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On the other hand both could be true. It might be that only someone with an obsession as single minded as Kragg can get that old. After all we do not know how many more years Thoek has in him
Thorek is also a living ancestor, iirc.

You don't get to be "the nearest thing he has to a peer" while being under 400.

Given Kragg's age, there's an 800 year range where you could be a living ancestor, and still not have been born when Kragg was a living ancestor.

But also, Reforming the Runesmith guild could very well be the thing Thorek obsesses over to give death the finger for as long as he needs to.
 
You know we joke about Mathilde having a dwarf infection all the time, but has anyone considered that we may be giving the dwarfs who interact with us a bit of a Grey Wizard infection?

I mean think about what Thorek is asking here, not the Ghumzul thing, that is uncommonly subtle for a pissed off dwarf seeking to gain secrets from those he considers unworthy, but whatever, you work with the tools you have. No the thing that makes me think Thorek might have 'Goraki' in his sheet is the offer to trade his judgement on the matter of Waystones for a favorable report on Dum. That is really underhanded, far more so than what Belegar did by hitting Moulder to help Mors during the battles for Eight Peaks.

Thorek is saying in so many words 'here is my price for rendering a favorable judgement to you in matters of the Guild of Runesmiths'. For humans this sort of explicit trade of influence would be called Tuesday, but I do not think it is the same for the dawi, especially those of Thungi's line.
 
(Vote to) try it and find out?
I've tried this voting thing for a couple of years now, and I must say I am not too impressed by its ability to give me what I want.

I think it would be more productive if we switched to an autocratical system where I decide absolutely everything, which I think would greatly enhance Mathilde's ability to clear out her backlog.

[X] [THOREK] Both
[X] [ARM] Johann

Today, we will stir the shit.
Please, it's rude to call Middenheim that.
 
You know we joke about Mathilde having a dwarf infection all the time, but has anyone considered that we may be giving the dwarfs who interact with us a bit of a Grey Wizard infection?

I mean think about what Thorek is asking here, not the Ghumzul thing, that is uncommonly subtle for a pissed off dwarf seeking to gain secrets from those he considers unworthy, but whatever, you work with the tools you have. No the thing that makes me think Thorek might have 'Goraki' in his sheet is the offer to trade his judgement on the matter of Waystones for a favorable report on Dum. That is really underhanded, far more so than what Belegar did by hitting Moulder to help Mors during the battles for Eight Peaks.

Thorek is saying in so many words 'here is my price for rendering a favorable judgement to you in matters of the Guild of Runesmiths'. For humans this sort of explicit trade of influence would be called Tuesday, but I do not think it is the same for the dawi, especially those of Thungi's line.
Karak Azul was isolated for 3000 years.

Sure, the culture is essentially preserved. But I doubt it's completely unchanged.

Karak Azul does not have 2500 years of interaction with the empire to fall back on.

So, with Thorek being a scientist, and Mathilde being the best human he knows, he's forming his own opinion.

It's very possible that Thorek has a quite skewed perception of humans.
 
Karak Azul was isolated for 3000 years.

Sure, the culture is essentially preserved. But I doubt it's completely unchanged.

Karak Azul does not have 2500 years of interaction with the empire to fall back on.

So, with Thorek being a scientist, and Mathilde being the best human he knows, he's forming his own opinion.

It's very possible that Thorek has a quite skewed perception of humans.

Very good point.

I don't know if the idea that Azul may think the empire is made up of Mathildes is hilarious or horrifying. :V
 
"Some," you hedge. "Probably in a different context to most."

He looks up at you, and you can practically see 'oh right, she's a Grey Wizard' run through his mind.

Mathilde might be a dork, but she's also a scary murder dork.

You consider the possibility that you are dealing with an imposter, possibly one that is aligning itself for an assassination attempt on your person, and you resist the impulse to dismiss it out of hand.

Mathilde might be a scary murder dork, but she's also a paranoid scary murder dork convinced everything is out to get her.

Oh Grey College, why must you be like this?

"So," he says, as you draw a mug for him. "We send an Umgi Zhufokri to sup with rebel Elgi to claw back the knowledge of our Ancestors."

Oof. That's an antagonistic way to start the conversation. And he's not wrong.

You know, this whole project is kind of interesting, because whilst on the surface it's a collaboration, underneath it's about three different magical groups all trying steal magical secrets from the others, all convinced the other parties know something they don't. This is starting to feel like a cold war spy thriller.

