Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[consequences]

They are former isolationists that barely know where Vlag is. I doubt they would be too impressed by third hand tales or us boasting

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They noticed the Eight Peaks waystones coming back online. Which means the likely noticed Vlag coming back online. And Mathilde is the first person they're likely to ask about what the heck happened, being their now officially a Dawi point of contact.

If they were that determined to be uselessly blind, they never would have reached out in the first place.

 

[DragonParadox]

but we need to remember that it has to be a secret skill, but we can decide what type of secret: gey college secret, WEB-MAT guild secret or master-apprentice.

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No it does not though, it is our skill and our decision. We can choose to share it with any wizard to cross our path, hell we can choose to teach it with a Bretonian Damsel as long as we do it in Bretonia since she would technically not be allowed to use magic in the Empire.

Just because something is done often does not mean we have to do it, indeed in this case I would argue that it would be silly to do given the nature of the secret. Also consider what is the worst that could happen? Oh no the evil wizards can now carefully avoid making Dhar when making multi-wind enchantments... the horror.

Like keeping a secret just because we can is not I think a good idea, there has to be some reason besides saying 'knowledge is power' and waving our hands dramatically.

 

[IronFist]

40 DF. We did end up shelling out for the Ambers as well as everyone else, which may end up paying dividends if we need to convince them to play ball with us on Waystones.

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I was actually not counting the Grey college, not the Amber one. Mathilde was a Grey Magister and she spent two Kragg crafted artifacts worth of DF on the other colleges, even though the only thing she gets for herself is her name spelled out.
Despite how much she likes having her name on things, it's probably not worth 35 DF just for that.

 

[DragonParadox]

I was actually not counting the Grey college, not the Amber one. Mathilde was a Grey Magister and she spent two Kragg crafted artifacts worth of DF on the other colleges, even though the only thing she gets for herself is her name spelled out.
Despite how much she likes having her name on things, it's probably not worth 35 DF just for that.

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She also got 40 College Rep which was most likely no small part of why she became a LM so young

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

To change the topic slightly, I keep finding myself amazed at the stunning piece of diplomacy the Eonir have crafted despite being isolationists for thousands of years.

When their territories were being encroached by beastmen, goblins and Nordlanders (insert your own "who smells worse" joke here) they mass converted to a neighbouring god in order to build a military alliance with Middenheim and the Cult of Ulric.

When this alliance got entrapped by the Grand Theogonist in imperial politics, threatening the intervention of the Emperor, they roped in both the Colleges of Magic and Karak Eight Peaks by headhunting Mathilde, not for her skill in diplomacy or intrigue, but for her skill in understanding foreign magical perspectives, which has a duel purpose in both being able to develop strategies against the goblins and beastmen but also by tasking her to investigate a lost magical wonder.

Now the political situation is no longer deadlocked; we've got Nordland and the Cult of Sigmar on one side, and Middenheim, the Cult of Ulric, The Colleges of Magic and Karak Eight Peaks on the other. If the Emperor now chooses to become involved, he must side with the Eonir or risk alienating both the Colleges and his dwarven allies, and the Cult of Sigmar can't protest because of their religious commandment to always help dwarves. So essentially it's just Nordland against half the Empire now.

It doesn't matter if Mathilde fails to divine any of the secrets of the waystones. It doesn't matter if she can't create a counter to the lore of the wild. It doesn't matter if the whole thing ends up being a useless boondoggle that drains the coffers of three different nations.

Because the Eonir have already won.

They've enforced their land claims. They've secured military allies. They've built diplomatic links into some of the most powerful institutions in the Empire. They've opened diplomatic channels to Empire and the Karaz Ankor, who now have to treat them as an equal.

And no one can accuse the Eonir of being selfish, manipulative or coercive because their every move has been backed with sincerity. They do believe in Ulric. They do want to restore and use the Waystones. They have stayed within the letter and spirit of the law, and you can't even hold them accountable for the deaths and displacement of ten's of thousands of Nordlanders, because it was really their own fault for being so greedy, and besides, who even cares about some grubby human peasants anyway?

 

[LightLan]

I was actually not counting the Grey college, not the Amber one. Mathilde was a Grey Magister and she spent two Kragg crafted artifacts worth of DF on the other colleges, even though the only thing she gets for herself is her name spelled out.
Despite how much she likes having her name on things, it's probably not worth 35 DF just for that.

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The real prize we got is the heightened survival rate of future magisters and battle mages.

