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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
If you want to pursue this line of research, vote to pursue this line of research with [ ] Truth.
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Huh. Hmm. But then, what exactly does Faith get us?

I mean, I assumed that it did something because the "Never pursue this line of research" option seemed to be the "Prudence" option, so what does that mean for the Faith option/choice then?

... Actually, is that exactly the answer itself? 'Well, what does Faith get you, hmm?' It's something that you'll never know unless you pick it and commit to it? (But that you can probably guess a bit about it; that the rewards of Faith are the sorts of rewards that faith and piety to the gods give you.)

Meaning that I guess Faith is, appropriately, the path of faith?

We don't know, exactly, what is going to come of picking the "Faith" choice. It's not "full speed ahead on a different sort of research tree" like I thought at first. But I still think it's something. I just don't know what. ((Though maybe as one person put it, Ranald will send us on missions to start shit against the other Chaos Gods; false flags of Slaanesh against Tzeentch for example. Or Hashut versus the Horned Rat. Man that could be cool.))

But, I mean... I guess that's (at least one of the meanings of) faith I guess. And I still prefer Faith to Truth. (And of course prefer Faith to Prudence.)

If nothing else, I still would feel more comfortable charting a mysterious new path with Ranald close by our side, rather than trying to go it alone.

... And also yes, as others mentioned it, worrying parallels and reminders of Nagash and Nehekhara. Dissecting the Gods' miracles and working their stuff for our own. Even if we aren't going to be doing anything as heretical or rude as that, it still does feel... rude I guess.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I daresay there are practical advantages to understanding the nature of gods and their magic, we're just early enough in the tech tree not to know what they are.
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I'm sure there are. Are they guaranteed to be worthwhile to add another research path onto the stack we have? Are they guaranteed to matter? The Empire gods work with humanity as best they can, because they're in the same 'hold off the constant apocalypses' boat as the rest of the squishy mortals, and they probably have a solid enough understanding of their own nature and how it interacts with magic. If we don't trust them, then sure, it might be good to figure out a way to make it work ourselves, but is that necessary?
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The part I'm not quite clear on - and forgive me if my reading comprehension has failed me - is whether or not we're keeping this a secret even from Ranald in option Truth.

I can plainly see that Faith is giving up this line of research and cooperating with Him, but it's unclear to me if He's cool with Truth because it doesn't break His previous polite command or not.

For any other god I'd expect a resounding "no", but for the god of thieves and trcksters I'm unsure. I care not for the other gods, I'm just unwilling to betray Ranald.
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Truth involves keeping it secret from Ranald, yes. Faith is 'ask Ranald's opinion on the matter and probably get told no.' Prudence is 'Don't even ask, just burn everything.'
 
Murazor said:
So, just in case there is anyone who isn't familiar with the myth of Prometheus, the simplified version is that he is supposed to be the titan who stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans, against the wishes of Zeus. Zeus was Not Amused (TM).

Quoting Wikipedia...

The punishment of Prometheus as a consequence of the theft of fire and giving it to humans is a popular subject of both ancient and modern culture. Zeus, king of the Olympian gods, sentenced Prometheus to eternal torment for his transgression. Prometheus was bound to a rock, and an eagle—the emblem of Zeus—was sent to eat his liver (in ancient Greece, the liver was often thought to be the seat of human emotions). His liver would then grow back overnight, only to be eaten again the next day in an ongoing cycle. According to several major versions of the myth, most notably that of Hesiod, Prometheus was eventually freed by the hero Heracles.

Anyone who wants to vote Truth should carefully consider the benefits and drawbacks of possibly getting a Blessing of Major Liver Regeneration from an exceptionally pissed Ranald.
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If you actually think he would do that it's all the more reason to vote truth because Zeus is the bad guy in that story and deserves what he got.

Personally I do not think Ranald is an asshole of Zeus proportions, guess I just have faith in him like that.
 
Murazor said:
So, just in case there is anyone who isn't familiar with the myth of Prometheus, the simplified version is that he is supposed to be the titan who stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans, against the wishes of Zeus. Zeus was Not Amused (TM).

Quoting Wikipedia...

The punishment of Prometheus as a consequence of the theft of fire and giving it to humans is a popular subject of both ancient and modern culture. Zeus, king of the Olympian gods, sentenced Prometheus to eternal torment for his transgression. Prometheus was bound to a rock, and an eagle—the emblem of Zeus—was sent to eat his liver (in ancient Greece, the liver was often thought to be the seat of human emotions). His liver would then grow back overnight, only to be eaten again the next day in an ongoing cycle. According to several major versions of the myth, most notably that of Hesiod, Prometheus was eventually freed by the hero Heracles.

Anyone who wants to vote Truth should carefully consider the benefits and drawbacks of possibly getting a Blessing of Major Liver Regeneration from an exceptionally pissed Ranald.
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Yea, but you're also missing the other side of the story, Prometheus gave fire to mankind. So whilst he suffered personally he also you know uplifted all of mankind.

