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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Garlak said:
I don't think I agree with what you are saying here at all.

I think Faith is just opening up another avenue of research or exploration or magic (or divine magic)!

I think it is a way to start doing research with Ranald's cooperation/approval/assistance/whatever on it, potentially.

Look at that. It says "sacrifice the crystal to Ranald." What do you think the effects of sacrificing it would be? I think the most obvious outcome would be "Well, if Ranald wasn't aware before, he is now." And then, he gets a choice of what to do. And he can either help out a bit, or... well, he can feed off the energy and not much else I guess. The latter would be a bit of an annoying thing to have happen, because we wouldn't so easily be able to see what the outcomes of that would be, but... Even in the case that he just got powered up by it, I still think there'd be something that could come of it; namely, the fact that we'd be doing the equivalent of recharging an Anvil of Doom for Ranald. Meaning that he'd probably be able to spend that energy on helping us out in return. So, it seems reasonable to assume that we might see improved Coin effects or the like perhaps. Or the equivalent of being able to have Ranald sometimes bend causality in your favor, like how he bent odds for Heidi, except lesser in scope.

But anyway, that's just assuming that sacrificing it to him just feeds him a bit of energy, and doesn't lead to any further Mystic-esque research.

I'm still of the opinion that "Faith" is a potential research tree.


This is why I said that I disagreed with what your posts said; because your posts are saying "Guys, this is an either/or situation; either we continue learning and prodding, or we don't." And the reason I disagree with that, is that I think that Faith has a path to poke and prod and do and act and etc, too.


And, given the option of having our Oldest Friend's blessing, versus going it alone as researching it all on our lonesome? I'd rather have Ranald as a co-conspirator.
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Ranald made his feelings about studying him personally rather clear.

Other gods...
 
If we choose Faith I don't think that we will continue the research. I think one of two things will happen, or possibly both:
1: Ranald will be displeased that we did this in the first place, albeit mollified because we are stopping and letting him know.
2. Ranald will appreciate the sacrifice, possibly rewarding us.

In neither case do I think that Ranald will go and say "Go and study the fingerprint of Ulric etc." The absolute furthest he might go is getting us to get Ulric's fingerprint etc. and then sacrificing it to Ranald, but even that is dubious.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes if we choose Truth, if we choose Faith we are never stealing another divine fingerprint. It could not be more clear that Faith is not Truth with more steps, it is cutting off the research chain, only unlike prudence in a way that gives us some kind of boon from Ranald for our act of submission.
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that's [] Prudence you're describing there, not Faith.

Edit:
[ ] Faith
Sacrifice the crystal to Ranald in an act of dedication to Him.
[ ] Prudence
Break the crystal, burn your notes, and never again allow the Vitae to touch the Divine.

Faith is letting this specific one go back to Ranald, Prudence is completely cutting this line of inquiry off.
 
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Asheram said:
that's [] Prudence you're describing there, not Faith.

Edit:
[ ] Faith
Sacrifice the crystal to Ranald in an act of dedication to Him.
[ ] Prudence
Break the crystal, burn your notes, and never again allow the Vitae to touch the Divine.

Faith is letting this specific one go back to Ranald, Prudence is completely cutting this line of inquiry off.
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Given BoneyMs response literally saying otherwise I don't agree, sacrificing the finger print is agreeing to the status quo and telling Ranald 'Hey look at what I just did' and hoping for headpats for pulling off a heist against him entirely by accident.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
If we choose Faith I don't think that we will continue the research. I think one of two things will happen, or possibly both:
1: Ranald will be displeased that we did this in the first place, albeit mollified because we are stopping and letting him know.
2. Ranald will appreciate the sacrifice, possibly rewarding us.

In neither case do I think that Ranald will go and say "Go and study the fingerprint of Ulric etc." The absolute furthest he might go is getting us to get Ulric's fingerprint etc. and then sacrificing it to Ranald, but even that is dubious.
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Yes and I'm perfectly fine with that. There are dozens of research fields that we can continue to pursue, and I have no interest in godhood or semi godhood. Leave that shit to Nagash, I just want to make the world a better place, preferably without angering humanity's gods.
 
Boney said:
Mathilde knows Ranald better than most, but knowing in advance how Ranald would feel about this specifically would require an incredibly intimate understanding of Him that Mathilde lacks, and perhaps no mortal has ever held. It's a question of trust and faith and identity and the nature of the divine with a whole bunch of unknown factors.
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…Aaaand I'm back to Truth. Because apparently Mathilde has no fucking clue what Ranald would think. Either he thinks it's an awesome trick and Mathilde is clever for figuring it out, or he gets offended that she didn't tell him and technically included him in her studies.

Damn this just gets more and more complicated. I honestly think I might just throw my vote and skedaddle when the time comes. I can already see the merry go round of arguments that will be brought up.
 
The part I'm not quite clear on - and forgive me if my reading comprehension has failed me - is whether or not we're keeping this a secret even from Ranald in option Truth.

I can plainly see that Faith is giving up this line of research and cooperating with Him, but it's unclear to me if He's cool with Truth because it doesn't break His previous polite command or not.

For any other god I'd expect a resounding "no", but for the god of thieves and trcksters I'm unsure. I care not for the other gods, I'm just unwilling to betray Ranald.
 
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I think there's just things we don't need to know. Not 'shouldn't', or 'can't', just... we don't need to, and it'd be kind of a dick move. Could it lead to information vital to revolutionizing the world and overthrowing the chaos gods? Maybe. I'm sure someone's suggested that about Tongs at some point. What it is, right now, is basically a method to resolve historical confusion over divine syncretism, and we just frankly have better things to be doing with our time. Besides, there seems to be this undertone of, like, Faith or Prudence being submission? Which it vaguely is? But why's that bad? The Empire gods obviously don't look down on the Empire, and Ranald especially is pretty chill.
 