More magisters, more battle mages, a more secure empire.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I was actually not counting the Grey college, not the Amber one. Mathilde was a Grey Magister and she spent two Kragg crafted artifacts worth of DF on the other colleges, even though the only thing she gets for herself is her name spelled out.
Despite how much she likes having her name on things, it's probably not worth 35 DF just for that.

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Worth is relative. A second Kragg-crafted sword isn't going to be that useful to Mathilde beyond its monetary value - dual wielding would drag down her combat capability.

Flexing her best dwarf friend status in a way that's going to be viewed very positively by all the Colleges? That's one very good bit of politicking right there. Sure she's never been to Cathay nor can she turn into a really big dragon but Mathilde's still did some impressive stuff aiding the Dawi - those 35 DF carved a physical monument to Mathilde's status as a hero for the Karaz Ankor into the physical structure of the Colleges.

 

[IronFist]

The real prize we got is the heightened survival rate of future magisters and battle mages.

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That's not exactly something for Mathilde though. Something for the Institution she is part of, but not for her personally.

 

[NeonLights]

I was actually not counting the Grey college, not the Amber one. Mathilde was a Grey Magister and she spent two Kragg crafted artifacts worth of DF on the other colleges, even though the only thing she gets for herself is her name spelled out.
Despite how much she likes having her name on things, it's probably not worth 35 DF just for that.

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Remember Dragomas and his political platform of Battle Wizard QoL? He doesn't owe us a favor, but the Rooms built up goodwill and name recognition throughout the Colleges that can likely be tapped for our own ends.

 

[IronFist]

Remember Dragomas and his political platform of Battle Wizard QoL? He doesn't owe us a favor, but the Rooms built up goodwill and name recognition throughout the Colleges that can likely be tapped for our own ends.

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I think we're getting further from my original point.
Mathilde has the mindset of a grey wizard: secrecy, twisty thoughts and paranoia, but that hasn't stopped her from putting her best foot forward when helping the colleges as much as she can, either through personal expense (case in point a ton of dwarf favor), and by sharing any applicable knowledge freely (Particularly Mathilde's matrix, Mathilde's Map, Waagh and Peace).
She won't withhold Windherding to give the Grey college some political advantage.

I'm not saying that she didn't enjoy getting her name on the rooms, and the recognition that comes with contributing so much, but I don't think it's her primary motivator. It's a pleasant side effect of the contribution, not the main goal.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

To change the topic slightly, I keep finding myself amazed at the stunning piece of diplomacy the Eonir have crafted despite being isolationists for thousands of years.

When their territories were being encroached by beastmen, goblins and Nordlanders (insert your own "who smells worse" joke here) they mass converted to a neighbouring god in order to build a military alliance with Middenheim and the Cult of Ulric.

When this alliance got entrapped by the Grand Theogonist in imperial politics, threatening the intervention of the Emperor, they roped in both the Colleges of Magic and Karak Eight Peaks by headhunting Mathilde, not for her skill in diplomacy or intrigue, but for her skill in understanding foreign magical perspectives, which has a duel purpose in both being able to develop strategies against the goblins and beastmen but also by tasking her to investigate a lost magical wonder.

Now the political situation is no longer deadlocked; we've got Nordland and the Cult of Sigmar on one side, and Middenheim, the Cult of Ulric, The Colleges of Magic and Karak Eight Peaks on the other. If the Emperor now chooses to become involved, he must side with the Eonir or risk alienating both the Colleges and his dwarven allies, and the Cult of Sigmar can't protest because of their religious commandment to always help dwarves. So essentially it's just Nordland against half the Empire now.

It doesn't matter if Mathilde fails to divine any of the secrets of the waystones. It doesn't matter if she can't create a counter to the lore of the wild. It doesn't matter if the whole thing ends up being a useless boondoggle that drains the coffers of three different nations.

Because the Eonir have already won.

They've enforced their land claims. They've secured military allies. They've built diplomatic links into some of the most powerful institutions in the Empire. They've opened diplomatic channels to Empire and the Karaz Ankor, who now have to treat them as an equal.

And no one can accuse the Eonir of being selfish, manipulative or coercive because their every move has been backed with sincerity. They do believe in Ulric. They do want to restore and use the Waystones. They have stayed within the letter and spirit of the law, and you can't even hold them accountable for the deaths and displacement of ten's of thousands of Nordlanders, because it was really their own fault for being so greedy, and besides, who even cares about some grubby human peasants anyway?

