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but likely to escalate Marienburg's sabotage.
They are at the limit of how far they can escalate. Any more and it will be war wheter they like it or not.

Edit: Especially since this would probably be an overland trade route and Marienburg has little leverage there to do anything covertly.
Edit2: On the other hand possiblity of war is a dangerious thing since that might actually shut down the project with a general call to arms.
 
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Regarding house Miriel specifically, again, they are not even candidates for recruitment to the project. But more generally, there are two assumptions here that I disagree with: that we can "put their fears to rest" at all, and that it is a worthwhile use of our time.
We have no idea what is each isolationist house's problem. You seem to think that Miriel's isolationism is just a result of misunderstanding the situation in the empire, and that it can be solved with a short conversation. I don't think so, but I'm not an expert on the lore so who knows. But there is no reason to assume that this would be the case for other houses. House Ecthelion is prejudiced against humanity in general, and I doubt anything we can do will change that. Other houses may fall anywhere between those two extremes. And why would going to all this trouble be worth it? Say we spend an action reaching out to an isolationist house, and find out that their concerns are something that we can address, but only with a few actions. Why would that be better than reaching out to a house already inclined to work with us?
I really don't get this desire to work with people who have stated they want nothing to do with you or your nation. I'm not saying they are bad people, I'm sure they have reasons that make sense to them, but the choice between someone who wants to work with you and someone who doesn't seems really obvious to me.
 
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Ulthuan has a strong trading presence in Marienburg and they have a presence in Altdorf, Nuln and even Middenheim, but their Imperial presence is not as significant as their Marienburg presence. The nature of the Empire's relationship with Marienburg also means that the Empire is not in a favorable position in terms of trading contracts, Marienburg has them beat and they absolutely love extorting the Empire for all its worth, so Ulthuani goods most likely do exist but I imagine they're prohibitively expensive.

If they really want, Laurelorn could establish an effective monopoly on Elven goods by selling cheaper products to the Empire with similar (maybe lower, we don't know their skill level) quality to Ulthuani products, which would theoretically reduce Marienburg's dominance on Elven goods, further antagonising them. Benefit for the Empire and Laurelorn, but likely to escalate Marienburg's sabotage.

I'm pretty sure the Emperor is planning to conquer Marianburg anyway. I do not think their meddling will be a long term concern.
 
Regarding house Miriel specifically, again, they are not even candidates for recruitment to the project. But more generally, there are two assumptions here that I disagree with: that we can "put their fears to rest" at all, and that it is a worthwhile use of our time.
We have no idea what is each isolationist house's problem. You seem to think that Miriel's isolationism is just a result of misunderstanding the situation in the empire, and that it can be solved with a short conversation. I don't think so, but I'm not an expert on the lore so who knows. But there is no reason to assume that this would be the case for other houses. House Ecthelion is prejudiced against humanity in general, and I doubt anything we can do will change that. Other houses may fall anywhere between those two extremes. And why would going to all this trouble be worth it? Say we spend an action reaching out to an isolationist house, and find out that their concerns are something that we can address, but only with a few actions. Why would that be better than reaching out to a house already inclined to work with us?
I really don't get this desire to work with people who have stated they want nothing to do with you or your nation. I'm not saying they are bad people, I'm sure they have reasons that make sense to them, but the choice between someone who wants to work with you and someone who doesn't seems really obvious to me.
You don't think that the House with ties to the Cult of Vaul is relevant to the production of major enchanted artefacts?

I do think that explicitly laying to rest their driving motivation for opposing ties to the Empire would remove their motivation to oppose working with us, yes. I daresay we could do better than a single conversation over the course of six months, too.

As for the other Houses, it depends entirely on what the reasons for their isolationism is. Sometimes they'll just be jerks! But sometimes they'll have legitimate concerns and not only are they not jerks for having them, but sometimes we'll be able to address them.

As for why we should bother there's two main reasons. The first is that in several cases they have ties to Cults that probably have Waystone knowledge, that no pro-Project House has. We can't get that lore without reaching out.

The second is that the Waystone Project, as things currently stand, survives by a single House's vote for half of the year, and no votes at all for the other half. Getting some of those houses onside may well be the only thing keeping the Project alive, should any of the other Houses find any reason at all to change their minds - which is entirely possible to happen, now that they're interacting with the Empire more.
 
