especially when we can't know for certain if the Father face of the coin will actually help us with any given group, so votes to use it will always be susceptible to the argument that "maybe this will work but this other thing we can do will definitely be useful so let's do it later".
I actually agree, and don't think that's the likely theory, but others disagree and so I'm willing to check.
Codex
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It specified lies that you have developed beforehand, you can't just make up a lie on the spot and use it.
it would have to be specified, because they're separate groups in almost every way.
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- Actually pretty lost
The Father is going to be useless if we use it on a non-Daughter regardless of if we use it during recruiting or not. A turn will have to be spent without the Gambler at some point, and delaying this by a turn is pointless. I see literally no upside to spending extra AP for a check that could be performed during recruitment, and might have large effects on said recruitment.
No? It explicitly says "might be difficult to bring onboard", and says nothing at all about causing problems with the project if we managed it.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Eh. For me the whole finding the Daughters thing isn't a very high priority to happen fast in and off itself. The only reason I care to do it within the next couple of turns instead of adding it somewhere in the list alongside our other personal projects of interest (like AV and Windherding) is because it might be of direct and strong aid to our recruitment efforts. Making said recruitment efforts less optimal because it might make finding the Daughters easier is not in the cards for me.
Codex
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@Boney So I have a question. If we get Lady Magister Elrisse, do we also get Magister Verspasian Kant? Back during the Karag Dum Expedition, the two were part of the same choice, and despite being a Magister, Egrimm was still effectively Alric's apprentice. It feels like the Light College extends the "apprenticeship" program for longer than the average college, but maybe it was just that Verspasian would have only accompanied his teacher if she was risking her life, and he'd see no reason to join her to Laurelorn.
If Elrisse feels Verspasian could be of use and he has nothing more important to do, she's likely to bring him in.
Fair enough I guess, that's a matter of personal taste, but I have to say that this project is quite unlike AV and Windherding in the sense that a single action could 'finish' it, if we identify the correct group to approach. Our other personal project are much longer term.
"might be difficult to bring them on board" doesn't imply that the only problem is that they wouldn't be willing to join. It might be difficult to bring them on board because other factions, such as the Ulricans involved with the Eonir, will object and cause us trouble. You are interpreting that pharse in a much narrower sense than I am.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
There is an upside to delaying it by specifically one turn. Namely that it gives us the time to investigate the factions in question instead of blindly recruiting a bunch of people we know nothing but second hand gossip about. I don't even know if we want Tindomiel on board. All we know is that they worship some magic goddess and voted against isolationism. And about the Halethans we know nothing other than that they exist and that they are probably easier to recruit than certain Ranaldite Hedgewise.
Even if Kurtis doesn't say it, our project includes a Light Order Wizard who is the head of intelligence of her Order and of high loyalty to the Empire. And it might or might not have direct Ulrican involvement sooner or later. Recruiting unsanctioned mages from within the Empire's borders does not come without the cost of increased political friction, even if we manage to minimize said friction. So I definitely want to have some kind if reason to do so beyond a "collect them all" attitude.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
There is literally no benefit to doing this. Using the Father means we can't use the Gambler, but we already can't use the Gambler on every action. In fact, your plan doubles the number of turns we can't use the Gambler on!
I find it extremely unlikely that the Eonir will care, and the Ulricans aren't part of this project and so don't get a say. I think you're reading way too much into that.
It makes perfect sense if your interested in both finding out if a god is a daughter and recruiting, not just recruiting.
Maybe. I still feel we'll be adding yet another political landmine to an already politically fraught situation, but you're free to disagree. But since Boney clarified that we have to specify which Hedgewise group we will recruit, and there is no way we're going to end up recruiting two different Hedgewise factions, recruiting the Ranaldites in effect means giving up on the Haléthans, and that is just such a waste when we received a reward from our God that (probably) makes Haléthans trust us.
I feel like people are falling into the bias outcome fallacy a bit with Haletha.
Just because it would be nice if she was one of the daughters, don't mean she is more likely to be one.
Currently, she is as likely as any other named goddess outside of the big ones.
It's just that if we are throwing a dart at the board, might as well go for the most useful if right.
She really, really, isn't. There is a lot of evidence going for that theory, far more than any other theory proposed so far.
If you assume the assumption that 'kid gods have divine aspects that resemble their parents' as correct.
But one: that's a assumption of the thread, not stated in quest.