They fail the Karaz Ankor twice over, for in the absence of Thungni, Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation as He tries to do alone what should be the work of two.

Now this is interesting, because engineering has become a daily part of dwarven life. Canons and handguns are everyday tools of war. Gyrocopters keep the holds connected. Steamships and ironclads patrol the rivers. Zhufbar is the engineering hold.

But runesmithing, which is a fundamental part of dwarven culture, has become a bit of a relic, only known and used by old masters who remember the old days. There were only a few thousand runic items in the reclamation of K8P. Runesmiths did not devise a way to maintain contact between the holds. The greatest achievement of the kings of Barak Var is to fund the creation of a dreadnought. There is no "runesmithing hold", unless we include Vlag and Dum. It is Manling canons that secure Karak Eight Peaks, not dwarven runecraft.

Thungni isn't a god for the modern Karaz Ankor. When Gunnars was rebuilding shrines to the Ancestors, only two were made for Thungni—a personal shrine for Thorek, and a personal shrine for Kragg, whilst Morgrim had a public one put in the Gyrocopter bay.

The runesmiths are utterly disconnected from the people they serve, and they are becoming less relevant each year, except as the creators of antiques and relics.

And Thorek wants to change that. He wants to drag the runesmiths—the ones who are failing in their duties, the ones who are failing their people—into the modern day, before all that's left of them is family heirlooms.

[X] [THOREK] Both
[X] [ARM] Johann



... I just realised something. We used the coin to convince Thorek to help us. Thorek is proposing a revolution within the guild. Ranald is the god of revolutions.

Now, I acknowledge that this is something Thorek was planning anyway, but I think we just sailed into Boston harbour with a shipment of tea, and Ranald was at the helm. Ranald used the coin to influence Thorek to be more inflammatory towards the status quo than he normally would be, and shit's kicking off now instead of several decades down the line.

Oops.

Also, I think we have, like, a religious duty to support this now?
 
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You know we joke about Mathilde having a dwarf infection all the time, but has anyone considered that we may be giving the dwarfs who interact with us a bit of a Grey Wizard infection?

I mean think about what Thorek is asking here, not the Ghumzul thing, that is uncommonly subtle for a pissed off dwarf seeking to gain secrets from those he considers unworthy, but whatever, you work with the tools you have. No the thing that makes me think Thorek might have 'Goraki' in his sheet is the offer to trade his judgement on the matter of Waystones for a favorable report on Dum. That is really underhanded, far more so than what Belegar did by hitting Moulder to help Mors during the battles for Eight Peaks.

Thorek is saying in so many words 'here is my price for rendering a favorable judgement to you in matters of the Guild of Runesmiths'. For humans this sort of explicit trade of influence would be called Tuesday, but I do not think it is the same for the dawi, especially those of Thungi's line.
Thorek always was political animal with a willingness to bend rules, pay no more then lip service to traditions and go on technicalities. Look no further than him taking Kazrik as apprentice.

He has been that way since before Mathilde was born.
 
Thorek always was political animal with a willingness to bend rules, pay no more then lip service to traditions and go on technicalities. Look no further than him taking Kazrik as apprentice.

He has been that way since before Mathilde was born.

Yeah but politics does not have to be intrigue, it can and I suspect for dwarfs usually is diplomacy. Thorek taking a prince as an apprentice to curry royal favor is by definition a public act, what it is not is trading power and influence in secret.
 
Yeah but politics does not have to be intrigue, it can and I suspect for dwarfs usually is diplomacy. Thorek taking a prince as an apprentice to curry royal favor is by definition a public act, what it is not is trading power and influence in secret.
We don't know that. Trading influence in secret is, well, secret, so the only thing we *do* know are public acts which may or may not be negotiated beforehand in secret.

Now, the fact that Thorek is willing to negotiate with us in such a context is indeed very notable.
 
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Let's never let Kragg know that we tested an unidentified piece of foreign magical equipment by attaching it to someone's fresh amputation site. I think he'd slap us.

I think that if the way we enabled and are enabling Johann's rather transhumanism ever got public we would get a lot disappointed and dismayed grumbling over this.

Even Belegar might tug his beard and ask if there wasn't a better way (and probably if Johann is actually sane).

Thorek is saying in so many words 'here is my price for rendering a favorable judgement to you in matters of the Guild of Runesmiths'. For humans this sort of explicit trade of influence would be called Tuesday, but I do not think it is the same for the dawi, especially those of Thungi's line.