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Then again looking at the word 'you' it might imply an imperative to research the topic at the behest of another Party, but that feels more like a stretch than anything else.
 
Asheram said:
that's [] Prudence you're describing there, not Faith.
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No. Both are cutting off the research chain. Faith risks Ranald's displeasure but offers the possibilty of reward from Ranald (and no the reward won't be go forth and study.) There is a vague possibility that we can make more such fingerprint sacrifices to Ranald, but we won't be researching the fingerprints.
Prudence is risking nothing, but gaining nothing. Ranald won't know what we did and will never know.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
So am I right in thinking if faith is chosen this line of research is over or is that asking to peer behind the screen to much?
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If you allow me to metagame for a moment, there is really no way for prudence and faith to have the same outcomes.

Faith is asking our friend what to do after taking what basically amounts to a nude photograph of them.

If there is good to be done with this, like getting a chaos god imprint to allow Ranald to steal their shinies, he will tell us.
 
azereath said:
Hey @Boney just want to say, that with this update you have given us everything we could of wanted and turned it into possibly one of the most difficult choices we have ever made, Thanks ;)
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Adding to this, I feel like crap because of nervousness and panic, which I suppose is a positive because stories are supposed to evoke emotion and positive ones aren't the only ones evoked by them.

Great update, unfortunately it's not doing much for my nerves.
 
Personally, as supremely tempted as I am by Truth, I think I'm going to have to go with Faith here.

If it weren't for Ranald's letter, I wouldn't chose this. But Ranald did ask of us not to study Him, and so the right path, in my eyes, is to respect his wishes, as best Mathilde understands them. I think Faith is the best way to say "Had you not asked it of me, I would proceed and think of it nothing more but you have asked it of me, and you are my friend, so I will deal with you on your own terms."

I think there is also a possibility that Faith will allow us a path forward with a sort of "teach me to use this as you would" deal but ultimately... that's a gamble. Everything depends upon the preferences of the gods themselves.

In the end, there's a choice here, between willing cooperation of the divine and the forceful theft of their secrets. That cooperation may never be given, and it will certainly be more limited, but I think that proof that Mathilde is committing to building lasting relationships with the gods is worth that risk.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
I think there's just things we don't need to know. Not 'shouldn't', or 'can't', just... we don't need to, and it'd be kind of a dick move. Could it lead to information vital to revolutionizing the world and overthrowing the chaos gods? Maybe. I'm sure someone's suggested that about Tongs at some point. What it is, right now, is basically a method to resolve historical confusion over divine syncretism, and we just frankly have better things to be doing with our time.
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I daresay there are practical advantages to understanding the nature of gods and their magic, we're just early enough in the tech tree not to know what they are.
 
I would, rather conclusively, rather choose Prudence than open up the rats nest that is Theurgy. Just not worth compromising Mathilde's principles for the sake of power.
 
Codex said:
Yes and I'm perfectly fine with that. There are dozens of research fields that we can continue to pursue, and I have no interest in godhood or semi godhood. Leave that shit to Nagash, I just want to make the world a better place, preferably without angering humanity's gods.
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To be clear my argument wasn't in favour of voting Truth (although I might vote it) it was addressing misinterpretations of Faith.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The part I'm not quite clear on - and forgive me if my reading comprehension has failed me - is whether or not we're keeping this a secret even from Ranald in option Truth.

I can plainly see that Faith is giving up this line of research and cooperating with Him, but it's unclear to me if He's cool with Truth because it doesn't break His previous polite command or not.

For any other god I'd expect a resounding "no", but for the god of thieves and trcksters I'm unsure. I care not for the other gods, I'm just unwilling to betray Ranald.
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Ranald doesnt yet know what we have managed to do. the pressence we felt during the update was not his attention, it was divine energy being made from the experiment. the truth option doesnt outright say we will not tell ranald but it seems to imply it
 
Boney said:
Mathilde knows Ranald better than most, but knowing in advance how Ranald would feel about this specifically would require an incredibly intimate understanding of Him that Mathilde lacks, and perhaps no mortal has ever held. It's a question of trust and faith and identity and the nature of the divine with a whole bunch of unknown factors.
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How would Ranald feel about X seems rather inadequate at the moment.

How would you feel if one of your best friends accidentally stole your identity/nuclear football codes using a security exploit that if abused in a certain way could set off super god world war?

Probably a lot of things. Fear, anger, happiness, curiosity, a desire to use this to your advantage...

What one does with that information is likely to be even more of a tangled a complicated ball of politics and opportunism.

We know Ranald was trying to improve his standing with other gods recently. This could be a serious blow to that.
 
Boney said:
A good example of how Gods typically feel about unauthorized duplication of intellectual property is Prometheus.
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So, just in case there is anyone who isn't familiar with the myth of Prometheus, the simplified version is that he is supposed to be the titan who stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans, against the wishes of Zeus. Zeus was Not Amused (TM).

Quoting Wikipedia...

The punishment of Prometheus as a consequence of the theft of fire and giving it to humans is a popular subject of both ancient and modern culture. Zeus, king of the Olympian gods, sentenced Prometheus to eternal torment for his transgression. Prometheus was bound to a rock, and an eagle—the emblem of Zeus—was sent to eat his liver (in ancient Greece, the liver was often thought to be the seat of human emotions). His liver would then grow back overnight, only to be eaten again the next day in an ongoing cycle. According to several major versions of the myth, most notably that of Hesiod, Prometheus was eventually freed by the hero Heracles.

Anyone who wants to vote Truth should carefully consider the benefits and drawbacks of possibly getting a Blessing of Major Liver Regeneration from an exceptionally pissed Ranald.
 
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