Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
The word 'knight' has a whole bunch of different definitions attached to it. Originally, the words that preceded it just meant 'professional warrior' and then it became associated with the most dominant type of professional warrior, the heavily armoured person on horseback, which eventually became an official noble title - equivalent to the Bretonnian Knight. About the same time it also became associated with the Feudal system, where those professional warriors were granted land in exchange for their service and to pay for their equipment, but over time many 'knights' started to pay their dues in taxes rather than combat - equivalent to Mathilde's title of Knight. During the Crusades there arose various military orders empowered by the Catholic church instead of a monarch - sort of equivalent to the Empire's Knightly Orders associated with Cults. After this period, a variety of people founded chivalric orders of all sorts inspired by the earlier military orders, some noble, some religious, and some neither, and from this point on someone being a 'knight' doesn't really tell you anything about who they are or what they do. This is where the Empire's secular Knighty Orders come in.

The Holy Order of the Templars of Sigmar are a Holy Order empowered sort of by the Cult of Sigmar and sort of by the Emperor, so it is not technically incorrect for them to call themselves knights, but it probably would get them side-eyed by all the guys who actually do ride around on horses in heavy armour.



Originally, 'chamberlain' just meant a servant that tended to a noble in their bedchambers, but it quickly became noticed that this person ended up having a lot of influence over said noble, so people who wanted that influence started to want to be a chamberlain. So the title started being given as a sign of favour and trust, rather than just because the person knows how to make a bed properly. And of course these are important people that don't actually want to spend their time making beds, they just want to have the noble's ear, so they delegate the actual work to a servant and over time 'chamberlain' becomes completely divorced from the original meaning - it just means 'a person who the noble trusts'. From there it splits into a bunch of largely unrelated roles - a chamberlain might be the person that manages a noble's household, or it might be a person who collects rent in a specific area, or it could be a fancy title for any economical position, or an entirely honorary title that actually has no duties or privileges associated with it at all. The position of 'Chamberlain' in the Witch Hunters has probably been on a similar journey, where it was originally an assistant to the Lord Protector that was eventually made an official part of the chain of command.



That title means that the person has the authority to sanction people to act as Witch Hunters, basically like a sheriff forming a posse. So he'd have a separate title within the hierarchy of the Templars.
Woah. This is far more involved of an answer than I expected. Thanks for the clarifications Boney!

But man is that confusing. The evolution of titles and how they start to lose (and gain) meaning with time and trying to track down the roots and evolutions sounds like an absolute pain.
 
Last edited:
Johann van Hal is also described as a "Witch Hunter General", which isn't part of this hierarchy. The way I've come to reconcile it is that Johann is one of the 12 members of the Supreme Council. Would that be correct?
While obviously Boney's word holds for the quest, I believe in canon the position of Lord Protector got abolished, and the Witch Hunters split into districts, each commanded by a Witch Hunter General. This was because a Lord Protector got corrupted by Chaos and that was seen as undesirable, so the duties were split up so it's harder for Chaos to take over the order again.
 
Woah. This is far more involved of an answer than I expected. Thanks for the clarifications Boney!

But man is that confusing. The evolution of titles and how they start to lose meaning with time and trying to track down the roots and evolutions sounds like an absolute pain.

That's history for you. Seriously, about half of all fancy titles trace back to either soldier or servant if you research them. And knight doesn't even trace back to soldier - it comes from cniht, meaning servant. Thane? þeġn, soldier. Count? Comitem, servant. Baron? Baro, soldier. Earl? Eorl, soldier.
 
While obviously Boney's word holds for the quest, I believe in canon the position of Lord Protector got abolished, and the Witch Hunters split into districts, each commanded by a Witch Hunter General. This was because a Lord Protector got corrupted by Chaos and that was seen as undesirable, so the duties were split up so it's harder for Chaos to take over the order again.
Well, I can probably sidestep any details on this by simply leaving it be vague over whether Johann is in charge of "The Eastern Empire" (Ostermark, Talabecland and Stirland) or whether he's simply on assignment to clear out the areas surrounding Essen to ensure the canal project goes smoothly. Not that the omake has to be completely accurate to DL, but I prefer to have some compatibility with the thing I'm making a fan work on.
 
While obviously Boney's word holds for the quest, I believe in canon the position of Lord Protector got abolished, and the Witch Hunters split into districts, each commanded by a Witch Hunter General. This was because a Lord Protector got corrupted by Chaos and that was seen as undesirable, so the duties were split up so it's harder for Chaos to take over the order again.

Do we know when that happened? It could well be in the future from our perspective in quest.
 
It could be that it happened during the Storm of Chaos around 2522 IC, which would make sense. It's the best time for the Lord Protector to reveal his allegiance. A lot of material for WFRP was also made for after the Storm of Chaos period.
 
It could be that it happened during the Storm of Chaos around 2522 IC, which would make sense. It's the best time for the Lord Protector to reveal his allegiance. A lot of material for WFRP was also made for after the Storm of Chaos period.
According to the wiki (taking from Tome of Corruption) the position was dissolved shortly after Volkmar became Grand Theogonist, so probably hasn't happened yet in-quest.
 
It could be that it happened during the Storm of Chaos around 2522 IC, which would make sense. It's the best time for the Lord Protector to reveal his allegiance. A lot of material for WFRP was also made for after the Storm of Chaos period.
This is going purely off of memory, because I don't remember where I read it from, but it was a couple of years before the Storm of Chaos. The corrupted Lord Protector had also corrupted the Grandmaster of the Knights Panther, which is why they're now so fervent in rooting out Chaos in atonement, second only to the Witch Hunters who they often assist.
 
While obviously Boney's word holds for the quest, I believe in canon the position of Lord Protector got abolished, and the Witch Hunters split into districts, each commanded by a Witch Hunter General. This was because a Lord Protector got corrupted by Chaos and that was seen as undesirable, so the duties were split up so it's harder for Chaos to take over the order again.
Let me just take a moment to appreciate the sheer beauty of the understatement in use.
 
Last edited:
One interesting thing about the Witchhunters is that they're apparently an older institution than the Empire itself, being founded in -30 IC.
 
It's not that unrealistic, if "founded" is used rather loosely, the colleges could in theory trace their history back by millenia, if not for the whole "founded by Magnus" thing they rely on legitimacy.
 
The Witch Hunters claim that the "Order of the Silver Hammer" from which the modern Witch Hunters descend was founded in Ostland by Sigmar's companion Wolfgart Krieger and that Wulfenburg in Ostland is named after him. But the first time they were actually officially recognised was in 1682 by Grand Theogonist Siebold II (Source is Warhammer 8th Edition Empire Army Book pg 37). However, their legitimacy as a non-secretive institution that couldn't unilaterally act as judge, jury and executioner only occured 600 years later during Magnus the Pious' reign, when he restructured them into the Holy Order of the Templars of Sigmar.

Basically, the Witch Hunters like to make boastful claims about their history to boost their legitimacy. As expected.

EDIT: Also as a side note, Wulfenburg is clearly named such because it's built to a nearby river called "Wolf's Run". Maybe the Witch Hunters also claim the river was named after him.
 
Last edited:
Witchhunters Handbook. They trace their authority back to Sigmar telling one of his (named) companions to set up an organisation to hunt down users of black magic.

I'm sceptical that they have real continuity with any institution established back then, rather than simply claiming it.
Far as I'm aware, the actual Templars of Sigmar date back to during the Age of Three Emperors.

At least, the 2nd edition RP books say that it was GT Siebold II that founded them during that time.

Edit: Ninja'd.
 
Witchhunters Handbook. They trace their authority back to Sigmar telling one of his (named) companions to set up an organisation to hunt down users of black magic.

I'm sceptical that they have real continuity with any institution established back then, rather than simply claiming it.
Sounds plausible.
There's a major legitimacy points being able to point to the empires patron god as the person who created your organization.
So no matter how, flimsy, the connection, as long as the witch hunters can make it stick, they would.
 
Sounds plausible.
There's a major legitimacy points being able to point to the empires patron god as the person who created your organization.
So no matter how, flimsy, the connection, as long as the witch hunters can make it stick, they would.

Importantly, they claim to predate the Cult of Sigmar by a hundred years. If they ever want to asset an independent mandate to the Cult's leadership, they're in a pretty strong theological position to do so. Sigmar even founded the Witchhunters before he founded the Empire, they're arguably the senior institution even to that.
 
Witchhunters Handbook. They trace their authority back to Sigmar telling one of his (named) companions to set up an organisation to hunt down users of black magic.

I'm sceptical that they have real continuity with any institution established back then, rather than simply claiming it.
So basically like the Emperors inquisition except less super planet murder and rampant insanity.
 
Importantly, they claim to predate the Cult of Sigmar by a hundred years. If they ever want to asset an independent mandate to the Cult's leadership, they're in a pretty strong theological position to do so. Sigmar even founded the Witchhunters before he founded the Empire, they're arguably the senior institution even to that.
The main component on that is being able to make it stick.
Which i seriously doubt the Witch Hunters could.
It's one thing to make a claim in order to gain institutional legitimacy, and another to make a claim and try to use it as a cudgel against other, bigger, institutions.
Though the attempt could create a lot of trouble in the process.
 
It's not that unrealistic, if "founded" is used rather loosely, the colleges could in theory trace their history back by millenia, if not for the whole "founded by Magnus" thing they rely on legitimacy.

Although those connections themselves might well have gaps, like the modern druids, where the secular or religious authorities successfully destroyed a magical tradition and then a century or so later someone else claimed the name and used their reputation to intimidate enemies and attract recruits, even though there was no institutional or even informational continuity beyond the name itself between them. Over several thousand years it could even have happened multiple times (perhaps even once every couple of generations), with each set of refounders simply inventing 'ancient secrets' and their successors believing the faked history and knowledge. That's much more likely than secret conspiracies surviving through chains of Master to apprentice transmissions for millennia.

This applies to the Witchhunters as well as the College's precursors.

The main component on that is being able to make it stick.
Which i seriously doubt the Witch Hunters could.
It's one thing to make a claim in order to gain institutional legitimacy, and another to make a claim and try to use it as a cudgel against other, bigger, institutions.
Though the attempt could create a lot of trouble in the process.

It depends on what the context and what other political powers might find useful to support.

Along with the possibility that a strong historical myth might itself grant power in this setting if people believe it.
 
Last edited:
When Sigmar founded the Empire, all of the tribes had different methods of recording the date. Sigmar appointed someone to try to create a compromise calendar that would incorporate all of the different holy days and wouldn't piss off anyone too badly. Years later he got sick of waiting and just adopted the Dwarven one. To this day the Minister of Calendars still exists in some misbegotten corner of the Empire, still using that authority to make a nuisance of himself inspecting regional religious festivals and celebrations. People like power and authority and prestige and very rarely give any of it up without a fight, even if the reason they have that power and authority and prestige no longer applies.
 
Makes me wonder if we've got a Grand Pooh-Bah sneaking around, accumulating obscure titles in order to get enough political power for a council seat.
 
When Sigmar founded the Empire, all of the tribes had different methods of recording the date. Sigmar appointed someone to try to create a compromise calendar that would incorporate all of the different holy days and wouldn't piss off anyone too badly. Years later he got sick of waiting and just adopted the Dwarven one. To this day the Minister of Calendars still exists in some misbegotten corner of the Empire, still using that authority to make a nuisance of himself inspecting regional religious festivals and celebrations.
how'd he live that long? Vampirism didn't come to the empire until long after sigmar
 
Voting is open
Back
Top