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Ulthuan has a strong trading presence in Marienburg and they have a presence in Altdorf, Nuln and even Middenheim, but their Imperial presence is not as significant as their Marienburg presence. The nature of the Empire's relationship with Marienburg also means that the Empire is not in a favorable position in terms of trading contracts, Marienburg has them beat and they absolutely love extorting the Empire for all its worth, so Ulthuani goods most likely do exist but I imagine they're prohibitively expensive.

If they really want, Laurelorn could establish an effective monopoly on Elven goods by selling cheaper products to the Empire with similar (maybe lower, we don't know their skill level) quality to Ulthuani products, which would theoretically reduce Marienburg's dominance on Elven goods, further antagonising them. Benefit for the Empire and Laurelorn, but likely to escalate Marienburg's sabotage.

You'd probably know far better than I do, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Finubar's entire trading policy boiled down to buying goods from human realms in order to enrich them, so that they have more cash to throw around to build armies and fight greenskins and chaos incursions, etc. This policy has proven unpopular at court because the other Elves see him as throwing away gold for little benefit—why import shoddy human goods when there are perfectly good elven products you can buy here?

If my memory is correct, that means there's probably a lot of Ulthani gold circulating the human realms, but little in the way of actual elven goods—which is potentially a market Laurelorn could capitalise on, especially when they have a shortage of raw materials which they could import from the Empire or even the Karaz Ankor.

Laurelorn craftworks flowing south, dwarven ore flowing north, all passing through Altdorf. It's kinda terrifying to think about.
 
I'm pretty sure the Emperor is planning to conquer Marianburg anyway. I do not think their meddling will be a long term concern.
I think that plan is only slightly more immediate than my plan to win the lottery.
Sure if he ever gets a realistic change, he will, but as long as Marienburd has Ulthuani "backing(ish?)" on their side, Empire is not very likely to try, even less so once the canal is done and MArienburg is no longer the only sea route.
 
Yes, and what do we have to show for it? No one is suggesting we recruit house Miriel, nor was anyone suggesting it before we took that action. It gave us some idea as to why they are isolationist, which is nice as far as worldbuildling goes, but not very useful to the project.
Knowing why people act as they do tends to be important in politics, and make no mistake, this is as much a political project as it is a magical one. Learning the lay of the land opens up opportunities and mitigates potential mistakes.
 
I think that plan is only slightly more immediate than my plan to win the lottery.
Sure if he ever gets a realistic change, he will, but as long as Marienburd has Ulthuani "backing(ish?)" on their side, Empire is not very likely to try, even less so once the canal is done and MArienburg is no longer the only sea route.

I mean does it have that backing? They do not seem to have acted when the canal threatened to kill much of their economy along with the monopoly it enjoyed for so long. The only person who ever tested that 'protection' was Dieter and he did it at the same time when the Colleges otherwise known as the one major collaboration between the Empire and the High Elves was outlawed.

It is not like the elves have a emotional attachment to the city at the mouth of the Reik, the less important it is economically the less there is to protect.
 
No one knows right now because the Phoenix Court is not talking straight. If at any point they just get bored of defending one set of humans from the other set of humans they can just tell the Imperial diplomats 'sure, go right ahead and conquer them, just don't damage our stuff'.
Nobody knows, because it is in Ulthuani interest for nobody to know.
Wether or not Marienburg will have Ulthuani backing will depend on whatever is advantageous to Ulthuani government.
So until such a time Empire feels really safe that they can take on Marienburgs navy and pretty impressive defenses and not face any blowback from Ulthuan, sure, they will.
But that time is unlikely to come anytime soon.
 
I mean does it have that backing? They do not seem to have acted when the canal threatened to kill much of their economy along with the monopoly it enjoyed for so long. The only person who ever tested that 'protection' was Dieter and he did it at the same time when the Colleges otherwise known as the one major collaboration between the Empire and the High Elves was outlawed.

It is not like the elves have a emotional attachment to the city at the mouth of the Reik, the less important it is economically the less there is to protect.
Dieter let them go* and was ousted for it. The Emperor that attacked Marienburg was Wilhelm, his successor, Luitpold's grandfather.

*In exchange for an enormous bribe.
 
