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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alliterate said:
There's side by side, and there's 'you lot go in first' or 'you stand there and receive the charge'. I don't remember many mixed units.
Still, I expect you're right about it being the Ulricans only, but even if it hadn't been, leavers would be equally removed from the forest. Maybe it'd depend if they wanted punishment, or just to get the forests back.
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If they thought expulsion would do the job, I don't see why Cadaeth would have talked so much about deeds soaked in blood.
 
@Boney, sorry if you've answered this before; searches brought nothing up. What's the official explanation when two priests of the same god fight each other with miracles? That one of the priests is faking their powers? Or is it the Hades explanation where they say the gods bless someone if they're worthy in some way even if they're death-worthily heretical in other ways? Or some other method or case-by-case basis?
 
I think there was a wide range of different responses that the Eonir had to how severe they wanted the punishment to be, and the general idea of them dying was what managed to mollify the most people. They sent off the Ulricans to do the dirty work and to cement the alliance, and if those Ulricans happened to smuggle 10k people out of the forests that the Eonir control, and some of them saw it, as long as those said Ulricans were exiled and had no connection to the main church, those at the highest levels would be willing to overlook it since the matter is done.

The Eonir would have definitely jumped to violent solutions because I don't think the Nordlanders would have listened to them, but the Nordlanders would indeed be more willing to listen to Empire folk, even if they're Middenlanders.
 
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Andres110 said:
@Boney, sorry if you've answered this before; searches brought nothing up. What's the official explanation when two priests of the same god fight each other with miracles? That one of the priests is faking their powers? Or is it the Hades explanation where they say the gods bless someone if they're worthy in some way even if they're death-worthily heretical in other ways? Or some other method or case-by-case basis?
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Unspoken assumptions wrapped up in this question:
That the God in question has the ability and the inclination to watch every moment of Their followers' lives.
That the God in question would not allow two followers to fight using The powers they have been granted.
That the believers in that God have any right to question the criteria by which the God grants power.

Without those assumptions, the original question is no longer able to be asked. The Warhammer Gods are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or infallible. Sometimes they aren't paying attention. Sometimes they don't care. Sometimes they're too busy dealing with something else, or too expended by doing so, to intervene in a given situation. Sometimes they change their mind, sometimes they're tricked, sometimes they're charmed or amused. Inconsistency on their part does not undermine the whole institution because nobody in universe (except a few monotheistic heresies) is expecting perfect consistency of them.
 
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Boney said:
Unspoken assumptions wrapped up in this question:
That the God in question has the ability and the inclination to watch every moment of Their followers' lives.
That the God in question would not allow two followers to fight using The powers they have been granted.
That the believers in that God have any right to question the criteria by which the God grants power.

Without those assumptions, the original question is no longer able to be asked. The Warhammer Gods are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or infallible. Sometimes they aren't paying attention. Sometimes they don't care. Sometimes they're too busy dealing with something else, or too expended by doing so, to intervene in a given situation. Sometimes they change their mind, sometimes they're tricked, sometimes they're charmed or amused. Inconsistency on their part does not undermine the whole institution because nobody in universe (except a few monotheistic heresies) is expecting perfect consistency of them.
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I think the question was about what the cults say about the situation in universe, cause it's obviously not a good look. And even if you don't expect perfect consistency, I can't see humans not tell a story about those inconsistencies.
 
BurnNote said:
I think the question was about what the cults say about the situation in universe, cause it's obviously not a good look. And even if you don't expect perfect consistency, I can't see humans not tell a story about those inconsistencies.
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Obviously only the one that agreed with the Cult was actually empowered and not both...
If they say anything at all.
 
Boney said:
Unspoken assumptions wrapped up in this question:
That the God in question has the ability and the inclination to watch every moment of Their followers' lives.
That the God in question would not allow two followers to fight using The powers they have been granted.
That the believers in that God have any right to question the criteria by which the God grants power.

Without those assumptions, the original question is no longer able to be asked. The Warhammer Gods are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or infallible. Sometimes they aren't paying attention. Sometimes they don't care. Sometimes they're too busy dealing with something else, or too expended by doing so, to intervene in a given situation. Sometimes they change their mind, sometimes they're tricked, sometimes they're charmed or amused. Inconsistency on their part does not undermine the whole institution because nobody in universe is expecting perfect consistency of them.
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By "official explanation" I meant the official explanation given by the cults. While OOC we can see the gods are flawed and there's a number of reasons why a miracle vs miracle fight can happen, I didn't know the cults' official explanation of how two Sigmarite priests could declare each other heretics and still both fight with miracles. Inevitably such a thing would happen and the cults would have an answer for that, but very unhelpfully the RPG books don't tell you that answer. It's damnably frustrating that the only thing the RPGs say about miracle-working priests is that they're considered holy saints, nothing about their conflicts or even about how much they're able to influence people by their status as miracle-workers alone. (Certainly isn't the same as how people IRL would react to people manifesting such obvious miracles.)

But anyway, thanks for the explanation. I now know the cults' party line on the matter.
 
BurnNote said:
I think the question was about what the cults say about the situation in universe, cause it's obviously not a good look. And even if you don't expect perfect consistency, I can't see humans not tell a story about those inconsistencies.
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I do not see what part of the Ulric bible that would have a problem with two priests having a divine bro-off, as long as the loser agrees with the winner, regardless of the argument.
 
