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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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If you want to read more material on Marienburg, there were a bunch of articles published on the Black Industries website that have mostly gone down the memory hole, but are compiled here.

I think it was released in the 2E era, given references in there to 2E books like Tome of Corruption.

An interesting character in there, for example, is 'Lukas', an ex-runesmith who accidentally rediscovered daemon binding runes, suffered a couple of minor mutations so ran away from his hold, and makes and sells temporary minor runic actions disguised as holy relics. He also collects and sells conventional magic items and magical knowledge and resorts to questioning the unaligned daemon he accidentally bound, so he'd pretty damn radical.
 
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Alratan said:
If you want to read more material on Marienburg, there were a bunch of articles published on the Black Industries website that have mostly gone down the memory hole, but are compiled here.

I think it was released in the 2E era, given references in there to 2E books like Tome of Corruption.

An interesting character in there, for example, is 'Lukas', an ex-runesmith who accidentally rediscovered daemon binding runes, suffered a couple of minor mutations so ran away from his hold, and makes and sells temporary minor runic actions disguised as holy relics. He also collects and sells conventional magic items and magical knowledge and resorts to questioning the unaligned daemon he accidentally bound, so he'd pretty damn radical.
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I think that between the mutations and the daemons 'radical' might be a bit of an understatement, heretic would seem more accurate. Mind I would not say no to meeting someone like that IC in the quest, maybe he would even be able to help with apparitions.

Actually speaking of binding our own minor daemonic army, do you guys think it is worth waiting for elf books on apparitions before we try the action or do you think we should just bite the bullet with our next personal project action?
 
DragonParadox said:
Actually speaking of binding our own minor daemonic army, do you guys think it is worth waiting for elf books on apparitions before we try the action or do you think we should just bite the bullet with our next personal project action?
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I'd say that we'd want to get any Apparition books the elves have, yes, but if we're going to get the Ungol hags on board with the Waystone project we should wait for them as well.

I'd still say that I'd want to get the Gazul Lore to learn more about souls as well, but I know there's enormous paranoia about learning it.
 
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DragonParadox said:
do you guys think it is worth waiting for elf books on apparitions before we try the action or do you think we should just bite the bullet with our next personal project action?
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There is not point waiting for more books, Boney repeatedly said we need to take Apparation Binding option if we want to get better at it. No other option because it is bottlenecked by it at this point.

Elf books might give us further options later on but at the moment they are useless to us.

I want to do Apparation Binding and have been campaigning for it for some time now but Thread has no enthauism for it despite us giving whole Skaven loot for it.
 
Tasoli said:
There is not point waiting for more books, Boney repeatedly said we need to take Apparation Binding option if we want to get better at it. No other option because it is bottlenecked by it at this point.

Elf books might give us further options later on but at the moment they are useless to us.

I want to do Apparation Binding and have been campaigning for it for some time now but Thread has no enthauism for it despite us giving whole Skaven loot for it.
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How did that vote go anyways? Before I joined the thread, did seem like an odd choice to win at the time - and moreso given we never followed it up.
 
Pursuing Apparition binding at this point accomplishes two things:
  • It increases our Killiness Quotient, by giving us another tool in our box for the doing of murder (whether that be a Red Rider, a Handmaiden, or a Rotwyrm, which IIRC are the leading contenders)
  • It lets us raise our star in the Grey Order, by introducing a novel form of magic other Shadowmancers can use
The first point is not a strong argument because at the moment we are so incredibly killy that we don't even use all the tools we have available for killing (like the Dragonflask) and we don't really have strong reason to believe we are heading into many fights in the near-term future. If we want to increase our Killiness Quotient, my prioritized option for doing so is finishing Branarhune.

The second point is not a strong argument because we are already a Lady Magister, the Room of Serenity gives us plenty of CF income to cover what we need, and we are not currently angling for Algard's job. We've also got other ways to blow people's minds in our back pocket, at more advanced stages of development. If we want to gain in prestige, my prioritized option for doing so would be to codify Rite of Way, followed by "finishing researching the Teclisean applications of Aethyric Vitae and writing the book on it."

I definitely want to pursue apparition-binding at a future point because it is cool as hell, but there are other things to do and at the moment we are overwhelmingly spending our personal actions on project things because we can't get the serious work done via WEBMAT actions yet, so progressing any of our personal projects is going to be slow and contentious.
 