You don't think that the House with ties to the Cult of Vaul is relevant to the production of major enchanted artefacts?
No, I don't. Vaul is the god of smiths, and that house is a house of crafters. They make weapons and armor and such. I think the idea that they would have insight into Waystones because Waystones are enchanted artefacts is kinda like thinking a woodcarver would know how to build bridges, because bridges and wooden statues are both man made objects. They also didn't make the list of 'most promising possible partners' that we got in our first turn in Laurelorn, so Mathilde doesn't seem to think so either.

As for why we should bother there's two main reasons. The first is that in several cases they have ties to Cults that probably have Waystone knowledge, that no pro-Project House has. We can't get that lore without reaching out.
I can't stress this enough - time is not an infinite resource. Yes, probably every single house could contribute something to the project that no other house can. But we are not going to recruit all of them. I would be shocked if we recruit more than three, maybe four, and I wouldn't be surprised if we only recruited two. So why would we value the secrets of people who don't want to work with us more than the secrets of people who do, unless we already had an indication that they had some unique and valuable insight that was more important than anything any pro-contact house has, which we don't?

The second is that the Waystone Project, as things currently stand, survives by a single House's vote for half of the year, and no votes at all for the other half. Getting some of those houses onside may well be the only thing keeping the Project alive, should any of the other Houses find any reason at all to change their minds - which is entirely possible to happen, now that they're interacting with the Empire more.
That, however, is a good point. We should, at some point, do some politicking to ensure that the project is safe. But it will be easier to do that with Eonir allies at our side, and again, the place to start is with houses that are inclined to work with the Empire and humanity. If you are worried about people changing their votes, consider how it would look for the houses that voted for contact with the empire, probably at considerable political cost, if they were ignored in favor of isolationists. The best way to preserve the votes we already have - which we must, for the project to survive - is to reward the goodwill already shown to us.

Knowing why people act as they do tends to be important in politics, and make no mistake, this is as much a political project as it is a magical one. Learning the lay of the land opens up opportunities and mitigates potential mistakes.
But why was this specific fact, about this specific house, more important than anything else? Why would learning why a house that has little bearing on the project be more important than learning about houses that are likely to be our partners? I mantain that the only reason this action was taken was that it was a WEB-MAT action, which is a perfectly fine reason by the way! I would've voted for it myself, because any WEB-MAT action that advances the project in any way is a good idea (and literally all three have won on the turn they were introduced, so I guess others agree). But the context in which this was mentioned was while discussing if we should reach out to isolationists, and that's generally going to cost our personal actions.
 
I can't stress this enough - time is not an infinite resource. Yes, probably every single house could contribute something to the project that no other house can. But we are not going to recruit all of them. I would be shocked if we recruit more than three, maybe four, and I wouldn't be surprised if we only recruited two. So why would we value the secrets of people who don't want to work with us more than the secrets of people who do, unless we already had an indication that they had some unique and valuable insight that was more important than anything any pro-contact house has, which we don't?
If we end up trying to go for the super-overachieving goal of being able to create Waystones, I think we'll end up scraping together every possible source of Waystone lore, no matter how obscure or obnoxious. Honestly though, we might end up doing so just to reach the already dramatically overachieving goal of repairing broken Waystones.
 
If we end up trying to go for the super-overachieving goal of being able to create Waystones, I think we'll end up scraping together every possible source of Waystone lore, no matter how obscure or obnoxious. Honestly though, we might end up doing so just to reach the already dramatically overachieving goal of repairing broken Waystones.
But we always can recruit the more obscure and less relevant sources later, after researching a bit more and beginning the project in true. On a meta level, I don't want to wait irl months before beginning to work on it.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you're advocating for, here. To be more concrete: in terms of personal actions in our next two turns, how many do you see spent on reaching out to Eonir factions? Of those, how many on isolationists? And when do you see the project starting? In two turns? Three? More?
 
I'm not sure I understand what you're advocating for, here. To be more concrete: in terms of personal actions in our next two turns, how many do you see spent on reaching out to Eonir factions? Of those, how many on isolationists? And when do you see the project starting? In two turns? Three? More?
In my fantasy dreamland where I decide everything? We try to recruit a friendly House this coming turn, and reach out to an unfriendly one. Next turn, we try to recruit the unfriendly one we reached out to, recruit another friendly one, recruit another faction that could be more elves but doesn't have to be, and start the Project. So, two turns.
 