To also quote wikipedia,

Prometheus (/prəˈmiːθiəs/; Ancient Greek: Προμηθεύς, [promɛːtʰéu̯s], possibly meaning "forethought")[1]​ is a Titan god of fire.[2]​ Prometheus is best known for defying the gods by stealing fire from them and giving it to humanity in the form of technology, knowledge, and more generally, civilization. In some versions of the myth he is also credited with the creation of humanity from clay. Prometheus is known for his intelligence and for being a champion of humankind,[3​

Just saying and given the comparison doesn't that seem like it just might be worth the risk?
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Yea, but you're also missing the other side of the story, Prometheus gave fire to mankind. So whilst he suffered personally he also you know uplifted all of mankind.

To also quote wikipedia,

Prometheus (/prəˈmiːθiəs/; Ancient Greek: Προμηθεύς, [promɛːtʰéu̯s], possibly meaning "forethought")[1]​ is a Titan god of fire.[2]​ Prometheus is best known for defying the gods by stealing fire from them and giving it to humanity in the form of technology, knowledge, and more generally, civilization. In some versions of the myth he is also credited with the creation of humanity from clay. Prometheus is known for his intelligence and for being a champion of humankind,[3​

Just saying and given the comparison doesn't that seem like it just might be worth the risk?
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Right but this whole metaphor is a bit off-kilter in the start because the Greek Gods had no reason to give a shit about humanity. This whole idea seems to be based in the premise that the gods can't be trusted to know what they're doing, or be doing it in the best interest of fending off the dark.
 
DragonParadox said:
If you actually think he would do that it's all the more reason to vote truth because Zeus is the bad guy in that story and deserves what he got.

Personally I do not think Ranald is an asshole of Zeus proportions, guess I just have faith in him like that.
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Ranald would probably still take our coin and revoke his protection from us spiritually if he found out.

Also Ranald's always got our back. Why do people want to go behind his for personal gain? To me, Truth is looking like 30 silver pieces.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
If you allow me to metagame for a moment, there is really no way for prudence and faith to have the same outcomes.

Faith is asking our friend what to do after taking what basically amounts to a nude photograph of them.

If there is good to be done with this, like getting a chaos god imprint to allow Ranald to steal their shinies, he will tell us.
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Prudence is pretending that nothing happened. What we have done is far more significant than taking a nude photograph, it is probably closer to committing identity theft. Faith isn't asking for permission. It is telling Ranald what we have done and 'sacrificing' the means by which the theft was committed. This might result in punishment, albeit not as bad as would happen if another God caught us in the Truth option. It might result in a reward since we are offering up our ability to study God's but the reward won't be carry on studying Gods, or else that negates the actual offering.
 
I would rather not be so hubristic as to steal fire from the gods. That does not end well.

Prudence is probably an overreaction, but I submit that the fact the option is named such means even Mathilde admits it would be the prudent option.

Truth is a bridge far too far. Leave Pandora's Box alone.

We are a woman of faith and friendship with Ranald. We did this largely accidentally. Apologize, make a weak joke about stealing from the God Of Thieves, and move on.
 
Silver719 said:
Ranald would probably still take our coin and revoke his protection from us spiritually if he found out.

Also Ranald's always got our back. Why do people want to go behind his for personal gain? To me, Truth is looking like 30 silver pieces.
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So you think Ranald, the god who stole divinity by tricking Shaylla is a massive hypocrite who would revoke his blessings for accidentally stealing from him and never doing anything with the proceeds. Are you trying to convince us to change gods? :V
 
D.Rockstar said:
Wrong, Faith is telling Ranald and not researching, and maybe he will give us something maybe not...
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It doesn't matter. Faith isn't about asking for rewards. Faith in Warhammer is a bit different because there's concrete effects of the Gods that are visibly to everyone, which makes everyone believe in them, but that's not Faith or Piety in itself. If you do everything in expectation of rewards then are you truly faithful? Are you truly pious?

Mathilde's interactions with Ranald aren't entirely transactional. He has her back, and she's got his, but that's not the relationship of an Employer and Employee. They're friends. If your friend dropped their wallet and you picked it up, do you expect to be rewarded for returning it? No! That's not what friendship is! And it certainly isn't what Faith is about.

Looking at Faith as an option for "what does this give me" is missing the point of what Piety means.
 
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On the one hand, path to Goddess of Magic. On the other, lots of Ranald favor, because this is a massively useful trick that I have no doubt he could use. Choices, choices…

Seriously, I don't feel like either of these choices would be a loss. The big question is what we would gain. And I don't mind either, really.
 
Ericwinter said:
…Aaaand I'm back to Truth. Because apparently Mathilde has no fucking clue what Ranald would think. Either he thinks it's an awesome trick and Mathilde is clever for figuring it out, or he gets offended that she didn't tell him and technically included him in her studies.

Damn this just gets more and more complicated. I honestly think I might just throw my vote and skedaddle when the time comes. I can already see the merry go round of arguments that will be brought up.
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What do you think Ranald would think? Weve gotten glimpses of Ranalad. Hes been in this quest for years, surely we can come up with something?

