Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Location
- Utrecht
In terms of intrigue, it's also very straightforward, and quid-pro quo.
You want my help? Here's my price.
You influence my judgement, I influence your judgement.
It's not even lying.
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Just to be clear I do not think there is anything magical about the process. I think that Mathilde is presenting the dwarfs with something they have never had to deal with (in modern times at least), an intrigue specialist whom they consider dependable. If you give someone a tool they are going to be inclined to use it... and if they use it odds are they will get better at it. Not every dwarf will take the chance to expand the horizons, but some will hence what I called tongue in cheek 'Mathilde infection'.
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I have no feelings on the arm thing either way. Thorek as partner might let us truly work (more) wonders. Might tee off Kragg a bit tho'.
[x] [THOREK] Both
[x] [THOREK] Both
- Location
- Aotearoa
Is this saying the leadership and wealthy of Karaz Ghumzul abandoned their own children to destitute begging, while purchasing a place of safety only for that priveliged elite?
If so, well, those Grudges Thorek outlines have my support.
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We've come a long way from the first time we saw Thorek. We didn't even talk to him on screen until we needed an ally for AV, and we had a 50% chance of getting Kragg and a 33.3% chance of getting Thorek. I wonder how many things would have been different if Kragg accepted AV instead. I somehow doubt we would have had the rapport and relationship necessary to get this kind of intrigue going with Thorek if we didn't already have a working relationship with him.
In fact, I remember how some of us were disappointed when we spent AV to get a briefing on Dum from him because we expected more actionable information. But I'm starting to suspect that that conversation created a ton of buildup that makes all of this very narratively satisfying. I'm not sure if Boney planned it out or it just turned out like that, but man does the progression in our relationship with Thorek feel smooth.
In fact, I remember how some of us were disappointed when we spent AV to get a briefing on Dum from him because we expected more actionable information. But I'm starting to suspect that that conversation created a ton of buildup that makes all of this very narratively satisfying. I'm not sure if Boney planned it out or it just turned out like that, but man does the progression in our relationship with Thorek feel smooth.
This is three thousand year old history that we got from the Runelord who lives at almost the exact opposite side of the Karaz Ankor. I would not so much take this with a grain of salt as several cartloads.
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- Location
- Finland
Yes, Mathilde is a new tool Thorek previously had not, but willingness to use a new tool suited for a job is not really that exceptional, nor does it present anykind of change in the person using it.
I don't see this necessarily being anykind of expanded horizon to Thorek, a new opportunity certainly, but not a change in how he thinks or acts.
- Location
- Aotearoa
The stuff also gets recorded and written down in exacting detail by experts in Grudgelore.
And then it goes through the Time of Woes and all you have is sixth hand information from someone who heard it from his grandfather as he was dying with an orc arrow in his gut.
- Location
- Finland
I am somewhat dubious on how literal Thorek is being here.
There may be other interpretations that are less condemning to the dawi in question, while still being true to Thoreks details.
I am onboard of helping Thorek, just in principle of getting those old secrets back to use, but i am not willing to fully condemn the long dead dawi involved just yet.
There may be other interpretations that are less condemning to the dawi in question, while still being true to Thoreks details.
I am onboard of helping Thorek, just in principle of getting those old secrets back to use, but i am not willing to fully condemn the long dead dawi involved just yet.
It does as the craft of intrigue is one that usually carries a heavy social stigma. The availability itself combined with what he sees as an urgent need may have pushed him into doing something he previously considered beyond the pale.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Sure, it could be lost in the mists of time, but I'm asking if I am correct in my interpretation of what Thorek is claiming.
I'm not sure I'm parsing it right, because you know, it's heinous.
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- Location
- Finland
Yet intrigue is used anyway.
Not all dawi map 100% to ideal ot stereotype.
Dawi lie, dawi steal, dawi break contracts and abandon their posts.