Codex said:
One of the problems here I feel is a lack of... I suppose "clarity of purpose"? Who here knows what our future trajectory looks like? What about the topic of how many people/organisations are we gonna recruit? The vote hasn't started yet, but assuming we recruit Ward of Frost, Jade Order and Light Order, what next? I'm going to assume people will want to recruit at least one magic house, which likely means House Tindomiel. But is everyone satisfied with one Magic House? How many houses are we recruiting? Are we just gonna get Tindomiel or are we gonna try to get the Hoeth houses too? What about the Vaul house? I want to know more about them, but assuming we can get them out of their isolationist bent, should we try to recruit them too? If we recruit the Ward of Frost, are we leaving out the remaining Wards? At what point do we stop? What are our limits?

This isn't even getting into other magical disciplines like Damsels, Hedgefolk and Ice Witches which some might want and some might not. I have an idea of what I personally want, but I don't know what the thread wants, and I can't judge that without a vote, but a vote to determine a general plan of action would cause all sorts of chaos because that kind of forward thinking isn't conducive to the ever changing nature of quests and the voterbase.

It doesn't help that some people might want to keep recruiting, and some people might want to just get on with the research. If we do get on with the research, then we recruit someone else, then we have to do the "get everyone on the same page" action again, which would discourage recruiting after the start of the research. This means anyone who wants to recruit will try to recruit as much as possible to prepare for the nebulous future full of undecided variables instead of adapting to the situation as it comes.
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There's two sets when it comes to recruitment. There's who we want to recruit before even starting in earnest and there's who we want to recruit eventually, using our already achieved successes as incentive.
Boney said:
resource. There is no 'only' or 'just' to having pilots plural permanently transferred to Mathilde's command.
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Could we get someone trained who isn't already a Wizard? Like, a dedicated Human pilot, maybe recruited from among the ranks of the Undumgi?
Boney said:
Investigating Talabecland can indirectly uncover information about what Alric's up to, but write-ins are a thing. If you really want to investigate Alric obliquely, you can just go [ ] investigate Alric obliquely, instead of trying to figure out the best fit for that out of the available options like you're wrestling a recalcitrant text parser that refuses to Get Ye Flask. But if outright told to investigate Alric, that doesn't mean the Hochlander is going to kick down Alric's door and try to give him a swirly.
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Personally, I am actually more interested in what the Talabeclanders nobles are doing and why they are getting help from Alric than what Alric is doing more generally
Boney said:
Tradition dictates that Dwarf women join their husband's Clan upon marriage, so if a Princess is likely to inherit the throne, she either isn't married or marries inside her own Clan.
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Does that mean that that random Expat Dwarf that was scheduled to inherit the throne of Karak Hirn if the Prince hadn't been un-disinherited was still a Clan member despite leaving? Or that the Royal Clan of Hirn is down to its last two true members?
 
My own preferred personal development action (when we find the time) is finishing Branarhune. Its something that builds on a skill we've been developing for the entire quest, based around a weapon that represents our time in K8Ps (and one that's kinda become our calling card/signature), and promises to actually be super useful to boot.

Its also something where we can actually see the end point.

Boney said:
Greatsword, Master (2*/4)
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Vitae and Apparitions are a bit open ended- we don't know where or when those research trees would end or even if they will. With Branarhune we both know precisely how long it will take to see returns and also that once its done its done. Personally that makes it a lot more compelling to just get it there.

Also cannon swords are cool and we should be as good at cannon swording as possible.
 
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Rafin said:
Could we get someone trained who isn't already a Wizard? Like, a dedicated Human pilot, maybe recruited from among the ranks of the Undumgi?
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Would the thread be comfortable placing Mathilde's life in the hands of someone whose only qualification would be having nothing better to do and would have no way of protecting themself against magical manipulation?

Rafin said:
Does that mean that that random Expat Dwarf that was scheduled to inherit the throne of Karak Hirn if the Prince hadn't been un-disinherited was still a Clan member despite leaving? Or that the Royal Clan of Hirn is down to its last two true members?
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Clanless, so can be reabsorbed into the Royal Clan where someone from another Clan couldn't. The throne staying inside the Clan isn't a rule, it's the preference of the Royal Clan.
 
Codex said:
I somehow missed this, but I have to say that this series of events completely and totally contradicts 2E Night's Dark Masters. Night's Dark Masters says that W'soran was a disciple of Nagash and a Liche Priest who hid his allegiance when Nagash was banished to Cripple Peak, and that he wormed his way into Lahmia's court while Neferata's dad was out ruling in Khemri. He whispered in her ears about the rites of magic that she so desperately wanted to study but couldn't because she was a woman, so the two of them conspired together to create an Elixir of Life. They make it and then become the first vampires.

