Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Codex]

I don't know about anything like that in terms of Finubar's policies. Very little is mentioned of Finubar himself in 6th and 8th Edition (I have yet to read 7th Edition High Elves). Maybe that's a thing from the novels, but all the Army Books I read say is that he spent a lot of his initial years on voyage after voyage and barely attended court, which caused discontent and vile rumors spread about him until the Everqueen Alarielle came and shut it down, and that he started voyaging less as things progressed.

Click to shrink...

Ok , so that's annoying. I checked again and the part about Finubar's trade policies isn't in the Finubar section of 8th Edition High Elves, it's in the Bel Hathor section, the Phoenix King before him. This is when he first arrived in the Old World and was surprised to see that humans weren't primitive savages and decided it would be best to have them as allies rather than enemies. So he came back to Ulthuan, was lauded as a hero, and made a report to Bel Hathor. Bel Hathor was the one who decided to lift the edict denying men's access to Ulthuan, and Finubar was the one who suggested Lothern be the place they would be invited to. The treaty of Amity and Commerce was signed 2150 IC, and Finubar took control of Ulthuan around 2164 IC, so while he might have been the one to suggest it, Bel Hathor was the one who opened trade with humans.

There's nothing about Finubar flooding the Old World market with money to enrich their armies. It seems the Elves were satisfied with the turn of events. The exact wording in Page 26 of 8th Edition High Elves is "The Elves were content to have powerful allies in the Old World".

 

[mathymancer]

Also, while it's been a while IRL, it hasn't been all that many turns since we unlocked Apparition binding.

Click to shrink...

It has been seven turns, which is quite a while. And yeah, it's been a long while IRL, which I care about. IRL is where I live. And it is perfectly possible that we will recruit without using the Father, less turn there was pushback against ever recruiting without the gambler and I can see people insisting on that in the future.
Let's do this right now, instead of hoping that in three months to half a year there will still be the will in the voter base to do it.

 

[K von Carstein]

It has been seven turns, which is quite a while. And yeah, it's been a long while IRL, which I care about. IRL is where I live. And it is perfectly possible that we will recruit without using the Father, less turn there was pushback against ever recruiting without the gambler and I can see people insisting on that in the future.
Let's do this right now, instead of hoping that in three months to half a year there will still be the will in the voter base to do it.

Click to shrink...

The fact it takes time irl is the exact same reason I don't want to spend several turns more to recruit. I want to begin the project as soon as possible, i don't want to read several turns worth of recruiting.

Concerning the Father, I would say not to use it for recruiting next turn but the turn after that. The Gambler makes it easier to recruit other groups, and we're sure it will have an effect, while the same can't be said for the Father. After recruiting the most primordial groups for the project, we can try recruiting the less important with the Father. And if we unknowingly already took in groups serving the Daughters, the Father will still tell us.

One or 2 turns shouldn't be too long irl for thé voter base to loose thé will to test the Father.

 

[Alratan]

The fact it takes time irl is the exact same reason I don't want to spend several turns more to recruit. I want to begin the project as soon as possible, i don't want to read several turns worth of recruiting.

Concerning the Father, I would say not to use it for recruiting next turn but the turn after that. The Gambler makes it easier to recruit other groups, and we're sure it will have an effect, while the same can't be said for the Father. After recruiting the most primordial groups for the project, we can try recruiting the less important with the Father. And if we unknowingly already took in groups serving the Daughters, the Father will still tell us.

One or 2 turns shouldn't be too long irl for thé voter base to loose thé will to test the Father.

Click to shrink...

That's a good point. The most efficient way to use the Father is probably to recruit a whole bunch of different groups into the project using the Gambler, and then switch to the Father and see if their attitude radically changes compared to how they acted before.

 

[K von Carstein]

That's a good point. The most efficient way to use the Father is probably to recruit a whole bunch of different groups into the project using the Gambler, and then switch to the Father and see if their attitude radically changes compared to how they acted before.

Click to shrink...