How many actions is this? Recruting a friendly house this turn and reaching out to a friendly one, so that's...two actions. And then three recruitment actions, for five actions. That's all but one of our personal actions for the next two turns (though we do have an extra from overwork on one of those turns). And you're suggesting three recruitment actions without any contact before, just going straight to recruitment.

So, putting aside the obvious difficulty of pushing something like this through. Which houses? You mention two friendly houses, one unfriendly house, and one more faction that can be anything (Hedgewise, it's going to be the Hedgewise, I will die for this). Which friendly houses? Which unfriendly house? And why those houses in particular?
 
How many actions is this? Recruting a friendly house this turn and reaching out to a friendly one, so that's...two actions. And then three recruitment actions, for five actions. That's all but one of our personal actions for the next two turns (though we do have an extra from overwork on one of those turns). And you're suggesting three recruitment actions without any contact before, just going straight to recruitment.

So, putting aside the obvious difficulty of pushing something like this through. Which houses? You mention two friendly houses, one unfriendly house, and one more faction that can be anything (Hedgewise, it's going to be the Hedgewise, I will die for this). Which friendly houses? Which unfriendly house? And why those houses in particular?
Of the friendly Houses, I'd recruit the Ward of Frost as Cadeath's involvement makes it seem like it'd be an easy win, and probably Ellemakil for the same reason - getting easy Elven investment. Unfortunately the only pro-outreach House that's really on-point is Tindomiel, and apparently people want to test Hekarti for Ranaldian daughtership, so we should probably wait another turn on them so we can try and sweep through all of those candidates on a turn with the Father.

Of the unfriendly Houses suppose I'd reach out to and then recruit Thyriolan (from Saphery and has ties to Hoeth, isolationist but is worried about Waystones) because they seem convincible and both Hoeth and Saphery seem very likely to relevant.

As for the wild card, I think I'd actually pick the Cult of Verena as she's literally the patron goddess of safeguarding knowledge from being lost. They almost certainly have stuff on Waystones from various disparate sources, but the fragmented nature of such would actually be helpful in hinting who else might have Waystones knowledge, e.g. if one mention is from a sacred text of Rhya, then the Rhyans probably have secret Waystone knowledge, etc.

And then on turn 3 I'd go for a clean sweep of all the possible daughters of Ranald we can fit in. Hekarti (House Thyriolan), the Hedgewise, the Bretonnians, any others people have come up with.

EDIT: Although thinking about it, depending on the political stances of the Houses, inviting friendly not-so-relevant Houses could ostracize some of the more valuable but less friendly ones, if there are grudges we don't know about.
 
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Of the friendly Houses, I'd recruit the Ward of Frost as Cadeath's involvement makes it seem like it'd be an easy win, and probably Ellemakil for the same reason - getting easy Elven investment. Unfortunately the only pro-outreach House that's really on-point is Tindomiel, and apparently people want to test Hekarti for Ranaldian daughtership, so we should probably wait another turn on them so we can try and sweep through all of those candidates on a turn with the Father.

Of the unfriendly Houses suppose I'd reach out to and then recruit Thyriolan (from Saphery and has ties to Hoeth, isolationist but is worried about Waystones) because they seem convincible and both Hoeth and Saphery seem very likely to relevant.

As for the wild card, I think I'd actually pick the Cult of Verena as she's literally the patron goddess of safeguarding knowledge from being lost. They almost certainly have stuff on Waystones from various disparate sources, but the fragmented nature of such would actually be helpful in hinting who else might have Waystones knowledge, e.g. if one mention is from a sacred text of Rhya, then the Rhyans probably have secret Waystone knowledge, etc.

And then on turn 3 I'd go for a clean sweep of all the possible daughters of Ranald we can fit in. Hekarti (House Thyriolan), the Hedgewise, the Bretonnians, any others people have come up with.

EDIT: Although thinking about it, depending on the political stances of the Houses, inviting friendly not-so-relevant Houses could ostracize some of the more valuable but less friendly ones, if there are grudges we don't know about.
So, lots of points of agreement: Thyriolan is the most reasonable isolationist to approach, though I do think it's important to do this after the friendlier ones, if we're going to do it at all.
And Tindomiel and the Ward of Frost I agree on, and I would also like to point out that the Ward of Frost isn't just an easy win - they have knowledge of the waytrees which is probably hard to get from other sources.