D.Rockstar said:
Wrong, Faith is telling Ranald and not researching, and maybe he will give us something maybe not...
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Hes never been shy about handouts before.

Still the idea of blackmailing himw with this's amusing.

"Ten million dollars or these nudes go directly to your Shallya :V "
 
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D.Rockstar said:
Wrong, Faith is telling Ranald and not researching, and maybe he will give us something maybe not...
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Faith is explicitly telling Ranaldn, but the topic of researching is more nebulous. Though there's nothing saying no further progress can be made on the idea, just that we are not going to be looking into it by our own imperative. At least that's my interpretation if you look deeper than you should with the wording used, given it implicitly saying one thing, but that does not mean that 'one thing' does not allow for any further progression.
 
DragonParadox said:
So you think Ranald, the god who stole divinity by tricking Shaylla is a massive hypocrite who would revoke his blessings for accidentally stealing from him and never doing anything with the proceeds. Are you trying to convince us to change gods? :V
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Reread. They're saying that if Ranald found out we we purposefully doing this, he'd revoke blessings. Not for just this one-time accident.
 
Garlak said:
Huh. Hmm. But then, what exactly does Faith get us?

I mean, I assumed that it did something because the "Never pursue this line of research" option seemed to be the "Prudence" option, so what does that mean for the Faith option/choice then?

... Actually, is that exactly the answer itself? 'Well, what does Faith get you, hmm?' It's something that you'll never know unless you pick it and commit to it? (But that you can probably guess a bit about it; that the rewards of Faith are the sorts of rewards that faith and piety to the gods give you.)

Meaning that I guess Faith is, appropriately, the path of faith?

We don't know, exactly, what is going to come of picking the "Faith" choice. It's not "full speed ahead on a different sort of research tree" like I thought at first. But I still think it's something. I just don't know what. ((Though maybe as one person put it, Ranald will send us on missions to start shit against the other Chaos Gods; false flags of Slaanesh against Tzeentch for example. Or Hashut versus the Horned Rat. Man that could be cool.))

But, I mean... I guess that's (at least one of the meanings of) faith I guess. And I still prefer Faith to Truth. (And of course prefer Faith to Prudence.)

If nothing else, I still would feel more comfortable charting a mysterious new path with Ranald close by our side, rather than trying to go it alone.

... And also yes, as others mentioned it, worrying parallels and reminders of Nagash and Nehekhara. Dissecting the Gods' miracles and working their stuff for our own. Even if we aren't going to be doing anything as heretical or rude as that, it still does feel... rude I guess.
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Yeah, I my read is much the same, in seeing that Faith isn't just Piety here.

It's putting your trust in someone else, and accepting their judgement on the matter, whatever that may be.

It's faith as the emotion, the way of approaching the world and the people in it, just as much as, if not more than, faith as Divinity.
 
Ericwinter said:
On the one hand, path to Goddess of Magic. On the other, lots of Ranald favor, because this is a massively useful trick that I have no doubt he could use. Choices, choices…

Seriously, I don't feel like either of these choices would be a loss. The big question is what we would gain. And I don't mind either, really.
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I do not think we would ever become a god. Even Nagash did not manage that and he did not give a damn how many people he killed to do it. Also he ate warpstone. At most I see this as a path to a new lore of magic using the secrets of the divine.

Valarauko said:
Reread. They're saying that if Ranald found out we we purposefully doing this, he'd revoke blessings. Not for just this one-time accident.
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Well we would not purposefully be doing it to him more than once which is the accident.
 
DragonParadox said:
So you think Ranald, the god who stole divinity by tricking Shaylla is a massive hypocrite who would revoke his blessings for accidentally stealing from him and never doing anything with the proceeds. Are you trying to convince us to change gods? :V
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I mean, in that story he was kinda an ass.

Point is, Ranald isn't going to reward us for stealing from him deliberately. An accident corrected immediately can be laughed off, but we have been given Specific and Very Clear warning not to continue Theurgy. There is no metric where picking Truth is anything but a betrayal of Ranald's trust. Even if Faith gets us nothing, I'd still rather choose that than Truth.
 
Snooping through Ranald's things might make him disappointed, but knowing that one his most faithful has pulled a heist on the entire pantheon would probably make up for it.
 
Sacrifice the crystal to Ranald in an act of dedication to Him.

I never really wanted to work around with divine like this.

EDIT: Upsie daisie.
 
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Silver719 said:
I mean, in that story he was kinda an ass.

Point is, Ranald isn't going to reward us for stealing from him deliberately. An accident corrected immediately can be laughed off, but we have been given Specific and Very Clear warning not to continue Theurgy. There is no metric where picking Truth is anything but a betrayal of Ranald's trust. Even if Faith gets us nothing, I'd still rather choose that than Truth.
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No, we were told not to look at him. We were never told not to take Ulric's fingerprints, to choose a god at random.
 
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