Yes, exactly. That way we can maximise the Father's effect, and use the Gambler (or any other faces) to do other things. And the Gambler allows us to be sure that the most important groups (imo Hekarti house, Cadaeth's ward and Damsels) can be recruited more easily.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

It has been seven turns, which is quite a while. And yeah, it's been a long while IRL, which I care about. IRL is where I live. And it is perfectly possible that we will recruit without using the Father, less turn there was pushback against ever recruiting without the gambler and I can see people insisting on that in the future.
Let's do this right now, instead of hoping that in three months to half a year there will still be the will in the voter base to do it.

Click to shrink...

The overwhelming consensus was to use the Father on a turn where we recruit as many possible Daughters at once as we can. There is no reason to rush this.

Also, I'd rather contact the Ranaldian Hedgewise first so they can put in a good word with the others.

 

[Jreengus]

That's a good point. The most efficient way to use the Father is probably to recruit a whole bunch of different groups into the project using the Gambler, and then switch to the Father and see if their attitude radically changes compared to how they acted before.

Click to shrink...

Strongly disagree, the father is going to be massively better for recruiting a daughter than the gambler. If we do this we lose out on the biggest potential benefit the father offers.

Also just for the record, I will object to any plan for next turn that doesn't have the coin on the Nightprowler (or possibly the Deceiver if someone can come up with a good lie) to aid our investigation into Alric and reduce any backlash from getting caught.

 

[Altom]

IRL is where I live.

Click to shrink...

So, uh, how are things going out there?

 

[mathymancer]

The overwhelming consensus was to use the Father on a turn where we recruit as many possible Daughters at once as we can. There is no reason to rush this.

Also, I'd rather contact the Ranaldian Hedgewise first so they can put in a good word with the others.

Click to shrink...

The Ranaldian Hedgewise have a beef with the Ulricans and Kurtis seemed to think that recruiting them isn't a good idea. Also, how many daughters do you think there are? Most of the theories are going to end up being false, so the coin won't actually help for most of them. We should start by using the coin on those we actually think are likely to be daughters.

Concerning the Father, I would say not to use it for recruiting next turn but the turn after that. The Gambler makes it easier to recruit other groups, and we're sure it will have an effect, while the same can't be said for the Father. After recruiting the most primordial groups for the project, we can try recruiting the less important with the Father. And if we unknowingly already took in groups serving the Daughters, the Father will still tell us.

Click to shrink...

That's a good point. The most efficient way to use the Father is probably to recruit a whole bunch of different groups into the project using the Gambler, and then switch to the Father and see if their attitude radically changes compared to how they acted before.

Click to shrink...

This is a good way to search for the daugthers but a bad way to actually utilize the coin to help us. If we want to reap the benefits of having a divine stamp of approval the best way to do this is to make the recruitment easier; finding out after the fact that the Father could have helped just makes the decision to recruit without it feel like a missed opportunity.

And again, I'm going to keep saying this: the Haletha theory is realy strong. Like, really really strong. It's not a shot in the dark, it's a very educated guess. Attempting to test every long shot theory at once is a bad idea.

One of the great ironies of the gambler is that it makes risky gambles less so. I don't think using the Father on Haletha is a big gamble because I am very confident in that theory, but even if you are somehow not convinced we have to be willing to take some risks.

 

[mathymancer]

Also just for the record, I will object to any plan for next turn that doesn't have the coin on the Nightprowler (or possibly the Deceiver if someone can come up with a good lie) to aid our investigation into Alric and reduce any backlash from getting caught.

Click to shrink...

I get where you're coming from, I really do, but please reconsider. There is always going to be another use for the coin to compete with the Father. Mathilde is good at stealth and surveillance, and she is perfectly capable of doing this without divine intervention.

 

[Codex]

An incredibly important note on the Night Prowler:

- The Night Prowler: As long as you are outside of private property and within a town or city, nobody will question your presence and nobody will be able to find you if you do not wish them to. For non-human population centres, will work if it's not completely unknown for humans to be present, or if you are disguised as that species.

Click to shrink...

It explicitly does not work on private property, which is likely to be the majority of the places that Alric resides in. Night Prowler is most useful when we're trying to get information from the streets without being caught, but the information we'd be looking for isn't the kind you find on the streets. It's the type that exists in private property.

It still assists in getaways if someone finds us. If Mathilde leaves private property and hits the streets, she cannot be found unless she wishes for it to be the case. I just felt the need to point out some of Night Prowler's limitations. Don't expect it to let us sneak around in Alric's room unopposed or anything.