Thorek is explicitly involved in politics - it is unsurprising that after a few centuries he has reached this sort of level (also we didn't really talk politics with him - unlike Belegar where Mathilde did mentor in terms of intrigue).

Off. That's an antagonistic way to start the conversation. And he's not wrong.

It immensely self deprecating with more than a hint of bitterness from a Runelord. Thorek basically admitting that not only did the Runesmiths guild lose knowledge but they need Mathilde to recover it.
 
Dwarves are not strangers to intrigue.
It might not be their number one trait, but they know it, and use it, when it suits them.
 
Dwarves are not strangers to intrigue.
It might not be their number one trait, but they know it, and use it, when it suits them.

I think it is clear by Belegar's intrigue being seen as extraordinary for a dwarf, that high intrigue on a dwarf is very much the exception and not the rule, and as they are mostly terrible at it we can assume that they rarely make use of it. I recall someone asked about a 'dwarf secret service' and the GM said he would not use it because it would not fit them.
 
I think it is clear by Belegar's intrigue being seen as extraordinary for a dwarf, that high intrigue on a dwarf is very much the exception and not the rule, and as they are mostly terrible at it we can assume that they rarely make use of it. I recall someone asked about a 'dwarf secret service' and the GM said he would not use it because it would not fit them.
Yes, high intrigue dwarves are an exception, but then so are wizard humans.
It is not that dawi are natural schemers, just they know such people exist, can take steps to deal with them, and occasionally have some of their own.
You do not get to be the second best runelord alive by being average, Thorek may just happen to have high intrigue as one of his traits, either from practice or natural inclination.
The point was merely in opposition to the idea that Mathilde must be rubbing of on dawi she meets.
Which is probably true to an extent, but this is not necessarioly evidence of it.
 
Yes, high intrigue dwarves are an exception, but then so are wizard humans.
It is not that dawi are natural schemers, just they know such people exist, can take steps to deal with them, and occasionally have some of their own.
You do not get to be the second best runelord alive by being average, Thorek may just happen to have high intrigue as one of his traits, either from practice or natural inclination.
The point was merely in opposition to the idea that Mathilde must be rubbing of on dawi she meets.
Which is probably true to an extent, but this is not necessarioly evidence of it.

Keep in mind Belegar's intrigue is not actually high. The dwarf who is extraordinary enough to have goraki on his sheet, to have serious psychological issues related to the fact has an intrigue of 14, talented amateur levels of intrigue. This to me indicates that dwarfs with any inkling of intrigue are rare in the high level politics of the Karaz Ankor and therefore that their politics are inherently hostile to such stratagems because they are so vulnerable. I do not think what Thorek is doing here is 'business as usual' or even close to it and I do not think he would be engaging in it if he did not feel Mathilde was uniquely suited to such a trade of influence so in that sense our contact with him is making him more likely to act and think in an underhanded manner.
 
I find it a little strange on how metaphorical gold and real gold ended up so different in material qualities.
 
[X] [THOREK] Both
[X] [ARM] Johann

Like I said during the final battle of K8P there is a time for playing it slow and steady and a time to charge ahead full steam. K8P needed us to be slow and methodical but here? Now? Now is the time to shake things up. Increased Runesmith activity is both a moral and utilitarian good. Besides its not like the thread consensous wasn't the same as Thorek's back when Dum happened.

As for Johann I just want m'boi to have a cool cyber arm that shoot lasers.
 
Keep in mind Belegar's intrigue is not actually high. The dwarf who is extraordinary enough to have goraki on his sheet, to have serious psychological issues related to the fact has an intrigue of 14, talented amateur levels of intrigue. This to me indicates that dwarfs with any inkling of intrigue are rare in the high level politics of the Karaz Ankor and therefore that their politics are inherently hostile to such stratagems because they are so vulnerable. I do not think what Thorek is doing here is 'business as usual' or even close to it and I do not think he would be engaging in it if he did not feel Mathilde was uniquely suited to such a trade of influence so in that sense our contact with him is making him more likely to act and think in an underhanded manner.
Anton started with 4 in diplomacy, and look where that got him.
But yes, i agree that high, or even middling, intrigue dwarves are rare and general politics of Karaz Ankor reflect this.
And i agree that Thorek would not do this kind of exchange with another dwarf, or most humans, but MAthilde is someone he knows, respects, trusts, and feels is open to this kind of talk, so he decided to take the plunge.

None of that really changes my general point.
It is possible that Thorek is just high intrigue dwarf and this talk is not because Mathilde has somehow infected dawi with ulgu mindset.
 
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