Ellemakil might be an easy win, in the sense we'll have an easy time recruiting them, but...why? I'm sure they are nice folk, and I'm probably going to try and spend a social action on seeing how the whole Eonir Ulricans thing is going, but what do they have to offer to the project that makes this a reasonable use of an action?

And the Cult of Verena...I mean, maybe? But when Mathilde is laying out the various possible contributors to the project when she's recruiting Max and Johann it doesn't even come up. We have more than enough recruitment options already before we reach the point of getting creative and thinking of additional ones.

My plan is to do Thyriolan and Hedgewise next turn with the face of the father, and also try and kind of check out the lady through a library action getting us Bretonnian books. Testing two-three theories at once is probably the best we can reasonably hope for, and honestly none of the other theories come close to being as reasonable as those three in my opinions (though of course the Haletha theory is the correct one I mean come on people). There is no particular reason why we should use the coin the turn after the next one rather than this coming turn, and I really do worry that if we wait on this it will end up never happening.
 
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mhm, my main push for who i'd want to recruit go as follows.

The ward people who showed this opportunity to us. The one with mysterious beings with them, the lady we met at the Ulrican temple because hey, they introduced us this opportunity so better reward them back with first dibs as elves in the project. Unsure about what the mysterious beings they were reffering to as unless it's the Grey lords, probably ents or those lizard things that hide in the woods?

Getting the Hedgewise of Nordland as the hedgewise have been noted for their wierd magic involving waystones and unlike the other hedgemages like the 'wise ones' of Ostermark or those in Ostland they don't have the same throw male magic users under the bus like the ice witches from what Codex gathered so yes.
Hedgefolk have many splinters based on their province, so I'll list them one by one. The commonalities between them seems to be that all of them are dedicated to one god or another, typically Ranald or Haletha I believe, but they're not restricted to that as some worship Verena. The only province that hasn't had any Hedgefolk mentioned is Stirland.

Ostland: Reside in the Forest of Shadows, worship their protector goddess Haletha. Fairly insular but has good relations with Ungol Hag Witches from Kislev, which results in them sheltering Hag Witches during a crackdown and the Hag Witches doing the same to the Hedgefolk. The Hag Witches dislike male mages because they believe they fall to the Ruinous Powers easier and will not assist male Hedgefolk. Thankfully for the Ostlanders, they believe the same, so this isn't much of an issue. They are currently dying out as a result of an encounter with a Necromancer in DL and their subsequent refusal to accept help from the other Hedgefolk.
Ostermark: Known as "Wise Ones", which is described in the book as those who believe that they were granted the knowledge of the Hedge by Verena. Have the same deal with Hag Witches that Ostlanders have as well as female dominance of the trade for the same reasons. As mentioned above, they were infiltrated by Sigmarites so they're probably quite cautious.

I'm not throwing out our Plato Max who's noted of being able to translate our munbo jumbo into actual mage friendly knowledge and causing tension in the group for the male members if they decide to be unkind in who they send regarding their views of male magic users so ugh, ya no for me.

At the very least after we get the waystone project started and make clear fuck of and deal with our male mages at the very least.

The Nordland peeps are also under threat of increasing sigmarite presence in Nordland and Alagard giving us the thumbs up for taking... a long time to inspect their suitability to the colleges makes em prime bait for recruiting amongst the hedgewise i've heard of and in terms of what we can perhaps offer.

Most defenitly if we find one of the children of Ranald and Shallya is a cult that has waystone knowledge as well but that's a maybe so book buying spree go BRRRRR.

Aside from that, the magic House Thyriolan if we can figure out the deal with their isolationist thinking and if it's worth taking them into the group.

Maybe the magic god house Hekarti, depends on the action we take with them.

would prefer at the very least 2 elven houses into the project because elvish presencein the project.