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I'm rather suspicious of their conversion to Ulric at this point, now that we know it was motivated by not wanting to be slowly driven to extinction. (Of course, I hardly hold the decision against them, but others in the Empire might, so they're rather committed.)

 

[kingreaper]

I'm rather suspicious of their conversion to Ulric at this point, now that we know it was motivated by not wanting to be slowly driven to extinction. (Of course, I hardly hold the decision against them, but others in the Empire might, so they're rather committed.)

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They didn't exactly convert - they've added Ulric to the list of names they call upon. It doesn't require a huge change for them to allow one more god among the couple of dozen they already have.

Hell, they've even been explicit with Mathilde that they're not certain Ulric is a new god to them at all - he could just be another name for one they already worship.

All they've really done is acknowledge that Ulric is in fact a god - not made him their primary, secondary, or even tertiary deity.

 

[NeonLights]

I think we're getting further from my original point.
Mathilde has the mindset of a grey wizard: secrecy, twisty thoughts and paranoia, but that hasn't stopped her from putting her best foot forward when helping the colleges as much as she can, either through personal expense (case in point a ton of dwarf favor), and by sharing any applicable knowledge freely (Particularly Mathilde's matrix, Mathilde's Map, Waagh and Peace).
She won't withhold Windherding to give the Grey college some political advantage.

I'm not saying that she didn't enjoy getting her name on the rooms, and the recognition that comes with contributing so much, but I don't think it's her primary motivator. It's a pleasant side effect of the contribution, not the main goal.

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More likely than not. Trading arcane secrets don't seem to be one of the Grey's institutional priorities, and it was Mathilde's discovery. As long as her uses of Windherder comply with the College's charter and do not harm the Colleges interests, it's her business. That said, successfully passing on the knowledge is another case. There's a Staff of Volans, and Ring of Volans, but not a replicable multiwind enchantment paradigm laid down by Volans.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Mathilde has the mindset of a grey wizard: secrecy, twisty thoughts and paranoia, but that hasn't stopped her from putting her best foot forward when helping the colleges as much as she can, either through personal expense (case in point a ton of dwarf favor), and by sharing any applicable knowledge freely (Particularly Mathilde's matrix, Mathilde's Map, Waagh and Peace).
She won't withhold Windherding to give the Grey college some political advantage.

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It should be noted that the Matrix, Map and Waagh and Peace came with both College Rep and College Favour; only the dwarf donation was a donation (which still came with a boatload of Reputation and a lot of goodwill and influence to the point many of the heads of the Colleges thanked Mathilde in person).

Sure Mathilde isn't ruthlessly mercenary with every single action she takes but that doesn't mean she isn't being well compensated for her contributions.

 

[Altom]

All they've really done is acknowledge that Ulric is in fact a god - not made him their primary, secondary, or even tertiary deity.

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Well, they did also make another important step, namely acknowledge that he is a god they would be willing to worship.nQuite an important distinction given the number of deities in WHFB

 

[BurnNote]

It's kind of funny that wizard was just one possible job in character creation. I kind of want an omake where (former) ratcatcher Mathilde meets Thane Dame Lady Magister Mathilde. Though I think alt!Mathilde would've done well for herself too.

I was actually not counting the Grey college, not the Amber one. Mathilde was a Grey Magister and she spent two Kragg crafted artifacts worth of DF on the other colleges, even though the only thing she gets for herself is her name spelled out.
Despite how much she likes having her name on things, it's probably not worth 35 DF just for that.

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I mean, personally the point was to help other wizards, and the empire by extension. If less wizards blow themselves up, I'd consider that favor well spent, even if we didn't also get a huge chunk of rep. Most of it didn't benefit solely her collage, but it's the collages for a reason. They're more similar than different.

Hell, it's not even about wizards vs not-wizards. If Mathilde was a member of the guild of engineers, I'd consider dropping a chunk of favor on that too (though I suspect what we could buy for that would be more restricted, because it'd be guild secrets of the engineers).

 

[A_Somebody]

I think the only thing of importance is actually collating the available information on Waystones. Thats bound to take a while .

Edit: I am thoroughly uninterested in poking around politics. We have only ever interacted with them out of necessity and in pragmatism and while i understand its something that people that want to eventually become supreme matriarch desire, its honestly not a trend i want to buck. If Ulrican help becomes something we see as useful, i would ask them but making overtures just for the sake of making overtures is not why i wanted this project to go off.