The series of events you're describing is nothing like Night's Dark Masters. When was this novel written?
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In the books W'soran is more uh... a Nagash groupie originally. Not actually part of his group since he wasn't in Khemri, but was all on-board with 'overthrow the gods' etc. Then when Nagash came back and revealed his continued existence to the vampires, W'soran immediately joined up. The Elixir of Life in the books is Nagash's invention, and eventually Nagash diverges by replacing the need for life-force with raw warpstone, and Neferata diverges by a conflux of random esoteric bullshit (the sphinx venom and Arkhan's desperate experimentation) that mutated her, that she then reverse-engineered to create an Elixir of Vampirism she shared with those who became the progenitors of the bloodlines (which include one OC guy who gets killed before he can create any vamp underlings, and a Cathayan prince she gives it to to incite unrest in Cathay so she doesn't have to pay back a massive loan that would have given Cathay claim on Lahmia itself).
 
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dinomannitro6 said:
If we have a slot open for spell invention I would want to do codifying Rite of Way first.
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That's something I'd like to get done sooner rather than later as well.

Most of our side-projects can be done on the spot if there's an emergency we think they might be helpful for, but codifying Rite of Way needs to be done well ahead of any major military conflict, or other Grey Battle Wizards and Lord Magisters won't have spare time available to learn it.

Just one more step and we can declare that project finished.
 
So I'm going through Marienburg's history, and man does that city get sacked a lot. Like, as a record of all the times it got sacked:

632 IC Norscans raid and sack the city. A treaty between Westerland and Norsca is only signed in 765 IC.

1109 IC The Norscans raid and sack the city again. They have to leave two years later in 1111 IC due to the Black Plague.

1597 IC during the Time of Three Emperors the Duke of L'Anguille takes seized Marienburg and maintains control over it for five years, and he apparently blockaded the Empire for some reason? The Duke of Middenland charged in with his army to liberate Marienburg.

1850 IC Norsca raids Marienburg and sack it again.

2344 IC Otto Steinroth the Red Pirate of Marienburg, through luck, managed to lead a fleet into Ulthuan and sacked the city of Sardenath. This earned the ire of Sea Lord Aislinn, who could have easily destroyed the ships of Steinroth at sea, but he wanted to make an example out of him to the "upstart race of men". So he waited until he reached port at Marienburg.

Aislinn didn't explain to Marienburg what happened. He didn't tell them to bring Otto out so he could recieve punishment, and the book says that if he had said something, Marienburg would have helped him achieve recompense. That being said, he did nothing to explain himself, simply blockaded the city, covered it with mist, bombarded the port, disgorged soldiers into the city, and when law enforcement came to stop them they slaughtered their way to Otto. After killing him, and then killing every single pirate who put down their weapons and tried to escape, they took back all the stuff Otto plundered, returned to their ships with all the Elven Merchants that were already in the city (they couldn't stay after this debacle), and after setting sail, Aislinn decided that wasn't enough so he set the entirety of Marienburg's Merchant Fleet on fire. (Pg 31 High Elves 8th Edition Army Book)
 
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Sydonai said:
Is this in anything before 8th Edition, or was it yet another "must be more grimdark" addition?
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8th edition is actually not that super grimdark imo. There are certain parts that are, and like, the Dark Elves are pretty awful yeah, but it's better than some other GW content. The Aislinn part is by far the most vicious thing to happen in Finubar's era. Everything else is just the High Elves "being heroes" and fighting the forces of the Dark Elves and Chaos.

I should also mention that after this act, Aislinn's influence at court faded to almost nothing because the other High Elves thought he was way too ruthless. He lost so much influence that Finubar managed to get a solid hold on him, because he was the only one who believed his viciousness would be useful in the face of conflict in the future (just, maybe don't let him deal with humans ok?).
 
Boney said:
Is this Maatmeses or someone entirely new?
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New. I don't have the text with me to check the name, but he's more of a verminous freak than the corpulent hedonist Maatmeses was. In the books, when Nagash arises again Neferata and co send this guy to be their messenger to him, but Alcadizzar (who is at this point bro'ing around with the desert nomads around Lahmia as bandits because he can't prove that Neferata is evil) kills him and presents his corpse as proof of the monstrous evil in Lahmia to the other kings of Nehekhara, prompting their unification behind him. Alcadizzar is interesting, as he's sort of unique, because his mother came to Neferata's weird blood temple thing she set up to get people to offer sacrifices of their own blood, to pray for a child, and she does some weird blood-alchemy stuff to nurture Alcadizzar in the womb, and strengthen him as she is raising him. It. Uh. Gets really creepy with how obsessed with Alcadizzar Neferata is.
 