BurnNote said:
I think the question was about what the cults say about the situation in universe, cause it's obviously not a good look. And even if you don't expect perfect consistency, I can't see humans not tell a story about those inconsistencies.
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Andres110 said:
By "official explanation" I meant the official explanation given by the cults. While OOC we can see the gods are flawed and there's a number of reasons why a miracle vs miracle fight can happen, I didn't know the cults' official explanation of how two Sigmarite priests could declare each other heretics and still both fight with miracles. Inevitably such a thing would happen and the cults would have an answer for that, but very unhelpfully the RPG books don't tell you that answer. It's damnably frustrating that the only thing the RPGs say about miracle-working priests is that they're considered holy saints, nothing about their conflicts or even about how much they're able to influence people by their status as miracle-workers alone. (Certainly isn't the same as how people IRL would react to people manifesting such obvious miracles.)

But anyway, thanks for the explanation. I now know the cults' party line on the matter.
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In a monotheistic religious system where a God is believed to be the only God and all the omnis to boot, questions like that are treated like matters of philosophy. It's taken as a given that the God is doing the right thing, so asking the question is requesting that you be helped to understand why it is the right thing. When the Gods are plural and fallible, then that question becomes a lot more loaded - by raising the question about whether they are using their power wisely or justly, or asking a question that can be interpreted as doing so, you're questioning the right of that deity to be worshipped at all, and by extension the right of the Cult to have the power and influence it has. So it becomes less a 'interesting question, let me guide you to the relevant passage' and more 'YOU DARE QUESTION THE AUTHORITY OF LOERK, LORD OF THE DANCE?! ART THOU A SINNER?! ART THOU A SECRET WORSHIPPER OF HATED MILLAVOG?!' and then it's all shunning and penance and an actual answer is never actually needed.
 
Codex said:
I didn't understand what "gamine" meant, but after looking it up, and seeing the use of they as their pronouns, I'm assuming this musician is nonbinary?

If so, I love it. Did we get their name?
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When you google the word Gamine, the page in Wikipedia shows Audrey Hepburn, believed to be one of the most beautiful women that ever lived. (and yes, i'm also a fan)

Considering Elves are known for the beauty.. and short hair is practical...
 
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Andres110 said:
Isn't true, permanent transmutation what the Gold Order's got as their biggest ambition? Seems like they already solved it there.
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There's no guarantee the transmutation was permanent. It just needed to last long enough to screw over Gausser. It's not like the mercenaries are suddenly going to believe when he says "wait, no, I have the money now".
 
deathofrats0808 said:
There's no guarantee the transmutation was permanent. It just needed to last long enough to screw over Gausser. It's not like the mercenaries are suddenly going to believe when he says "wait, no, I have the money now".
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The thing about the 'true transmutation' thing is that it takes a fair bit of science to understand why it's not actually happening in fires and stomachs. When people at this level of understanding are talking about 'true transmutation' they mean from something worthless to something valuable, not the other way around, because turning something valuable to something worthless is everyday. To start sitting up and going 'hang on, what?!' when gold permanently turns to lead requires you to understand the difference between a compound and an element.
 
Andres110 said:
By "official explanation" I meant the official explanation given by the cults. While OOC we can see the gods are flawed and there's a number of reasons why a miracle vs miracle fight can happen, I didn't know the cults' official explanation of how two Sigmarite priests could declare each other heretics and still both fight with miracles. Inevitably such a thing would happen and the cults would have an answer for that, but very unhelpfully the RPG books don't tell you that answer. It's damnably frustrating that the only thing the RPGs say about miracle-working priests is that they're considered holy saints, nothing about their conflicts or even about how much they're able to influence people by their status as miracle-workers alone. (Certainly isn't the same as how people IRL would react to people manifesting such obvious miracles.)

But anyway, thanks for the explanation. I now know the cults' party line on the matter.
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ONE of them* was clearly in league with the Ruinous Powers and using their fell sorcery to falsely imitate the miracles of Sigmar. Otherwise they wouldn't have been fighting, would they?

* the one that lost
 
So I guess I've been a little confused/disconcerted by the absence of elven wizards stepping forward to say, "Hey hello, yeah we're the ones who wanted to do this Waystone project. Let's talk about it."

Mathilde showed up at Laurelorn and she's offered living space and a place to set up a laboratory, which we now understand is a huge deal. But there doesn't seem to be anyone "in charge" of the project on the Laurelorn side stepping forward to say, "Yes here are the people definitely interested, and here's the ones who might be interested if we can show them something promising and here are the wizards believed to be our local experts in waystones." Instead Mathilde seems to have been left to wander around on her own and try to recruit houses/wards. And I guess if you asked me who that person would be, I would have assumed either Vicereine Cadaeth or if she's too important then someone she assigned to the job. After all, this whole thing was Cadaeth's baby in some sense.

Maybe it's an elven cultural thing, where of course you'd want to spend a year thinking about stuff first? Maybe it's a test? I don't know and I don't quite get it.
 
Briefvoice said:
So I guess I've been a little confused/disconcerted by the absence of elven wizards stepping forward to say, "Hey hello, yeah we're the ones who wanted to do this Waystone project. Let's talk about it."
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It's still within the realm of power playing.

Even if they were going to agree from the beginning, Make them come to us' is a power move, let's them negotiate from the strong side of the table.

I don't think we have to worry about them completely bluffing until they start Dodging..
 
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