Thorek being willing to use intrigue is not a sign that Mathilde provided him with somekind of revelation, at most it shows that Thorek has the option of doing so.
Not all dawi, but the closer to the top of the political hierarchy you go the more the norms of society are followed, because there are more eyes of them and being found out leads to shame. Dwarf thieves and fences there are aplenty, dwarf lying cheating courtiers less so and intrigue-skilled Runelords strike me as very unlikely.
It could also be wrong or muddled.
- Location
- Finland
Or better they are at concealing it, or more capable they are ignoring censure because they are just that good or that important.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Look. I don't care about in the in-universe accuracy to real events right now. That is not what I am wondering about.
I am not sure of the English, it is not clear to me. It is a question about the meaning of the passage.
Ah... oops, sorry about that. I thought you meant 'if this is accurate'.
Possible certainly, but still extraordinarily unlikely IMO, since skill at intrigue is something that must be cultivated and you do not start off as too skilled to catch or too important to censure
- Location
- Finland
And you would not expect a centuries old Runelord to be exactly the kind of person who is going to be exceptional?
You are, i feel, doing dawi a disservice with this idea that they could not possible come up something as simple as "i do this, and in turn i do that" as a backroom dealing without meeting Mathilde and having some world changing revelation as a consequence.
That's what Thorek is claiming, yes. When the time of Woes made the hold unsustainable, the poorer clans were sent to beg charity and refuge from the Karaz Ankor, whilst the wealthier clans used their money and influence to obtain comfortable lifestyles within the Empire.
Now the thread can argue back and forth how accurate that claim is all day, but the fact is that the hold split into two groups; one group stayed within the borders of the Empire and became wealthy, and one group migrated across the continent and became destitute. Dwarf culture demands that the wealthier clans use their wealth to support the poorer clans (we learned that with the "potluck alloy" from the festival we attended with Johann), and the clans that stayed appear to have been failing in this duty, which is grudge worthy by itself.
Pretty sure 14 is a fairly decent level particularly for someone who isn't focused on intrigue; maybe not quite spymaster level but definetly not an amateur. Remember that anything past 20 is rare.
Mathilde's stats are crazy high - her average is slightly over 23 whilst nobody else is in any danger of nearing 20.
[X] [THOREK] Karaz Ghumzul
I think there is a very great danger in Mathilde getting involved in the Runesmith internal grumblings. Especially since we don't know enough about the Karak Dum/Cor Dum situation to draw reasonable conclusions. Causing an actual schism is not what we want. Karaz Ghumzul on the other hand I am ok with, since if the Middleheim dwarves haven't made significant active efforts to reclaim it by now I doubt they're going to start anytime soon.
I think there is a very great danger in Mathilde getting involved in the Runesmith internal grumblings. Especially since we don't know enough about the Karak Dum/Cor Dum situation to draw reasonable conclusions. Causing an actual schism is not what we want. Karaz Ghumzul on the other hand I am ok with, since if the Middleheim dwarves haven't made significant active efforts to reclaim it by now I doubt they're going to start anytime soon.
Would they definitely still know about how to unseal any runic seals? My impression would be that undoing the Runic seals would require runesmith knowledge, and that Runesmiths don't exist outside the Karaz Ankor, with any runesmiths that did exist before they left the Karaz Ankor being unlikely to share lore. Though I suppose if it's passwords or a particular bloodline that wouldn't trigger Runesmith anti-sharing laws.
[X] [THOREK] Both
[X] [ARM] Disassemble
[x] [ARM] Johann
I want either the arm to be disassembled to learn more about prosthetics or it to go to our friend johann to be used. Both favors are significantly more important as it gives us full support of thorek and I think it is worth the cost that is expected of us.
[X] [ARM] Disassemble
[x] [ARM] Johann
I want either the arm to be disassembled to learn more about prosthetics or it to go to our friend johann to be used. Both favors are significantly more important as it gives us full support of thorek and I think it is worth the cost that is expected of us.