I honestly think we should just take stock of the unfamiliar situation and knowledge base available to us, immerse properly in local variant of Eltharin and chat up the Grey Lords.

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...
Waystones is precisely the wrong job if you're allergic to politics. Boney's outright stated that there's no way in hell Mathilde can by herself recreate the masterpiece works of both the Elven and Dwarfen empires at their height. Or even begin to do so. So like 90% of the job is politicking to try and convince people who might have that knowledge, like say the Dwarfen runesmith connections she was explicitly hired for, to help out.

Anyway, the AV tree that I see remaining has three branches, since we've already finished Dwarven Runecraft:

• Dwarven Runecraft
• Teclisean Magic
• Divine Magic
• Big Booms

Of these, I am incredibly uninterested in Big Booms, I am very interested in pursuing Divine Magic research, and Teclisean Magic is something that I'm happy to slowroll. But I do want to return to chipping away at it when we have the opportunity to do personal research. Will that be next turn? Who knows? I'm sympathetic to the arguments of "start strong" for our new job, and a lot depends on our half-action setup (which Boney has said will change) and how much we can leverage our WEBMAT collaborators. So I'd caution the thread about drawing lines in the sand and getting locked-in on something ahead of time. We're at a big transition point, and there are too many unknowns to chart a course with confidence.

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POWERSTONES.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Anyway, the AV tree that I see remaining has three branches, since we've already finished Dwarven Runecraft:

• Dwarven Runecraft
• Teclisean Magic
• Divine Magic
• Big Booms

Of these, I am incredibly uninterested in Big Booms, I am very interested in pursuing Divine Magic research, and Teclisean Magic is something that I'm happy to slowroll. But I do want to return to chipping away at it when we have the opportunity to do personal research. Will that be next turn? Who knows? I'm sympathetic to the arguments of "start strong" for our new job, and a lot depends on our half-action setup (which Boney has said will change) and how much we can leverage our WEBMAT collaborators. So I'd caution the thread about drawing lines in the sand and getting locked-in on something ahead of time. We're at a big transition point, and there are too many unknowns to chart a course with confidence.

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I not very interested in Big Boom, but at the same time would like to have a big boom in the pocket and it would not feel right to leave it undone.

I would also prefer to finish Teclisean Magic before starting Divine magic, especially as I don't want to risk the coin, and we currently don't have that many ways to study how AV reacts to divine magic when we take the coins out of the equation.

 

[picklepikkl]

I would also prefer to finish Teclisean Magic before starting Divine magic, especially as I don't want to risk the coin, and we currently don't have that many ways to study how AV reacts to divine magic when we take the coins out of the equation.

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I am extremely confident that it is not a risk to the Coin:

@BoneyM, before the thread can work itself into too much of a frenzy: is the present line of consideration regarding "which of these divine artifacts can we most afford to lose / gods can we most afford to annoy" something that is at all productive, or should our future selves just vote "Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic" if we want to know the answer and let Mathilde worry about the details of doing so safely?

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Having more divine artefacts could come in handy when doing that research, but the thread doesn't need to micromanage precautions and Mathilde won't just be slam-dunking the coin into a barrel of Vitae.

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Here's a quote from the last time you and I had the discussion of "is this research option safe for the coin?" six months ago. Remember, the vote option is not "pour AV on the coin," it's "Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic." Mathilde will explore all her options and manage her risk like a professional high-energy magical researcher, because she is one.

If you want to start poking it with Teclisean magic (either bopping it with a powerstone or trying to make it into a powerstone) because you think that's a more productive line of research, by all means, that's a valid argument to prioritize it over Divine. But we don't need to worry about losing the Coin; Boney isn't going to take our shiny away for following a prewritten research path we might naturally want to explore, and which we had the option to do a long time ago (this research option was locked only by the initial "Investigate the constantly-dripping blood of the Wisdom's Asp" AV option and "You've got Ranald's Coin around your neck. Study it to see if you can gain an insight into Divine Energy", which was the precursor to the more barebones "Investigate an artefact: Ranald's Coin" option).

 

[Ericwinter]

Before we can try doing much more with AV in regards to Teclisian magic, we probably have to learn a bit more ourselves. Like, trying to make Powerstones out of it kinda requires us to, you know, be able to make Powerstones. And Windherder would probably get the most use out of normal enchantment stuff.