As for Cults, One would be the cult of Verena for their knowledge but our bargaining chips for them is... maybe dwarven assistance in constructing them an uber gamer library meant to last the end times? most definitely something involving our library as was showcased with the light order. Just a question of if it is worth the knowledge they store in their vaults. Dwarf favour trading is a thing in the colleges so maybe, at the very least we can finally spend that boon on something cool and i wouldn't say no to getting to see some of what the cult of Verena has to offer at the very least, even if it a small portion of their books. Imagining an impenetrable library for the Cult of Verena built by the dwarves using our boon that could last a skaven occupation for a hundred to a thousand years would be something, and in the empire at that.
Dwarven Boons:
Karaz-a-Karak (Moderate) / Metalsmiths Guild (Major): You rescued a significant amount of the Karaz-a-Karak Metalsmiths Guild, including their leader, from a sunken monitor. Can be used as either a Moderate-level boon from the Karak as a whole, or a Major from the Guild specifically.
Karak Vlag (Transcendent): They know irrefutably that you risked your soul to tear theirs from the grasp of Hell.

aside from that this is preety much a gamble and i'm preety meh on it but maybe one of the more ancient cults with druidic roots like the cult of Rhya and... I think Tal but that's a gamble.

Mainly pushing for the hedgewise of Nordland, the Frost Ward, magic House Thyindel if we can figure out their isolationist deal and were alright with it, definitely if we find a child of Ranalds cult has waystone knowledge, and maybe Verena.
 
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On a meta level I would prefer not to draw out the process of recruitment much longer, because I'd like to actually do some damn Waystones work, and just doing recruitment pitch after recruitment pitch for turns more just seems like an incredible drag.

My personal preference would be something like "do some research into potential Eonir factions this coming turn & check out a Waystone ourself, then T38 when overwork is available do a last round of recruitment and get started." We can bring in more people once we start getting results and once we have hit bottlenecks that other people might be able to help us with, but I don't want to take preparatory actions without end; at least with AV we knew how many preparatory actions we'd need before we'd maxed it out, but on this project it can just keep going and going and going.
 
So, lots of points of agreement: Thyriolan is the most reasonable isolationist to approach, though I do think it's important to do this after the friendlier ones, if we're going to do it at all.
And Tindomiel and the Ward of Frost I agree on, and I would also like to point out that the Ward of Frost isn't just an easy win - they have knowledge of the waytrees which is probably hard to get from other sources.

Ellemakil might be an easy win, in the sense we'll have an easy time recruiting them, but...why? I'm sure they are nice folk, and I'm probably going to try and spend a social action on seeing how the whole Eonir Ulricans thing is going, but what do they have to offer to the project that makes this a reasonable use of an action?

And the Cult of Verena...I mean, maybe? But when Mathilde is laying out the various possible contributors to the project when she's recruiting Max and Johann it doesn't even come up. We have more than enough recruitment options already before we reach the point of getting creative and thinking of additional ones.

My plan is to do Thyriolan and Hedgewise next turn with the face of the father, and also try and kind of check out the lady through a library action getting us Bretonnian books. Testing two-three theories at once is probably the best we can reasonably hope for, and honestly none of the other theories come close to being as reasonable as those three in my opinions (though of course the Haletha theory is the correct one I mean come on people). There is no particular reason why we should use the coin the turn after the next one rather than this coming turn, and I really do worry that if we wait on this it will end up never happening.
I don't feel strongly about the Ellemakil. They could certainly be swapped out.

The Cult of Verena I do actually feel quite strongly about. We are literally attempting to bring together as many scraps of Waystones knowledge preserved by different groups as possible, and preserving knowledge of any source is Verena's entire calling. I would say that they are hands-down the most likely Cult in the Empire to have preserved this knowledge. The fact that they are likely to have preserved knowledge not just relating to their own traditions but any that they've come across should be really valuable, too. I don't think that Mathilde quickly listing some options in conversation should be read into too deeply, here.
 
[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
In theory, the more members there currently are, the more complete this framework will be. Will unlock further investigations. Can be repeated if desired, but will not unlock anything new after the first time, it will just make a new framework incorporating any new recruits.

once we do it we won't unlock anything new from doing it again other than expanding the frameworks for new recruits
@Boney Can you please elaborate and maybe explain what the rationale behind this is? Like, if a few turns into actively working the project we were to stumble upon, say, Albionese casters that we manage to recruit, shouldn't their insight be able to update our paradigm and/or open up new research avenues that none of the previous members even thought about?
 
One thing I would prefer to do is have mathilde examine a waystone with mage-sight sometime either before or on the same turn we finally start. While I would be surprised if she gained any truly unique insights from it, it would likely make it much easier to actually follow the conversation when everyone who does know things starts talking. And it would likely greatly help keep up her facade of actually knowing what she's talking about if she has a basis for comparison.
 
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