Codex said:
8th edition is actually not that super grimdark imo. There are certain parts that are, and like, the Dark Elves are pretty awful yeah, but it's better than some other GW content. The Aislinn part is by far the most vicious thing to happen in Finubar's era. Everything else is just the High Elves "being heroes" and fighting the forces of the Dark Elves and Chaos.

I should also mention that after this act, Aislinn's influence at court faded to almost nothing because the other High Elves thought he was way too ruthless. He lost so much influence that Finubar managed to get a solid hold on him, because he was the only one who believed his viciousness would be useful in the face of conflict in the future (just, maybe don't let him deal with humans ok?).
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Regardless that form of ruthlessness does not seem very high elf-y. That looks like something a dwarf would do, or hell a lizardman. It's like GW only has one sort of edge they can give a character, and that is random slaughter 'look at how brutal they are, hur hur'. Why not have it be an assassination, that seems more in keeping with a age old courtly culture? That way you could have them kill the guilty party and all his family for instance, or maybe all his family bar one who was driven mad by the tragedy.
 
DragonParadox said:
Regardless that form of ruthlessness does not seem very high elf-y. That looks like something a dwarf would do, or hell a lizardman. It's like GW only has one sort of edge they can give a character, and that is random slaughter 'look at how brutal they are, hur hur'. Why not have it be an assassination, that seems more in keeping with a age old courtly culture? That way you could have them kill the guilty party and all his family for instance, or maybe all his family bar one who was driven mad by the tragedy.
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Or maybe Aislinn is just like that. What is "high elf-y"? A reminder that the Dark Elves aren't physiologically different to High Elves. If a Dark Elf can do it, a High Elf can do it too. They just live in societies that highlight different aspects. Aislinn is a Cothiquan and a very blunt and direct person. He's not a courtly intrigue guy, and he seems to be motivated by rage and loathing. He also has undertones of racism, with him explicitly wanting to make an example of the humans who dared sack an Elven city by sacking a human city.

Sometimes people don't conform to the general thought of what their culture is "supposed to be".
 
Codex said:
Or maybe Aislinn is just like that. What is "high elf-y"? A reminder that the Dark Elves aren't physiologically different to High Elves. If a Dark Elf can do it, a High Elf can do it too. They just live in societies that highlight different aspects. Aislinn is a Cothiquan and a very blunt and direct person. He's not a courtly intrigue guy, and he seems to be motivated by rage and loathing. He also has undertones of racism, with him explicitly wanting to make an example of the humans who dared sack an Elven city by sacking a human city.

Sometimes people don't conform to the general thought of what their culture is "supposed to be".
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I was talking about their culture not their biology, not all distinctions have to be about that, the stereotypes of fantasy aside. Dark elves can do it because they are for the most part inbred teenagers drunk on Khorne. Being blunt by the standards of anyone who can be taken seriously at the court of the Phoenix king should still make you pretty damn subtle, that is the place with the centuries old intrigues.

Ultrackius said:
Is the recipe for vampire elixir known in the WF universe? Just asking out of curiosity
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It is, but only by those who made it which is to say Neferata and W'soran. The former would likely never use it again for fear of making new rivals and we do not even know if W'soran is still 'alive'. He might have been eaten by one of his pupils (or it might have been a case of 'just as planned').
 
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Ultrackius said:
Is the recipe for vampire elixir known in the WF universe? Just asking out of curiosity
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Nagash knows it. Arkhan might know it. Neferata and W'soran made it together but it was flawed and inflicted Nagash's Curse on them. They also couldn't replicate it ever again, which is why you only have so many Progenitors. The single Elixir Neferata and W'Soran produced fed Neferata, Vashanesh (Vlad), W'soran, Ushoran, Abhorash, Harahkte and Maatmeses. Walach and Luthor Harkon are second generation I think.
 
I actually went on a quick browse over some Vampire pages, and I came across something that killed my braincells in the wiki for the Red Duke:

"By the year 1449 IC, the Duke had become known as El Syf ash-Shml, for the Arabyans had named him in the crude dialect of their nomadic tribes, the "Northern Sword", often shorted simply to "El Syf", the sword."

I'm going to ignore the "crude dialect" thing and just assume its in-universe racism, but what I will not abide is the horrific butchering of the arabic pronunciation here. What the hell is "El Syf ash-Shml"???? The words themselves are fine, but if you wanted a proper phonetic pronunciation it's "Al Saif Al-Shamal".

It's not that hard. Did the author who make the book never speak to an Arabic person to check? I'd give him a consultation for free to prevent this atrocity from touching the earth.
 
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