- Location
- Utrecht
That is quite likely.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
You seem to have a very monolithic view of Ulthuan's culture. He's an admiral of Cothique whose entire pre-8th career is based on amphibious shock landings on coastal settlements, and in 8th edition he responded to a Marienburg pirate raiding Ulthuan with... an amphibious shock landing on a coastal settlement. Why would it be more in character for him to suddenly whip out a private assassin? That might be a tool of choice for a particularly ruthless Eatainian politician, but that's a completely different sort of person to who Aislinn was already established as being. And his response doesn't even seem that particularly shocking compared to historical events, sailing into a port, sinking the ships at harbour, bombarding the city, and landing troops to seize valuables was a pretty common way for a thalassocracy to express displeasure.
Fair enough, I still think Warhammer fantasy could use more forms of shock and conflict between the 'Order' factions that are not just [Insert Battle Here]. It just makes the elves seem mundane in a way, just another attack on a port, at least the fog adds to the terror.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Warhammer is primarily a war game. Every battle is another game that players can have fun with.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Warhammer writers were fond of changing the spelling of non-English words, even when they knew what was correct, in pursuit of making their setting more fantasy-ish. Since you're reading Sold Down the River, you probably just recently saw the Dutch Stadhouder rendered as "Staddtholder". And of course the most famous example is Reich/Reik, which later got explained as the name of the river, making it marginally less silly.
Why Games Workshop ever believed this to be a good idea is one of the great mysteries of Warhammer canon. One can only assumed they were trying to draw a line between their imaginary cultures and real ones, but because they are so brazenly derivative, it just comes across as cringe if you actually speak the language.
Last edited:
Personally I assume someone back in the 80s did not know how to spell a name and when called out on it they quickly stuttered. 'Yeah I... I meant to do that, makes it seem more real'
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The problem lies inwhat happens when you actually try to pronounce it. I'm sorta fine with people changing the spelling if it still sounds right, but it doesn't. It sounds awful, like you're skipping syllables and vowels.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ok, so I have a question on something.
I know a lot of things about Duke Merovech. I've read the 6th Edition Bretonnia Army Book, Knights of the Grail, and Barony of the Damned. The story of Merovech is told in every one of these books and it's remained consistent. He doesn't get infected by the Red Pox, he helps defeat the Skaven in Quenlles alongside Athel Loren. He then held a celebration in Mousillon and invited the King of Bretonnia. The King is absolutely disgusted at the horrific display of heads on sticks and shit in the banquet hall, so Merovech flies into a rage and challenges the King to a duel. He murders the King, rips his throat out, pours out a chalice to collect the King's blood and drinks it.
Needless to say, the King's companions were absolutely outraged and slaughtered him, then the Duke of Lyonesse led a campaign to take over huge swathes of Northern Mousillon, which is currently known as "Old Mousillon".
The thing about every retelling of this story, is that what Merovech IS is never explained. I mean yeah he drank blood, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a Vampire. He could have been a Khornate, a Ghoul, or just a weirdo. In fact, his tomb is mentioned in Barony of the Damned, and it's said that he's a skeleton and his crypt is very hard to find. If he was a Vampire, I think Barony of the Damned would mention it. After all, why wouldn't he have come back?
But checking the wiki on Merovech, they explicitly say that he's a Blood Dragon. They cite Warhammer: Questing Knight, Grail Knight and Knights of the Realm all as different sources, but I don't know what those sources are. What are they?
I know a lot of things about Duke Merovech. I've read the 6th Edition Bretonnia Army Book, Knights of the Grail, and Barony of the Damned. The story of Merovech is told in every one of these books and it's remained consistent. He doesn't get infected by the Red Pox, he helps defeat the Skaven in Quenlles alongside Athel Loren. He then held a celebration in Mousillon and invited the King of Bretonnia. The King is absolutely disgusted at the horrific display of heads on sticks and shit in the banquet hall, so Merovech flies into a rage and challenges the King to a duel. He murders the King, rips his throat out, pours out a chalice to collect the King's blood and drinks it.
Needless to say, the King's companions were absolutely outraged and slaughtered him, then the Duke of Lyonesse led a campaign to take over huge swathes of Northern Mousillon, which is currently known as "Old Mousillon".
The thing about every retelling of this story, is that what Merovech IS is never explained. I mean yeah he drank blood, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a Vampire. He could have been a Khornate, a Ghoul, or just a weirdo. In fact, his tomb is mentioned in Barony of the Damned, and it's said that he's a skeleton and his crypt is very hard to find. If he was a Vampire, I think Barony of the Damned would mention it. After all, why wouldn't he have come back?