 

[K von Carstein]

The Ranaldian Hedgewise have a beef with the Ulricans and Kurtis seemed to think that recruiting them isn't a good idea. Also, how many daughters do you think there are? Most of the theories are going to end up being false, so the coin won't actually help for most of them. We should start by using the coin on those we actually think are likely to be daughters.




This is a good way to search for the daugthers but a bad way to actually utilize the coin to help us. If we want to reap the benefits of having a divine stamp of approval the best way to do this is to make the recruitment easier; finding out after the fact that the Father could have helped just makes the decision to recruit without it feel like a missed opportunity.

And again, I'm going to keep saying this: the Haletha theory is realy strong. Like, really really strong. It's not a shot in the dark, it's a very educated guess. Attempting to test every long shot theory at once is a bad idea.

One the great ironies of the gambler is that it makes risky gambles less so. I don't think using the Father on Haletha is a big gamble because I am very confident in that theory, but even if you are somehow not convinced we have to be willing to take some risks.

Click to shrink...

It could be true, the arguments are indeed convincing for Haletha. But I don't think her cult will be as important and knowledgeable as other groups like some of the Houses, the Damsels or the Ice Witches, and I would rather recruit those quickly with the Gambler so we can at long last begin to work on the Waystones.

After next turn, I agree we should use the Father to seek the Daughters, and maybe recruit a few other organisations, but I'm really eager to get to work on that damn project🙃

 

[Jreengus]

An incredibly important note on the Night Prowler:

It explicitly does not work on private property, which is likely to be the majority of the places that Alric resides in. Night Prowler is most useful when we're trying to get information from the streets without being caught, but the information we'd be looking for isn't the kind you find on the streets. It's the type that exists in private property.

It still assists in getaways if someone finds us. If Mathilde leaves private property and hits the streets, she cannot be found unless she wishes for it to be the case. I just felt the need to point out some of Night Prowler's limitations. Don't expect it to let us sneak around in Alric's room unopposed or anything.

Click to shrink...

Our goal is to "... personally investigate what Alric is up to in Talabecland, and to inform Mira of all the details". While that may require some breaking and entering it is almost certain to involve other investigations like tailing him and talking people on the street. I'm not massively worried about Mathilde getting caught breaking into his rooms or something as I think she's competent enough to avoid getting caught doing that, I'm worried about so Light Patriarch BS allowing him to bypass Ulgu disguise spells and realise she is in the city with him asking about him/trailing him, that is what nightprowler should avoid.

 

[K von Carstein]

I'm not massively worried about Mathilde getting caught breaking into his rooms or something as I think she's competent enough to avoid getting caught doing that,

Click to shrink...

On the contrary, I think that's the most risky part. Alric knows (or at least must highly suspect) that Mira is out to get him, so warding his room against intrusions would be an elementary precaution. He was the Magister Patriarch of the Colleges, and both Egrimm and Mira recognised that he's a very powerful wizard.

I agree with your other arguments in favour of the Night Prowler, but on the other hand, I'd prefer to be sure we can recruit who we want in the project. Both would be okay for me, with a slight preference on the Gambler.

 

[mathymancer]

After next turn, I agree we should use the Father to seek the Daughters, and maybe recruit a few other organisations, but I'm really eager to get to work on that damn project🙃

Click to shrink...

Look, I get it. But I really do think there is always going to be something else that someone considers more important. The coin is too damn useful - this turn, there are going to be people who want to use the night prowler. Next turn something else will come up - maybe we will want to follow up on our investigation or Alric by dealing with whatever he was investigating, and people will want to use the coin on that. Maybe something else will come up, as a result of recruiting whoever we end up recruiting this coming turn.

The meta story of this thread is that things that many people agree should be done 'sometime' keep getting put off. There are going to be more things people want to use their actions for next turn, not less, because things will come up. They always do.

As for why we should recruit the Hedgewise, I am probably going to end up writing a 9000 word treatise on why recruiting the Hedgewise is a very good idea, but until then I'll just mention one important difference from the Damsels and Ice Witches: they are right here in the Empire. We were promised a Damsel on the conidtion that we base our operations in Bretonnia - do you think we're going to get Damsel that will sit in Laurelorn and do nothing but work on our project? Same thing goes for Ice Witches. Even if we get them to buy in on the project, simple geography is going to make actual colloboration incredibely difficult.