And two: current evidence doesn't play out like that, Maann, Shallya and Myrmidia don't really resemble their parents. So assuming that the connection of Shadows= Ranld is daddy is a bit off.
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- Actually pretty lost
No it doesn't, because using the Father during recruiting will also reveal if they're a daughter. A Cult being divinely informed by their God that we're trustworthy is going to be extremely obvious to the point that they'll probably ask about it.
He said they're almost unrelated, which means that getting one does not preclude getting the other, the same way that getting the Light Order didn't preclude getting the Jade Order.
Now, it's entirely possible that we'll roll up to the Ranaldites and be told they don't know anything about Waystones, but that's a different concern.
Codex
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I would like to draw people's attention to a neat little factoid:
This has been Mathilde for the past few months:
I tried editing a Witch Hunter hat on the shorter guy there but I couldn't manage it. Just imagine a hat.
This is Mira
This is Marrisith. For visualisation, this is Mathilde in between a Mira/Marrisith sandwich:
K von Carstein
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- Belgium
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What I had in mind was
Turn a: use the Father to investigate one or several suspects for Daughter, while at the same time beginning the project, and investigate a few elves houses.
Turn b: use the Gambler to recruit the most useful elvish house and recruit the Daughtery organisations without the Coin, after all the trust is likely to continue even when the Father isn't in play anymore (like the gratitude of Vlag).
Yeah, I'm ready to use 1 AP for finding daughters because it would be out of our hair, but not doing it wouldn't lake me lose any sleep.
Nothing stop us from investigating and begin the project in one turn, then recruit the interesting people in the next.
That. Jumping blindly without knowing for sure if those people are useful is a potential AP lost for nothing.
Edit:
Yeah, that's pretty spotty evidence.
But if it's not the Daughter, we would have used the Father for nothing, and it wouldn't make the recruiting of those people easier.
On the other hand, if we first do a turn where we only investigate with the Father, then the next turn we recruit with the Gambler the most useful non-Daughtery group. In that case, there's 2 possible scenarios.
1: there's one or several of the investigated groups that are Daughtery. Thanks to our investigation of them (and presumably meeting with some of them to better figure them), they know have a very good opinion of us, that is likely to continue next turn. Next turn, that good opinion makes it easier to recruit them and we use the Gambler on one other group. So that will be 2 groupes that will be easier to recruit.
2: none are Daughtery, but we still have investigated a lot of groups, and still know what are the most useful. The second turn we use the Gambler on the best group. That's still one group easier to recruit.
If we immediately try to recruit and it isn't the Daughters, the Coin will facilitate 0 recruiting.
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Summarising the evidence as 'Shadows= Ranld is daddy' is absurd, there is a lot more than that. And on the update the daughters were explicitly noted to be similar to their parents, one more similar to Ranald and the other to Shallya. From a meta perspective, do you think Boney came up with the idea that Ranald has daughters completely at random? It seems to me much more likely that the daughters do resemble their parents in some ways.
I didn't mean that we wouldn't be able to recruit more than one Hedgewise faction. I mean that we won't, because there's no way a vote that includes recruiting more than one Hedgewise faction will ever pass.
- Location
- Utrecht
We should put marrisith and Mathilde on some battlements under the rain.
"would you like me to describe the scene, or should i fetch you a box?"
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The upsides of recruiting a Daughter with the Father dramatically outweigh the upsides of recruiting a non-Daughter with the Gambler. One is a +20 to the roll, the other is a complete paradigm shift in how the interaction plays out, by Word of Boney.
And of course, your suggested course of action means spending double the AP on recruiting groups that would only cost one, which would be a bad deal even if the only consideration was the Gambler's +20.
K von Carstein
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But if we try to recruit a non-Daughter with the Father, it's completely useless. I'm counting on that paradigm shift to happen when we interact during the investigation phase, so we can maximise our recruiting boost. Like that, in the recruiting phase we would enjoy the paradigm shift AND the Gambler, because the paradigm shift presumably continue after the turn it happened.
Concerning the investigation, I would want to do that even if the Daughter thing didn't exist. I simply want to make sure the people we will try recruiting are actually useful for the project. We can also begin the project during the investigation turn, WoG said that adding people after the beginning doesn't have penalities.
Edit: I would propose to delay recruiting anyway, so using the Daughter instead of the Gambler makes more sense in that case.
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