Meanwhile, Divine Magic can probably be done pretty much immediately. Also I'm kinda hoping it will let us supercharge the Coin or something, being the most obvious use.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Before we can try doing much more with AV in regards to Teclisian magic, we probably have to learn a bit more ourselves. Like, trying to make Powerstones out of it kinda requires us to, you know, be able to make Powerstones. And Windherder would probably get the most use out of normal enchantment stuff.

Meanwhile, Divine Magic can probably be done pretty much immediately. Also I'm kinda hoping it will let us supercharge the Coin or something, being the most obvious use.

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Divine magic can be started immediately, but its going to create it's own branches If it follows the same patterns as runes and teclisian magic.

1: Test to see how it reacts

2: try to make uses out of it based off of the results.

its not going to start and end with one AP. its going to take a commitment, the same way runes did and Teclisan is currently.

so I would much rather commit to the one we have started first.

 

[picklepikkl]

Divine magic can be started immediately, but its going to create it's own branches If goes the same way as runes and teclisian magic.

1: Test to see how it reacts

2: try to make uses out of it based off of the results.

its not going to start and end with one AP. its going to take a commitment, the same way runes did and Teclisan is currently.

so I would much rather commit to the one we have started first.

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I mean, I would argue that we've gone further down the Divine Magic track than we have down the Teclisean track. We have done zero actions investigating Teclisean applications; we've taken the initial action, two safety actions, one rune interaction action, and then presented it to Thorek. That's it, five AV actions total (T21, T25, T26, T27, and T28). We've taken one Divine Magic action (studying the coin on T29), which unlocked the previously locked "Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic" which had been sitting on our action list since T22. So if you want to commit to what we've started, that's an argument for Divine Magic, not for the Teclisean applications.

 

[Hydroplatypus]

I'd prefer a teclisean application as the next thing we do, mostly because if we present this super-awesome raw magic to the colleges and all we can say is "look at all the cool things other people can do with it" it would be rather embarrassing. And I'm really hoping to write a paper on AV soon to introduce it to the colleges.

 

[Andres]

I'd prefer a teclisean application as the next thing we do, mostly because if we present this super-awesome raw magic to the colleges and all we can say is "look at all the cool things other people can do with it" it would be rather embarrassing. And I'm really hoping to write a paper on AV soon to introduce it to the colleges.

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I'd prefer to study it as much as possible first, because I much prefer writing a book over writing a paper. Papers get us more favour than an AP equivalent of book, but a book is much more satisfying to publish than an AP equivalent of papers.

 

[Glau]

Anyone have any actual ideas what teclesisn applications might be? We do know quite a lot about both the AV and the teclesian paradigm, but from where I sit AV would interact with it as a problematic version of the waaaghsoak mushrooms- problematic in the sense that all winds are present and that is kinda begging for Dhar. I mean, we could make a temporary storm of magic just by tripping with a gallon jar, but I get the impression people think more is possible.

So, give me some possibilities?

Divine magic is easy- the intent basically seems to be to hand power directly to Ranald like wee did with Mork, and no real intent as to direction or control.

But with teclesian magic we are going to be the ones actually doing something with it.

What can we do with it?

More importantly, where might we find differences that would make AV not just a portable equivalent to going up to the steppes and grabbing one of the rivers of magic out of the sky there?


Maybe there's something possible like blowing up a balloon, where a spell is constructed in a low-magic environment and then fed AV to grow to battle magic sizes once the structure is established?

Idk. I do know that just getting magic in a place where there isn't magic now is useful, but does not require any real research. So I am unclear what there is even to do here, besides a fishing expedition that may well yield nothing.


Oh! Also:

Self-defeating plots aren't Ulgu, they're Tzeentch.

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Where do you get "self-defeating" from?

"It's a Hysh dragon," you say, to blank looks. Right, Dwarves. "To channel a Wind, a being has to cultivate a mindset that aligns with it. For example, fire dragons channel Aqshy, the Wind of Fire, which makes them impulsive and temperamental. Hysh, the Wind of Light which Cython channels, requires a calm and thoughtful mental state."

"And yours?" Kazrik asks curiously.

Deception, skulduggery, and plots. "A focus on ambiguities, mystery, and the unexpected," you say instead, and Kazrik nods thoughtfully.

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We *should* be playing as someone who is getting more and more dominated by a mindset of plots, deception, and skulduggery as our affinity with ulgu grows. I meant to point out that despite the thread's inclination to play as a dwarf, that is very much counter to how Mathilde's mind actually needs to work in order to do the things with magic that she does.