 

[K von Carstein]

The meta story of this thread is that things that many people agree should be done 'sometime' keep getting put off. There are going to be more things people want to use their actions for next turn, not less, because things will come up. They always do.

Click to shrink...

If we don't recruit the Hedgewise this turn we can always recruit them later (people will probably still want them for the project) and then we would use the Father.

As for why we should recruit the Hedgewise, I am probably going to end up writing a 9000 word treatise on why recruiting the Hedgewise is a very good idea, but until then I'll just mention one important difference from the Damsels and Ice Witches: they are right here in the Empire. We were promised a Damsel on the conidtion that we base our operations in Bretonnia - do you think we're going to get Damsel that will sit in Laurelorn and do nothing but work on our project? Same thing goes for Ice Witches. Even if we get them to buy in on the project, simple geography is going to make actual colloboration incredibely difficult.

Click to shrink...

I'm not saying we shouldn't recruit the Hedgewise, I'm saying we shouldn't do it rn because they aren't a priority. Concerning the Damsels and Ice Witches, that's why I want to use the Gambler for at least one of them.

And maybe Damsels wouldn't be motivated to come just for us, but Ice Witches have already worked with us and have a very direct interest in fighting against Choas. Getting them on board will probably be significantly less difficult.

 

[mathymancer]

Concerning the Damsels and Ice Witches, that's why I want to use the Gambler for at least one of them.

And maybe Damsels wouldn't be motivated to come just for us, but Ice Witches have already worked with us and have a very direct interest in fighting against Choas. Getting them on board will probably be significantly less difficult.

Click to shrink...

The gambler isn't that strong - it makes us luckier, it doesn't completely change the attitudes of those we want to recruit. We are going to work on the Eonir and Karaz Ankhor parts of the Waystone network, and on the Waystones in the empire. Whatever is going on with the Kislev Waystones is probably qualitatively different due to the Widow's involvement, and bringing Ice Witches on board means adding yet another complication to an already incredibely ambitious project.

I also disagree on the Hedgewise not being a priority, but I'll save that for my upcoming post.

 

[Pempelune]

The Damsels and Ice Witches are going to be tough as hell to recruit. So far all of the recruitments we've had have had a cost, the Damsels and Ice Witches will be the same - except in all likelihood, they're going to ask for something that's way tougher to give. Hell, when we asked, Carcassone wanted us to campaign against the Iron Orcs in exchange for their help. And the last time we asked the Ice Witches for help, they asked us to go retrieve a powerful cursed item from a Kurgan tribe, and we almost died.

So yes, they likely have information that we want, but it would be better to recruit them after we've already started work. When we start getting actionable insights, when we start getting results, the other players will be much more interested in joining, and we can recruit them from a position of force.

So I'd say, let's recruit the Haléthans, the Ward of Frost, and one or two Laurelorn Great House - and then we start work on the Project in earnest. We don't need to have everybody in immediately, and between the Grey Lords, Thorek, the Light and the Jade Orders we already have more information on the Waystones than anyone has had in a very long time. Let's see where we can go from there.

 

[mathymancer]

So I'd say, let's recruit the Haléthans, the Ward of Frost, and one or two Laurelorn Great House - and then we start work on the Project in earnest. We don't need to have everybody in immediately, and between the Grey Lords, Thorek, the Light and the Jade Orders we already have more information on the Waystones than anyone has had in a very long time. Let's see where we can go from there.

Click to shrink...

I mostly agree, except I think we should recruit House Tindomiel before the Ward of Frost, simply because of the chance that Hekarti is Ranald's daughter and so we should bundle that recruitment action with the Haléthans recruitment for maximum possible use of the Father face of the coin. But sure, the turn after that we should get the Ward of Frost.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Almost every turn we use the Gambler, which can be trivially swapped out for the Father without "missing out". Recruiting potential daughters with the Gambler and then checking with the Father later is very silly. Just recruit them with the Father - it will be extremely obvious if the Father is having an effect.