But checking the wiki on Merovech, they explicitly say that he's a Blood Dragon. They cite Warhammer: Questing Knight, Grail Knight and Knights of the Realm all as different sources, but I don't know what those sources are. What are they?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If I had to guess, I'd say that between Merovech killing the king and being struck down himself was when he became a Vampire - there are other versions of the story where the newly-crowned heir of the slain King leads a full campaign against Mousillon instead of it being immediate retribution. Perhaps he was affiliated with them and all of the above was him proving himself worthy of full membership, perhaps he knew of them and was actively trying to get their attention, perhaps he echoed their vibe by sheer coincidence.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The thing about Merovech is that the three books I read (6th Edition Bretonnia, Barony of the Damned, Knights of the Grail) all did their best to keep Merovech's status vague. They did the same thing with Maldred and Malfleur, never outright saying if they were vampires or not to give an air of intrigue and mystique, maybe so you as the GM could decide what they truly are and if you want to bring them back, leaving things open ended. But the wiki just pops that bubble of uncertainty because of a series of Black Library short stories, making it seem like he's a definitive Blood Dragon.
What makes me really think about them really wanting to create an air of mystery is the frankly bizarre way in which Maldred and Malfleur died. They locked the doors to their castle during a siege and had some sort of dance, by the time the King of Bretonnia broke in they were dead on the stairwell with no sign of the Red Pox on anyone in the Palace.
This is one of several reasons why the wiki should not be exclusively relied upon. If you start exploring edit histories, it becomes quickly evident that most pages on minor Bretonnian characters were made by only one person, and of the hundreds of edits on each page over the years, almost all of them were done by that same person. The wiki's account of Merovich is one person's personal opinion on how to reconcile the inconsistencies in the various sources, not some sort of fandom consensus.
I've got a feeling this comes from some IRL myth or legend or tale, I'm almost positive I've heard something similar to this before outside of a Warhammer context.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If anyone's curious about Merovech's status in 2E WFRP at least, this is what Pg 22 of Barony of the Damned says about his tomb:
"Many a Questing Knight has set out to find the tomb, but so far, none have succeeded, for they all assumed that it must still lie above the ground. In truth, it lies beneath the centre of a large swampy depression, filled with foul stagnant water. The many knights, servants, and warhorses entombed beside Merovech have rotted away to nothing; a few algae encrusted chunks of bone are all that remain. Merovech himself has fared slightly better, his eroded skeleton still sits enthroned at the centre of the huge stone tomb, grinning madly into the darkness. Inside the tomb is a dark reflection of a Bretonnian court, some of the stone reliefs depict Merovech battling the king or impaling criminals alive on spikes in his feasting hall. The duke's skeletal hand still holds the black iron goblet from which he drank the king's blood, and his mighty warhorse lies, its skeleton almost eaten away to nothing, at his feet. Unless someone connects the swampy crater with the lost tomb, Merovech is destined to lie undiscovered for many years to come."
In terms of what the books say about him? Every version of the story (from 6th Edition Bretonnia, Knights of the Grail and Barony of the Damned) says that he went mad, that he put criminals on spits, that he ripped out Bretonnia's Kings throat with his bare hands and drank his blood from a chalice, and at least one source says that "he fought like a Daemon". But that's it. No mentions of Vampirism.
Another note is that Barony of the Damned has a descendant of Merovech as one of the figures of Mousillon, he's one of the people supporting Mallobaude the Black Knight's bid for the throne of Bretonnia. His name is Bougars de Biaucaire. He is genuinely insane and cooks and eat people. You might wonder if he's a Vampire or a Ghoul or a Khornate or a whatever, but no, he's just a messed up dude.
"Many a Questing Knight has set out to find the tomb, but so far, none have succeeded, for they all assumed that it must still lie above the ground. In truth, it lies beneath the centre of a large swampy depression, filled with foul stagnant water. The many knights, servants, and warhorses entombed beside Merovech have rotted away to nothing; a few algae encrusted chunks of bone are all that remain. Merovech himself has fared slightly better, his eroded skeleton still sits enthroned at the centre of the huge stone tomb, grinning madly into the darkness. Inside the tomb is a dark reflection of a Bretonnian court, some of the stone reliefs depict Merovech battling the king or impaling criminals alive on spikes in his feasting hall. The duke's skeletal hand still holds the black iron goblet from which he drank the king's blood, and his mighty warhorse lies, its skeleton almost eaten away to nothing, at his feet. Unless someone connects the swampy crater with the lost tomb, Merovech is destined to lie undiscovered for many years to come."
In terms of what the books say about him? Every version of the story (from 6th Edition Bretonnia, Knights of the Grail and Barony of the Damned) says that he went mad, that he put criminals on spits, that he ripped out Bretonnia's Kings throat with his bare hands and drank his blood from a chalice, and at least one source says that "he fought like a Daemon". But that's it. No mentions of Vampirism.
Another note is that Barony of the Damned has a descendant of Merovech as one of the figures of Mousillon, he's one of the people supporting Mallobaude the Black Knight's bid for the throne of Bretonnia. His name is Bougars de Biaucaire. He is genuinely insane and cooks and eat people. You might wonder if he's a Vampire or a Ghoul or a Khornate or a whatever, but no, he's just a messed up dude.
- Location
- USA
Edgar Allen Poe's Masque of the Red Death?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A cursory inspection and comparison between Maldred's story and Masque of the Red Death reveals incredible similarities. I mean. Red Pox. Red Death.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Please stop double posting. You keep doing it but edit button is your friend. You should use it.
Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This, but literally the opposite. Masque ends with everyone in the locked-in palace getting Plague'd to death after a masquerade ball done to put the plague (thought to be contained outside of the walls) out of the minds of all the nobility goes exceedingly wrong. But yeah, Masque of the Red Death is a pretty clear inspiration for the Red Pox stuff.
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Look at when I posted the post before it. Now look at my Merovech post. Notice the time gap? One hour. I sorely wish to not double post, but editing my post means that people will 100% miss what I'm saying, especially when it's a wholly different topic. If a full hour passes and no one posts, then either I can wait however long for the next person to post, I can edit my post and everyone ignores whatever I say, or I double post. I hate doing it, but I try my best to limit it so it doesn't count as spam.
But of course it's Poe. Thanks for sourcing it, that would have bugged me for ages.
We do not have a finite supply of posts that we have to carefully ration. The two posts were made over an hour apart, and I would have missed the second post if it was edited in instead.
The Double posting rule is about spamming posts in quick succession.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Something that's a bit annoying about the process of reading through Sold Down the River is the amount of mental edits I have to make to the information I'm recieving. It's fairly easy to edit out the name of the King of Bretonnia and his portrayal in the book, and it's also easy to edit out the constant use of the word "Sea Elf". But then I see huge differences between modern lore and the book and have to make a bigger edit.
Sold Down the River says that Lustria was discovered during the 2400s IC, but current canon says that Losteriksson landed on Lustria and made Skeggi on 888 IC. Marco Columbo's first voyage arrived 1492 IC. That's... a gigantic difference. What baffles me is that the Treaty of Amity and Commerce as presented in Sold Down the River extensively mentions products of the New World, and the Treaty was made in 2150 IC, but if Lustria was only "discovered" in 2400 IC, then why the hell is the New World mentioned in the treaty. Was the Treaty updated after 2400 IC? If so, the text doesn't mention it. It implies that the New World stuff was on the very first version of the treaty. Is it talking about Naggaroth? I somehow doubt the High Elves were performing large scale extraction of resources from under the nose of the Dark Elves.
This is so confusing.
Sold Down the River says that Lustria was discovered during the 2400s IC, but current canon says that Losteriksson landed on Lustria and made Skeggi on 888 IC. Marco Columbo's first voyage arrived 1492 IC. That's... a gigantic difference. What baffles me is that the Treaty of Amity and Commerce as presented in Sold Down the River extensively mentions products of the New World, and the Treaty was made in 2150 IC, but if Lustria was only "discovered" in 2400 IC, then why the hell is the New World mentioned in the treaty. Was the Treaty updated after 2400 IC? If so, the text doesn't mention it. It implies that the New World stuff was on the very first version of the treaty. Is it talking about Naggaroth? I somehow doubt the High Elves were performing large scale extraction of resources from under the nose of the Dark Elves.
This is so confusing.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Having read Sold Down the River multiple times, I think what they were going for was that the Sea Elves told the
Though incidentally, there is High Elf territory in the New World that isn't in Lustria specifically. Arnhelm/heim sits around the equivalent of the New England region, where there's less influence from Naggaroth.
Honestly, I think the discovery of Lustria being pushed back a millenia in the later canon was pretty silly, and not only took away from some of the interesting dynamics between the Asur and the human factions, but went against the idea of renaissance-era type stuff only starting in the Old World fairly recently. But it's a small point.
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Slann and the Lizardmen in Sold Down the River's lore nothing like modern canon? And so traders could just extract resources without nearly as much risk. But in modern canon even having access to Lustria for a thousand years probably wouldn't match a single century of uncontested colonisation efforts considering the difference in competition.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Lizardmen were already pretty similar to their modern incarnations by that point even in WFRPG, but were framed as a lot more reclusive instead of being hyper-protective of the entire continent. If you went deep into the jungles they'd scoop your brains out, but they didn't really give a crap if you wanted to run a coffee plantation on the coastline or something. That was still kinda true even in later editions depending on the writer, but the overall worldbuilding backed away from there being a big colonial presence in Lustria, for whatever reason.
Though as I said in the edit to my last post, there's a region in the middle of the New World that isn't dominated by Lizardmen or Dark Elves, which might've been what they had the most in mind when talking about High Elves extracting resources from the continent. And which makes it a bit strange the colonial presence is so small if Old Worlder's have known about it for over a millennia, even in contemporary canon.
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Bleak Hold Fortress and Doom Glades are right next to the Colony to the north, so I doubt they have much of a hold over the area. Sure it's a great place for staging military operations and keeping an eye on Naggaroth, but I'm not sure if they'd have enough presence there for large scale resource extraction.
I think the reason there isn't an Old Worlder presence is there is that Arnheim is a defensive colony, and not one focused on trade and prosperity. Their focus seems to me to be keeping any eye of the Druchii and and stifle their navy, not colonise the continent. The Old Worlders have even less reason to keep an eye on the Dark Elves.
EDIT: Lexicanum says that in the 1700s (source is 4th Edition Dark Elves), Naggaroth's Shades found an underground passage that lead to Arnheim which they've used for constant raids and sieges, putting Arnheim under constant threat. It doesn't sound very nice at the moment.
Last edited: