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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Valmond said:
And you would not expect a centuries old Runelord to be exactly the kind of person who is going to be exceptional?
You are, i feel, doing dawi a disservice with this idea that they could not possible come up something as simple as "i do this, and in turn i do that" as a backroom dealing without meeting Mathilde and having some world changing revelation as a consequence.
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Runelords are exceptional in that they are Ruenlords, if anything I would consider that an argument against Thorek being skilled at intrigue against pervading culture and norms, simply because there are only so many hours in the day and there are so few things he would need underhanded methods to get at his level.
 
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Humbaba said:
Would they definitely still know about how to unseal any runic seals? My impression would be that undoing the Runic seals would require runesmith knowledge, and that Runesmiths don't exist outside the Karaz Ankor, with any runesmiths that did exist before they left the Karaz Ankor being unlikely to share lore. Though I suppose if it's passwords or a particular bloodline that wouldn't trigger Runesmith anti-sharing laws.
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There's not many more qualified to comment on the matter than Thorek, and Thorek seems to believe that it's worth pursuing.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The runesmiths are utterly disconnected from the people they serve, and they are becoming less relevant each year, except as the creators of antiques and relics.
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Interestingly, K8P is an exception. Runes, by way of Kragg and later Thorek, played a huge roll in the battles to take and keep the hold. They influenced the culture, though of umgi and unintentionally, so that's mostly unacknowledged. And they continue to be present, in the shape of a runic hellfire mountain, the great work of the Living Ancestor. And it was built in living memory of even the beardlings.

Which, incidentally, is why I think Thorek has no beef with Kragg (at least because of Dum, he might still be a liiiitle miffed about Superior Skill). Kragg went and fought. Kragg went and created. Kragg went and built. Unless Kragg actually spoke out against helping Dum but I don't think that happened.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
The Karaz Ankor needed all that... but Azul didn't. That's probably what influences Thorek to think that way about the Engineer's Guilds of the larger Karaz Ankor.
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Just picking up on this earlier point. Not only did Azul not need it, but at this point in the timeline they were kicking the shit so hard out if their local enemies that they'd run out, and had to go looking for more, while the rest of the Karaz Ankor were in serious decline.

Thorek has very good reasons for thinking that depending on good old reliable runesmithing rather than new-fangled engineering is the way for the dwarves to go.
 
In the long term, the status quo for the Runesmiths is a slow extinction and loss of knowledge, their place in society slowly being usurped by engineers - Thorek's frankly right about that. Now if he had authority over the Engineer's Guild as well, I'd be much more worried about them calcifying where they are, but they aren't going to stop on his say-so.

The matter of Karaz Ghumzul hits unfortunate notes of messing with the heritage of cultural minorities, but I feel the calculus is rather altered by the probability of that cultural landmark containing important military technologies while the wider race is in a war of extinction. It will make the Ghumzul-ers very unhappy, and we don't agree with the wider dwarven view of Sins Of The Fathers, but then is it right for them to benefit* from the works of their ancestors while eschewing the betrayal of those same ancestors?

Ultimately, the only thing that makes me hesitate on going all in is not wanting to disappoint Kragg. Maybe he'll forgive us for a Seviroscope?

*except not really, they've not been there for 3 millenia

[x] [ARM] Johann
[x] [THOREK] Both
 
BurnNote said:
Interestingly, K8P is an exception. Runes, by way of Kragg and later Thorek, played a huge roll in the battles to take and keep the hold. They influenced the culture, though of umgi and unintentionally, so that's mostly unacknowledged. And they continue to be present, in the shape of a runic hellfire mountain, the great work of the Living Ancestor. And it was built in living memory of even the beardlings.

Which, incidentally, is why I think Thorek has no beef with Kragg (at least because of Dum, he might still be a liiiitle miffed about Superior Skill). Kragg went and fought. Kragg went and created. Kragg went and built. Unless Kragg actually spoke out against helping Dum but I don't think that happened.
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I agree, I think the rivalry between Kragg and Thorek is very different from the beef Thorek has with the "yellowbeards". They seemed to work well enough together when they boiled the soil Birdmuncher was tunnelling through.

I don't doubt that they will butt heads over this, but I think there's also a lot of respect between them (or at least, as much respect as a pair of rival runelords can give each other).
 
@Boney, in Divided Loyalties, do elves have greater agility than humans as a result of age or as a result of their bodies? I'm not sure if an 18 year old elf (IIRC elves age like humans until adulthood) is more physically coordinated than a human of the same age or if elves only get that agile from decades of learning to move good.

(Was thinking what things Mathilde might pick up from her time with the Eonir. Concluded little to nothing since she's not living in Laurelorn, but the question of if she would get more graceful if she did immerse herself like she did in Eight Peaks has kept bugging me.)
 
Andres110 said:
@Boney, in Divided Loyalties, do elves have greater agility than humans as a result of age or as a result of their bodies? I'm not sure if an 18 year old elf (IIRC elves age like humans until adulthood) is more physically coordinated than a human of the same age or if elves only get that agile from decades of learning to move good.

(Was thinking what things Mathilde might pick up from her time with the Eonir. Concluded little to nothing since she's not living in Laurelorn, but the question of if she would get more graceful if she did immerse herself like she did in Eight Peaks has kept bugging me.)
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It's an open question whether it's a matter of practice, biology, cultural values, or some combination of the three. But if it is learnable through immersion, it probably wouldn't have as much of an effect on a person's coordination as learning to wield a weapon at a high level does, which Mathilde has already done.
 
[X] [ARM] Amputee
[X] [THOREK] Both

While im for doing both, I'm a bit disappointed in the thread for dismissing pressuring the expatriate Dwarves of Middenheim as the less costly of the two actions.

pissing off the regional superpower by fucking with one of its power groups before we even get to negotiating with them is going to have negative knock-on effects.
 
Codex said:
Alcadizaar: The Conqueror. Kicks Nagash's ass, gets captured then saved by Skaven who gives him the Fellblade that he uses to kill Nagash. Dies from warpstone poisoning and gets washed down a river with the Crown in his hand, body found by Kadon.
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This is... incomplete. Alcadizaar failed. He booted Nagash out of Nehekhara when he invaded but, when informed that he was prophesied to die permanently slaying Nagash, he balked (incidentally, if he hadn't, he would have still fulfilled the Skaven prophecy about the Fellblade since he would have been going there knowing he was to die) and decided to rest on his laurels. That gave Nagash the time he needed to cook up the warpstone-disease that killed every living thing in Nehekhara except Alcadizaar. Even when he did gank Nagash, it was only temporary, not the permanent death that he was supposed to deliver.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
pissing off the regional superpower by fucking with one of its power groups before we even get to negotiating with them is going to have negative knock-on effects.
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I'm under the assumption (and i think it's not just me) that Mathilde will apply the pressure through the regional superpower, rather than against the regional superpower's will. Middenland is invested in the Eonir, and the Eonir want waystones.
I'm not saying Middenland will throw the imperial dwarfs under a bus for our project,

But we can help Middenheim, so they help us.

Middenheim dwarfs still respect Grudges.

Hell, i doubt there are absolutely no revanchists among the Imperial dwarfs that could be persuaded.
Or that there aren't dwarfs that are shamed by their ancestors' actions that want to atone.
Or that want to reconnect to Karaz Ankor, but can't due to the Low Prio Grudges.

Of course, it could go the other way, with Dwarfs that see themselves as the wronged party, and want recompense from KA...
 
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I would expect the physical prime of 20 years (if we're being very optimistic) puts a very hard cap on just how well humans can keep up with elves who can spend a century doing gymnastics and swordplay before they start being taken seriously as a person.
 
Shane_357 said:
This is... incomplete. Alcadizaar failed. He booted Nagash out of Nehekhara when he invaded but, when informed that he was prophesied to die permanently slaying Nagash, he balked (incidentally, if he hadn't, he would have still fulfilled the Skaven prophecy about the Fellblade since he would have been going there knowing he was to die) and decided to rest on his laurels. That gave Nagash the time he needed to cook up the warpstone-disease that killed every living thing in Nehekhara except Alcadizaar. Even when he did gank Nagash, it was only temporary, not the permanent death that he was supposed to deliver.
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If memory serves, that's only true in the novel.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
[X] [ARM] Amputee
[X] [THOREK] Both

While im for doing both, I'm a bit disappointed in the thread for dismissing pressuring the expatriate Dwarves of Middenheim as the less costly of the two actions.

pissing off the regional superpower by fucking with one of its power groups before we even get to negotiating with them is going to have negative knock-on effects.
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I mean, we're using Mathilde's judgement here:
Boney said:
You consider his words carefully. On one hand, an internal matter of the Empire. Relatively simple, but one that would require you to exert your influence upon some very touchy people, and could cause turbulence in Middenheim - but Middenheim is already out on a limb for the sake of their new allies, and it wouldn't be hard to nudge them further. You're sure the Colleges would feel it is a small price to pay for the cooperation of a Runelord, and it's a decision your rank allows you to make on their behalf. On the other hand, an internal matter of the Karaz Ankor, much more complicated and potentially ugly, but one that would unfold far from you and in a way that would leave your hands clean. It's difficult to weigh the two matters against each other, and against the amount of aid a Runelord of Thorek's calibre could offer.
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She's the one who calls the Runelord thing "much more complicated and potentially ugly". Her analysis of Middenheim's disruption is very tempered and she even goes so far as says that the colleges would consider it a small price.

I mean, I don't think that there will be no consequences or issue from doing it. But we are using Mathilde's judgement here, and her judgement is that the Runelord thing is more costly.
 
[X] [ARM] Johann
[x] [THOREK] Karaz Ghumzul

Of the Karaz Ghumzul, I am convinced that Mathilde could be a better solution to the issues than Dwarven Internal politics, and one that's reasonably fair anyways as an alternative to the Status Quo of "and then they never got around to it."

Of the matter of whether to facilitate Thorek's hand in the Guild Schism, I am far less convinced of its wisdom. Were it just a matter of reporting honestly, I would be happy to write things up and let fly what may. Truth has value, in the end. Likewise were it liable to ease tensions instead of potentially emboldening a schism. Angling towards a certain slant when that slant could end up leaving chaos in its wake... I'm deeply wary of this course.

We put a great deal of care into handling Belegar's issues with the Thorgrim's perceived failures of kingship, and how we might ease them. Giving Thorek this ammo when the path seems similarly dark in its potential to divide the Karaz Ankor does not feel like the careful path here.

I am not casting judgement on anyone who believes otherwise: I am well aware that I tend towards more caution than most, sometimes detrimentally so, but it is my reasoning here.
 
[X] [THOREK] Both
[X] [ARM] Disassemble

As much as I would like Johann Three Arms, I'd like to be able to know how the arm works. We could then reassemble it and then have Johann Three Arms and if we learned how to make our own, we could even make him symmetrical as Johann Four Arms.
 
Darth. said:
As much as I would like Johann Three Arms, I'd like to be able to know how the arm works. We could then reassemble it and then have Johann Three Arms and if we learned how to make our own, we could even make him symmetrical as Johann Four Arms.
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Understand how things work?
That is not a very chiselhands attitude you have there my friend. :V
 
Shane_357 said:
The novels are the best source on the guy Alcadizaar himself, what he did and who he was. The rest of the lore is far more hazy, so I think erring on the side of the source with actual specific info can be forgiven.
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This is the canonicity tier list:
Boney said:
Tier 1: The Quest itself is primary canon.
Tier 2: WoQM applies unless it violates Quest canon (which I assume it has or will at some point).
Tier 3: Army Books (6th+), WHFRPG 2e - reasonably safe to assume that the fluff in these is canon unless the Quest or WoQM says otherwise. Game mechanics should not be taken as canon.
Tier 4: Black Library, White Dwarf articles - canonish, but the QM may not be familiar with them and the details are likely to end up varying if they are used.
Tier 5: Licensed video games, Warhammer Armies Project, WHFRPG 3e & 4e - mostly only used for things that aren't otherwise covered in higher tiers, and by default are not canon.
Tier 6: Army Books (pre-6th), WHFRPG (1e) - the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone. May be looted for ideas from time to time but is usually completely incompatible.
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For example, I won't be including any details about Malekith's Circlet of Iron. I tend to avoid the content from novels.
 
I'm trying to do some research on the Middle Mountians but the Wiki a fricken mess and I think GW has been wonky with their record keeping again.

For a start, it appears that the Middle Mountains was the location of a third chaos gate, which Grimnar spent many centuries fighting until his heir could replace him. I can't find a real source for that because citations are for nerds apparently, but I'm assuming it's End Times rubbish because it feels like the sort of pointless escalation that End Times would introduce. "Oh ho, you thought there were only two chaos gates? Well, you're wrong, there's a third, right in the middle of the most important nation in the story!" It also appears to contradict the story of Grimnir dying in the Chaos Wastes, but there's not enough information for me to say for sure.

Next up, there are two abandoned dwaven Karaks in the Middle Mountains, and both "were sealed with curses" after being abandoned. There's Karaz Ghumzul, from Sigmar's Heirs (WFRP 2nd), which fell during the Time of Woes (4000 years ago), and Karak Kazarak, from City of the White Wolf (WFRP 4th), which fell 200 years before Sigmar (2700 years ago) and the survivors helped the Teutogen tribesmen build Middenheim.

Kazarak is described as the "only dwarfhold in Middle Mountians during the time of the primeval Empire", whilst Ghumzul is a "short lived dwarf realm from the golden age". Additionally, Kazarak is in the western foothills, whilst Ghumzul is somewhere south of Wulfenburg in the east. But the fact that both holds were cursed after they fell, and the populations merged with local human populations implies to me that they are supposed to be the same place, only with names and dates changed between editions.

And if they are not the same place, and both exist in DL canon, then that means there are two communities of dwarfs in Middenheim from different dwarfholds. I can't imagine the Kazarak refugees would have been happy merging with the Ghumzul traitors.
 
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