The Ranaldian Hedgewise have a beef with the Ulricans and Kurtis seemed to think that recruiting them isn't a good idea. Also, how many daughters do you think there are? Most of the theories are going to end up being false, so the coin won't actually help for most of them. We should start by using the coin on those we actually think are likely to be daughters.

Click to shrink...

The Ranaldian Hedgewise are nevertheless Ranaldian, and Ranald will have our back. Kurtis indicated that it'd be harder to get them on board, not that it would be a bad thing.

It doesn't really matter how many Daughters there are, just how many viable candidates there are, until we find them both. If we have 3 candidates it would be better to do all 3 with the Father on one turn than to drag it out over multiple turns; it's not like we can afford to use the Gambler on every recruitment as it is.

 

[Rafin]

That's a good point. The most efficient way to use the Father is probably to recruit a whole bunch of different groups into the project using the Gambler, and then switch to the Father and see if their attitude radically changes compared to how they acted before.

Click to shrink...

Yes, exactly. That way we can maximise the Father's effect, and use the Gambler (or any other faces) to do other things. And the Gambler allows us to be sure that the most important groups (imo Hekarti house, Cadaeth's ward and Damsels) can be recruited more easily.

Click to shrink...

If we do it like that then the Father won't help us at all at mitigating upfront recruitment costs.

(or possibly the Deceiver if someone can come up with a good lie)

Click to shrink...

We don't need a specific lie. The Deceiver makes all kinds of random problems easier to solve, up to and including telling Alric that we're there on an unrelated matter.

I mostly agree, except I think we should recruit House Tindomiel before the Ward of Frost, simply because of the chance that Hekarti is Ranald's daughter and so we should bundle that recruitment action with the Haléthans recruitment for maximum possible use of the Father face of the coin. But sure, the turn after that we should get the Ward of Frost.

Click to shrink...

Wouldn't it make more sense the other way around? Use the Coin on Alric and recruit the Ward of Frost, then next turn use the Father and recruit the Hekartians and Halethans. That way we can also do an investigate/ingratiate action with the Hekartians and at least one of the Hoethians this turn before recruiting either.

 

[Codex]

The Ranaldian Hedgewise are nevertheless Ranaldian, and Ranald will have our back. Kurtis indicated that it'd be harder to get them on board, not that it would be a bad thing.

Click to shrink...

A reminder that even if we assume Kurtis knows Mathilde is a Ranaldian, which he might because she's not all that subtle about it tbh, he has no way of knowing how close she is to Ranald.

I'm not saying it'll be a breeze to bring the Middenlander Hedgewise along, they've had a long history of being hunted down and exterminated by the Cult of Ulric during the Time of Three Emperors so it's perfectly valid for them to hold a grudge. I'm just saying that there's no reason for us to believe that Kurtis knows how much Ranald truly has our back.

 

[Jreengus]

We don't need a specific lie. The Deceiver makes all kinds of random problems easier to solve, up to and including telling Alric that we're there on an unrelated matter.

Click to shrink...

As I understand it to use deceiver we have to put the lie into the plan vote since it requires a prepared lie. So we would have to come up with the unrelated matter we are using to justify our presence which is what I meant by a good lie.

 

[K von Carstein]

Recruiting potential daughters with the Gambler and then checking with the Father later is very silly. Just recruit them with the Father - it will be extremely obvious if the Father is having an effect.

Click to shrink...

And if we missed the mark and the people we're trying to recruit don't serve a Daughter, the Coin would have been useless that turn. That would be even sillier.

A better use of the Father would be to investigate one of those groups we suspect, then if it's proven they serve a daughter we can try recruiting them without the Coin, because they will presumably still trust us (just like the Dwarfs of Karak Vlag still think we're their saviour.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I mostly agree, except I think we should recruit House Tindomiel before the Ward of Frost, simply because of the chance that Hekarti is Ranald's daughter and so we should bundle that recruitment action with the Haléthans recruitment for maximum possible use of the Father face of the coin. But sure, the turn after that we should get the Ward of Frost.

Click to shrink...

Unless Ranald is lorc Hekarti very unlikely to be one of his kids, and even if he is Lorc it's a long shot.

She is as old as him, or even older.